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Post by socketman on Feb 5, 2015 17:24:10 GMT -5
Reran Dirac at lunch and the CS cal file was in the folder , opened Dirac and ran all the sweeps which all looked the same as last nite and the CS cal file was still there at the end and not marked read only. If I leave no file in the folder , you are saying it will create one, Correct?
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Post by rocky500 on Feb 5, 2015 17:31:07 GMT -5
If you have not made the file read only then it is replaced with the standard Emotiva Cal file when you start Dirac. They have the same name.
Trying double clicking on your Cal file in the folder and opening it up so you can see all the text inside. Look at some of the values.
You will see that it has changed back to the Emotiva Cal file.
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Post by socketman on Feb 5, 2015 17:33:08 GMT -5
That's the thing it has not changed back to the original I compared before and after. I will do more testing tonite when I get home. This has me wondering if it is using the new files at all or just automatically using the Emotiva cal file.
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Post by rocky500 on Feb 5, 2015 17:43:10 GMT -5
Here is my path for the file. "ThisPC" and "Mel" will be different on everyones PC.  If you use your new Calibrated Cal file 28KB, you can see the size of it is a lot larger than the Emotiva Cal file 5KB. What is the size of the file after you start Dirac? |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Feb 5, 2015 17:55:54 GMT -5
THIS IS HOW DIRAC IS SUPPOSED TO SOUND! Wow!!!!!!!! Do elaborate please! Mark |
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Lonnie
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Post by Lonnie on Feb 5, 2015 18:06:50 GMT -5
There seems to be a little bit of a misunderstanding about the calibrated microphone we've provided you with Dirac. The calibrated microphone was designed to be used with Dirac Live and your XMC-1. It was never our intention that you should use the microphone by itself as a calibrated microphone, and we never provided you with a calibration curve for use with it. As you should be aware, the frequency response of a microphone can only be calibrated accurately by a single calibration curve for use in a specific orientation. Now, unlike other simpler room calibration programs, Dirac Live uses a variety of information, including the basic frequency response of a system and set of speakers, and other information about the timing and frequency characteristics of the room itself, to calculate its correction filters. And, since this information includes both on-axis and off-axis information, gathered simultaneously, neither curve by itself would provide an entirely accurate characterization of the response of the room. Dirac Live LE was customized to work with the microphone we provided you, and the "house curve" that is built into it, to create a set of correction filters that we believe will produce a pleasing overall sound for most people - with most systems - in most typical rooms. Since most of our customers who've used this version of Dirac Live seem to be quite pleased with the results, we've obviously achieved this goal.
However, a few of our customers have managed to extract the calibration curve used by the software, and have “proven” that it isn't an "accurate off-axis calibration curve for the microphone" - which it was never claimed to be (remember that this is an internal calibration curve used by the software). At this point we’d like to confirm that the internal calibration curve used by Dirac Live LE for Emotiva is NOT an accurate off-axis response curve for our calibrated microphone, and is intended to be used ONLY by the Dirac Live software in conjunction with the provided house curve to calculate correction filters for your XMC-1. We regret if this has caused any confusion.
The Upgraded version of Dirac Live - Dirac Live FULL for Emotiva - can be used with a variety of calibrated microphones. Since calibrated microphones, when purchased separately, typically come with an off-axis calibration curve (which is the most convenient orientation for use with surround-sound applications), Dirac Live Full works with off-axis calibration curves, and we will be providing an accurate off-axis calibration curve for our microphone to go with it (and any other programs you may also choose to use the microphone with).
In addition, we just wanted you to know that we do recognize that not everyone is totally pleased with the correction filters as currently calculated by Dirac Live LE for Emotiva (using the microphone calibration and house curves we provided). This is why the Full version allows you to create your own correction curve (and to use whatever calibrated microphone and calibration curve you like). This will allow you to tailor both the measurements, and the correction filters, precisely to your personal preferences.
Lonnie
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Post by jmilton on Feb 5, 2015 18:35:03 GMT -5
THIS IS HOW DIRAC IS SUPPOSED TO SOUND! Wow!!!!!!!! Do elaborate please! Mark What part of WOW! don't you understand?  ? |
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Post by rocky500 on Feb 5, 2015 18:42:13 GMT -5
That's the thing it has not changed back to the original I compared before and after. I will do more testing tonite when I get home. This has me wondering if it is using the new files at all or just automatically using the Emotiva cal file. I sent you an email of a youtube link, showing it on my system. |
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Post by rswood on Feb 5, 2015 19:02:22 GMT -5
There seems to be a little bit of a misunderstanding about the calibrated microphone we've provided you with Dirac. The calibrated microphone was designed to be used with Dirac Live and your XMC-1. It was never our intention that you should use the microphone by itself as a calibrated microphone, and we never provided you with a calibration curve for use with it. As you should be aware, the frequency response of a microphone can only be calibrated accurately by a single calibration curve for use in a specific orientation. Now, unlike other simpler room calibration programs, Dirac Live uses a variety of information, including the basic frequency response of a system and set of speakers, and other information about the timing and frequency characteristics of the room itself, to calculate its correction filters. And, since this information includes both on-axis and off-axis information, gathered simultaneously, neither curve by itself would provide an entirely accurate characterization of the response of the room. Dirac Live LE was customized to work with the microphone we provided you, and the "house curve" that is built into it, to create a set of correction filters that we believe will produce a pleasing overall sound for most people - with most systems - in most typical rooms. Since most of our customers who've used this version of Dirac Live seem to be quite pleased with the results, we've obviously achieved this goal. However, a few of our customers have managed to extract the calibration curve used by the software, and have “proven” that it isn't an "accurate off-axis calibration curve for the microphone" - which it was never claimed to be (remember that this is an internal calibration curve used by the software). At this point we’d like to confirm that the internal calibration curve used by Dirac Live LE for Emotiva is NOT an accurate off-axis response curve for our calibrated microphone, and is intended to be used ONLY by the Dirac Live software in conjunction with the provided house curve to calculate correction filters for your XMC-1. We regret if this has caused any confusion. The Upgraded version of Dirac Live - Dirac Live FULL for Emotiva - can be used with a variety of calibrated microphones. Since calibrated microphones, when purchased separately, typically come with an off-axis calibration curve (which is the most convenient orientation for use with surround-sound applications), Dirac Live Full works with off-axis calibration curves, and we will be providing an accurate off-axis calibration curve for our microphone to go with it (and any other programs you may also choose to use the microphone with). In addition, we just wanted you to know that we do recognize that not everyone is totally pleased with the correction filters as currently calculated by Dirac Live LE for Emotiva (using the microphone calibration and house curves we provided). This is why the Full version allows you to create your own correction curve (and to use whatever calibrated microphone and calibration curve you like). This will allow you to tailor both the measurements, and the correction filters, precisely to your personal preferences. Lonnie Lonnie, just so I understand what you are saying, the file you have provided is not accurate for off axis, but correct me if I am wrong, since we are using 9 different measurements aren't most of those readings off axis from one speaker or another? Why would you not give us an accurate off axis file to begin with, if it more Acurate? Why do we have to spend $100.00 to get an accurate filter. (I planed on getting it anyway). Why when Tony started this thread you dident just explain what you just explained, it would have saved a lot time for a group of people who love you products? |
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Post by rswood on Feb 5, 2015 19:05:54 GMT -5
Sorry for my terrible spelling on my previous post, damn I Pad while driving (just kidding).
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Post by socketman on Feb 5, 2015 19:22:36 GMT -5
Sorry for my terrible spelling on my previous post, damn I Pad while driving (just kidding). That made me laugh. Some old guy was listening in on my conversation at the gas pumps one day in Banf National park so I spoke up and told the gas attendant I was goin 240KM through the park with my Daytona turbo and I had the kids and wife with me. Best day ever. |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Feb 5, 2015 19:39:56 GMT -5
What part of WOW! don't you understand? ? Lol! I planned on elaborating after listening to a few more pieces of music and cut scenes from my go to movies. My advice, and I understand Lonnie's position since the calibration file provided by Dirac LE still sounds very good, is to download the CS 90 degree version provided by Socketman and rerun Dirac. From the measurements the CS version doesn't have that crazy drop-off > 10 kHz. In fact, very little correction is needed from the midrange on to the highs...this translates into a much more natural sound in Both music and movies. The bass peaks are much less severe so once again less correction needed...this results in my systems bass being better than ever - tight, controlled and it even shakes the couch (never did that before). Every music track sounds better...it's crazy. The mid-range is so smooth, I feel like with Dirac, my F208 approaches the Studio2. This is by far the best my system has ever sounded. And I'm back to not needing the $99 upgrade  . NOW I understand the hype behind Dirac and I already knew how awesome the XMC-1 was. Let me know your calibration runs with the new file...I'm sure you guys will be as ecstatic as me! |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Feb 5, 2015 20:42:43 GMT -5
LscThanks for the detail! Sounds like Tony's and socketman's work made a good thing a lot better! Awesome! Mark
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Feb 5, 2015 21:02:22 GMT -5
lonnieI certainly have never thought the mic provided was for anything other than use with DIRAC, and I don't think that ansat or socketman thought that either. And I am sure that trying to figure out how to make the mic works outside Dirac was never their objective. So, let's set that aside for a moment. And that aside, something you say vs. what Tony (ansat) have shown has me confused. Maybe you can clear it up for me. So, here goes...Tony has learned that the calibration curve provided appears to be one for a mic used on axis (and for a mic well known to Dirac). Emotiva says to use the mic off axis. Understanding full well that on and off axis mic response is different, I would think that using a mic off axis with a calibration curve intended for on axis would lead to errors in the results on frequency response...which is a key foundation of all room correction systems (and yes, we all know Dirac does more...). Isn't that correct? And as you say, neither the pure on axis nor the pure off axis would be correct, so the true calibration curve would have to be some combination of both. And if so...why does the provided curve match the on axis curve of the mic provided commonly by Dirac for other uses? It would seem the odds would be against that being the right one. And in any case, are you still saying that 100% for sure that the calibration curve provided is correct, or are you looking into it to reconfirm it is? Quite frankly (and I know you don't want to hear this, but...and I type this with all due respect...) the data from Tony and socketman look pretty compelling that something isn't quite right. And if it isn't, it seems like a super easy fix. As such, I can't understand why you appear to have your heels dug in so firmly in your responses. Thanks for any clarification you can offer. Mark
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Post by ansat on Feb 5, 2015 21:05:30 GMT -5
What part of WOW! don't you understand? ? Lol! I planned on elaborating after listening to a few more pieces of music and cut scenes from my go to movies. My advice, and I understand Lonnie's position since the calibration file provided by Dirac LE still sounds very good, is to download the CS 90 degree version provided by Socketman and rerun Dirac. From the measurements the CS version doesn't have that crazy drop-off > 10 kHz. In fact, very little correction is needed from the midrange on to the highs...this translates into a much more natural sound in Both music and movies. The bass peaks are much less severe so once again less correction needed...this results in my systems bass being better than ever - tight, controlled and it even shakes the couch (never did that before). Every music track sounds better...it's crazy. The mid-range is so smooth, I feel like with Dirac, my F208 approaches the Studio2. This is by far the best my system has ever sounded. And I'm back to not needing the $99 upgrade . NOW I understand the hype behind Dirac and I already knew how awesome the XMC-1 was. Let me know your calibration runs with the new file...I'm sure you guys will be as ecstatic as me! It's good to hear. But don't count that upgrade down and out just yet. From what I understand, it will be worth every penny of 100$. After all my research and a fantastic sounding system (after a little tweaking) I fully intend to get the full version. Having a different curve for the front 3, then the rear 4 or even all 7, or setting dirac to just leave the highs alone. Super excited. Tony Tony |
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Post by ansat on Feb 5, 2015 21:35:11 GMT -5
Are you able to use both files with Dirac using a Emotiva mic? Which one is consider best? In reality the difference is minimal. There is just a lot of posts that reference the math calibration. |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Feb 6, 2015 1:31:08 GMT -5
There seems to be a little bit of a misunderstanding about the calibrated microphone we've provided you with Dirac. The calibrated microphone was designed to be used with Dirac Live and your XMC-1. It was never our intention that you should use the microphone by itself as a calibrated microphone, and we never provided you with a calibration curve for use with it. As you should be aware, the frequency response of a microphone can only be calibrated accurately by a single calibration curve for use in a specific orientation. Now, unlike other simpler room calibration programs, Dirac Live uses a variety of information, including the basic frequency response of a system and set of speakers, and other information about the timing and frequency characteristics of the room itself, to calculate its correction filters. And, since this information includes both on-axis and off-axis information, gathered simultaneously, neither curve by itself would provide an entirely accurate characterization of the response of the room. Dirac Live LE was customized to work with the microphone we provided you, and the "house curve" that is built into it, to create a set of correction filters that we believe will produce a pleasing overall sound for most people - with most systems - in most typical rooms. Since most of our customers who've used this version of Dirac Live seem to be quite pleased with the results, we've obviously achieved this goal. However, a few of our customers have managed to extract the calibration curve used by the software, and have “proven” that it isn't an "accurate off-axis calibration curve for the microphone" - which it was never claimed to be (remember that this is an internal calibration curve used by the software). At this point we’d like to confirm that the internal calibration curve used by Dirac Live LE for Emotiva is NOT an accurate off-axis response curve for our calibrated microphone, and is intended to be used ONLY by the Dirac Live software in conjunction with the provided house curve to calculate correction filters for your XMC-1. We regret if this has caused any confusion. The Upgraded version of Dirac Live - Dirac Live FULL for Emotiva - can be used with a variety of calibrated microphones. Since calibrated microphones, when purchased separately, typically come with an off-axis calibration curve (which is the most convenient orientation for use with surround-sound applications), Dirac Live Full works with off-axis calibration curves, and we will be providing an accurate off-axis calibration curve for our microphone to go with it (and any other programs you may also choose to use the microphone with). In addition, we just wanted you to know that we do recognize that not everyone is totally pleased with the correction filters as currently calculated by Dirac Live LE for Emotiva (using the microphone calibration and house curves we provided). This is why the Full version allows you to create your own correction curve (and to use whatever calibrated microphone and calibration curve you like). This will allow you to tailor both the measurements, and the correction filters, precisely to your personal preferences. Lonnie Can you provide the off axis calibration file? I'd like to compare it to Socketman's calibration file, then try it out. |
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Post by Mike Ronesia on Feb 6, 2015 2:07:21 GMT -5
What I got out of Lonnies post is Emo and Dirac knew exactly what they were doing (no big surprise to me). They provided a package that included a mic, cal file and Dirac curve that they felt made the XMC-1 sound as good as possible considering all of the possible setups out there. As much science as there is put into reproducing sound, there is also a lot of art in the process as well. I found most people aren't as happy with For the one size fits all solution Dirac live LE is, they took artistic licence in order to bring a product to market that they felt was the best solution. Like anything, it is not the perfect fit for everyone and the full version of Dirac live is for people that want to customise their sound. This could be because of their speakers and how they work or just because they want more LF or whatever. My point is, no single solution is going to work for everyone. They provided what they felt was the best single option and will be providing more flexibility for those that need it.
I have tried Tony's math file and of course the Emo file and while they sound different, both sound good with different strengths and weaknesses. As of now I am using the Emo file and am very happy. I will upgrade when it becomes available and see if I can make it better my speakers, old ears and my preferences. As of now it sounds amazing to me, but I look forward to playing with the full version when it's out just because it's interesting.
Cheers
Mark
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dubs
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Post by dubs on Feb 6, 2015 7:38:48 GMT -5
What I got out of Lonnies post is Emo and Dirac knew exactly what they were doing (no big surprise to me). They provided a package that included a mic, cal file and Dirac curve that they felt made the XMC-1 sound as good as possible considering all of the possible setups out there. As much science as there is put into reproducing sound, there is also a lot of art in the process as well. I found most people aren't as happy with For the one size fits all solution Dirac live LE is, they took artistic licence in order to bring a product to market that they felt was the best solution. Like anything, it is not the perfect fit for everyone and the full version of Dirac live is for people that want to customise their sound. This could be because of their speakers and how they work or just because they want more LF or whatever. My point is, no single solution is going to work for everyone. They provided what they felt was the best single option and will be providing more flexibility for those that need it. I have tried Tony's math file and of course the Emo file and while they sound different, both sound good with different strengths and weaknesses. As of now I am using the Emo file and am very happy. I will upgrade when it becomes available and see if I can make it better my speakers, old ears and my preferences. As of now it sounds amazing to me, but I look forward to playing with the full version when it's out just because it's interesting. Cheers Mark I agree with Mike but also think how blessed we are to have guys like Tony and Socketman willing to work so hard and spend their on money to help us all have a better sounding system here on the lounge. Mike is right that each system and situation is different but again their hard work has made a huge difference in my system. Emo produced a great system for all of us, those guys hard work made it much better for a lot of us. I can't thank them enough for the help they have been to me and to my ears. I look forward to when the full version comes out and they get a hold of it. I may not understand 99.99% of the graphs and jargon they speak but I do understand the results. Hopefully they will still be willing to share they'er hard work to benefit us all. I can only suggest that everyone give there mic-cals a try and make the decisions for themselves what sounds the best. Trust me, if I can do it anyone can. |
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Post by rogersch on Feb 6, 2015 8:20:04 GMT -5
This morning I did a DIRAC re-run. I slightly changed the measurement positions (a bit closer to the main spot) and I reduced the MIC sensitivity and hence increased the test tone output a bit more compared to previous measurements. Here are the results (only showing the front speakers). ORIGINAL EMOTIVA CAL FILE:  CROSS SPECTRUM CAL FILE:  I can conclude that the result of the CS CAL file resembles more to original output level of the speakers, especially in the higher frequencies. First listening results is that I liked the sound of DIRAC with CS CAL file a bit more. There is some more deep bass and the higher frequencies are bit less prominent. For the time being I'll keep the calibration with the CS CAL file. Just I bit strange is the small "dip" around 600 Hz in the spectrum before correction. You can see that the CS CAL file data has a slight change in sensitivity in that area. Strange. Anxiously waiting for the DIRAC Full version. Probably I'll sent my EMM-1 mic to Cross Spectrum for calibration (if shipping costs to and from USA - NL are not to crazy.). Again very big thanks to everybody who have contributed to make this happen. |
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