hemster
Global Moderator 
Particle Manufacturer
...still listening... still watching
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Post by hemster on Nov 22, 2015 15:23:30 GMT -5
Settle down folks. There's no need to get your knickers in a twist. The OP asked for opinions, not facts. The thing about opinions is... everyone has them, some have several. One doesn't need to agree with another's viewpoint and everyone is free to express theirs. Lastly, remember, this is a hobby. We're discussing audio gear, not life support systems. In the grand scheme of things, keep some perspective as it's just not worth raising your blood pressure, even a single point. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it!  |
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Post by novisnick on Nov 22, 2015 15:28:22 GMT -5
The part about being a politician brought it to mind actually, I haven't heard too many speakers in my days. No opinion on many of them. Edit; Im NOT turning down offers to hear different speakers/gear!!  |
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Post by yves on Nov 22, 2015 15:43:48 GMT -5
Settle down folks. There's no need to get your knickers in a twist. The OP asked for opinions, not facts. The thing about opinions is... everyone has them, some have several. One doesn't need to agree with another's viewpoint and everyone is free to express theirs. Lastly, remember, this is a hobby. We're discussing audio gear, not life support systems. In the grand scheme of things, keep some perspective as it's just not worth raising your blood pressure, even a single point. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it! No, that's not your opinion. Rather, that's a fact! |
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Post by vneal on Nov 22, 2015 16:31:11 GMT -5
I am not familar with the Canton 890.2 So I did a search. Stereophile gave them a rave review. But that was back in 2005. I am sure they were a good set of loudspeakers. Time marches on. Being they are discontinued or replaced with newer models I suspect I will never have the honor of hearing a pair
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Post by bluemeanies on Nov 22, 2015 18:33:37 GMT -5
That's not rude at all. Rather, that's just you pointscoring by taking a part of what I said out of its context.[/quote Your out of context comment...that's a ploticians response...do you read much? In the end I have reverted and keep in mind this famous quote. Hope you can understand it. "Never argue with stupid people,they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience"...Mark Twain Mark was a famous author. Regards, The Brat |
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Post by yves on Nov 23, 2015 19:20:46 GMT -5
I am not familar with the Canton 890.2 So I did a search. Stereophile gave them a rave review. But that was back in 2005. I am sure they were a good set of loudspeakers. Time marches on. Being they are discontinued or replaced with newer models I suspect I will never have the honor of hearing a pair The Canton Vento 890.2 DC was released the same year that I made my purchase, in 2011, and a successor to this speaker was released recently this year. Just as an aside, Kal Rubinson reviewed the Canton Reference 3.2 DC here: www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/canton_reference_32_dc_loudspeaker |
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klinemj
Emo VIPs 
Official Emofest Scribe
Posts: 15,090
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Post by klinemj on Nov 23, 2015 19:53:16 GMT -5
I have heard B&W speakers I like, and I have heard ones I really didn't like at all. I even own some old B&W 202's and I still really like them for what they are.
Then again, I have heard the 802d series in two situations. In one, I really hated them...I mean hated. The mids were buried in a hole, the bass was muddy, and the highs were the only really good thing there was. On the right music, they sounded fine. If the recording was the slightest bit marginal...it was awful overall. The very same speakers in another room with another amp sounded quite delightful. I think the ones that didn't sound good needed an amp that could handle them...and from a magazine a friend and I were looking at - that version of the 802d's dropped way down in impedance right in the heart of the midrange. And, the room in which the bad sounding 802d's were placed had all sorts of issues. The other room/amp combo was night and day different.
Big Dan had some quite fine B&W's in his office last I visited, and they sounded amazing.
That said...I still like my Maggies over anything I have ever heard.
Mark
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Post by LuisV on Nov 23, 2015 20:17:48 GMT -5
Settle down folks. There's no need to get your knickers in a twist. The OP asked for opinions, not facts. The thing about opinions is... everyone has them, some have several. One doesn't need to agree with another's viewpoint and everyone is free to express theirs. Lastly, remember, this is a hobby. We're discussing audio gear, not life support systems. In the grand scheme of things, keep some perspective as it's just not worth raising your blood pressure, even a single point. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it! Thanks hemster and yes, let's not get carried away here. It's a hobby that we all enjoy, opinions might flare up from time to time and things may get heated, but lets hug it out and move on. Cool? |
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jlamo
Sensei
Its a good day!
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Post by jlamo on Nov 23, 2015 21:03:57 GMT -5
Briefly ,I heard a pair from Sonus faber Cremona (think that's the model) and thought they sounded good . Thiel's 2.7 may work for your size room and many have good things to say about them.
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klinemj
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Official Emofest Scribe
Posts: 15,090
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Post by klinemj on Nov 23, 2015 21:13:08 GMT -5
LOVE the Cremona's. Great speaker.
Mark
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hemster
Global Moderator
Particle Manufacturer
...still listening... still watching
Posts: 51,951
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Post by hemster on Nov 23, 2015 22:02:04 GMT -5
Settle down folks. There's no need to get your knickers in a twist. The OP asked for opinions, not facts. The thing about opinions is... everyone has them, some have several. One doesn't need to agree with another's viewpoint and everyone is free to express theirs. Lastly, remember, this is a hobby. We're discussing audio gear, not life support systems. In the grand scheme of things, keep some perspective as it's just not worth raising your blood pressure, even a single point. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it! Thanks hemster and yes, let's not get carried away here. It's a hobby that we all enjoy, opinions might flare up from time to time and things may get heated, but lets hug it out and move on. Cool? Cool with me. <-o-> |
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Post by bluemeanies on Nov 24, 2015 7:27:31 GMT -5
B&W speakers are not for everyone. Thru my years of listening to music I have spoken with people who LOVE them or HATE them...there never seems to be a middle ground. While I was shopping for new speakers a few months ago my journey took me to a store in the BIG APPLE. I was looking specficly for a demo model of 803diamonds/803d2's. Neither were available at this particular store but the sales person was very personable and offer my friend and I a demonstration of the 802D's with tube amplifiers. I forget the name of the tube amplifiers.
The room was long and narrow having an eight foot ceiling. While Anthony was a great host answering all of my questions and never pressuring me into a sale since I could not even afford the 802's the bass seemed muddy, while the midrange sounded restricted in the room.
In the end I walk away with memories of listening to the 802d's in a room that was more in tune with those speakers and they sounded flawless. Most definitely this demo was disappointing and would not make a good impression to anyone interested in B&W. I came away as I have in many demonstrations realizing it is not just the speaker, amplifier, DAC or processor. The room and ascoustics play a vital roll with ALL SPEAKERS.
I demoed my 803d's in what I would consider to be a very small room. Especially for a home audio store. However I had heard the 803diamonds many times in more than adequate rooms and ascoustic stable walls and ceilings and floors.
They are in my ears PERFECT and offer a real view in true lifelike sound.
As with ANY speaker room dimensions, flooring, walls and ascoustics and diffusion are all part of the equation to attain that perfect sound for YOUR ears.
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Post by vneal on Nov 24, 2015 9:04:10 GMT -5
Speakers make the most difference in the sound chain. As such certain brands have a particular sound. No speaker is for everyone.When auditioning speakers if a home trial is not available. Bring music that is to your liking to an audition ask the store for a private listening make sure the equipment is similar to what you are currently using. I personally like the sound of current B & W models. But I also like Revel, Wilson, Legacy, Sonus Faber, and probably another dozen or so. There are alot of fine sounding loud speakers out there. And there are many under performers also. Choose with your pocketbook
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Nov 24, 2015 10:18:00 GMT -5
I gotta chime in here..... if you want to hear what a speaker really sounds like, then DON'T listen to it on a tube amp. ALL tube power amps with output transformers have a very low damping factor (compared to almost all solid state amps). This means that most modern speakers, which are designed to be used with amps that have a relatively high damping factor, will sound muddy with most tube amps. (This is not always true; some speakers work just fine with tube amps, and some people specifically like the way they sound. However, if you're not familiar with the particular amp, or with the way tube amps sound in general, and you want to hear how THE SPEAKER sounds, then you really shouldn't audition it on a tube amp unless you specifically plan to use it with one.... by doing so you're introducing way too many major variables into the situation.) B&W speakers are not for everyone. Thru my years of listening to music I have spoken with people who LOVE them or HATE them...there never seems to be a middle ground. While I was shopping for new speakers a few months ago my journey took me to a store in the BIG APPLE. I was looking specficly for a demo model of 803diamonds/803d2's. Neither were available at this particular store but the sales person was very personable and offer my friend and I a demonstration of the 802D's with tube amplifiers. I forget the name of the tube amplifiers. The room was long and narrow having an eight foot ceiling. While Anthony was a great host answering all of my questions and never pressuring me into a sale since I could not even afford the 802's the bass seemed muddy, while the midrange sounded restricted in the room. In the end I walk away with memories of listening to the 802d's in a room that was more in tune with those speakers and they sounded flawless. Most definitely this demo was disappointing and would not make a good impression to anyone interested in B&W. I came away as I have in many demonstrations realizing it is not just the speaker, amplifier, DAC or processor. The room and ascoustics play a vital roll with ALL SPEAKERS. I demoed my 803d's in what I would consider to be a very small room. Especially for a home audio store. However I had heard the 803diamonds many times in more than adequate rooms and ascoustic stable walls and ceilings and floors. They are in my ears PERFECT and offer a real view in true lifelike sound. As with ANY speaker room dimensions, flooring, walls and ascoustics and diffusion are all part of the equation to attain that perfect sound for YOUR ears. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Nov 24, 2015 11:15:52 GMT -5
I must reluctantly agree with Mr. L - tube amps' output transformers DO alter the sound of the amp/speaker combination. Some speakers LOVE those transformers - others, not so much. And curiously enough, you can't always tell which speakers are which. That said, if you listen to ALL your speakers with a tube amp (or a solid-state one), then you're comparing apples-to-apples and should get a good feel for which speakers like THAT amplifier. Many, many manufacturers make fine speakers. Everyone has their own preferences (depending, mostly on what sounds good to their own ears). Technical specs don't really tell how a speaker will sound. I could have a single-driver speaker ruler flat from 20 to 20KHz, with perfect phase & dispersion characteristics. But if that speaker began distorting at 60 dB, then it would sound horrid in most rooms. Speaker manufacturers normally measure their speakers at levels that produce the best numbers. Then they mysteriously delete the test condition info, so you can't really tell what the numbers mean. Some companies are worse than others - Definitive Technology, for instance, has the most whimsical "measurements" ever seen. This doesn't mean that their speakers aren't any good - it only means that the numbers they publish are useless for comparison to anything else in the world. Even if there WAS a standardized measurement suite, there would still be great debate over what the measurements meant in the real world. The Canadian National Labs with Mr. Floyd Toole concluded after lots of measuring that wide dispersion was a virtue. And in a laboratory setting, it may have been. In real world living rooms, however, that are often asymmetrical side to side and in every other way, the "virtue" of wide dispersion is anything but. So what speakers should YOU buy? The ones that you like! And before you buy them, you'd better be allowed to try them in your own listening room - because how the speakers sounded in the showroom WILL be different than how they sound at home. This is the very best reason to cultivate audio buddies. You get to hear different systems in different rooms and the more you've heard, the more you'll know what YOU like. I've a few brands of speakers that have consistently impressed me. The ones that I like may not be (at all) the ones that you like. Obviously, I can't like ANY speaker that I've never heard. And even if I like the speakers, it doesn't mean that they'll work in my room. Speakers I've known and liked: Thiel Axiom Magnepan Martin-Logan Infinity (IRS) Avalon (Symbol) Revel (all of them) Klipsch (Heritage series only) Polk (the ones with ring tweeters) Paradigm (thanks, novisnick) AR (the old model 11s) and others So what? Probably nothing. Your ears aren't mine. LOTS of folks just LOVE B&W speakers, but they've never sounded right to me (except for the diamond-tweeter models). JBL, Altec Lansing, and Cerwin Vega speakers always turned me off, but lots of folks love them too. YMMV. It would be a boring world if we all liked the same stuff. Boomzilla |
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Post by copperpipe on Nov 24, 2015 12:29:16 GMT -5
That said, if you listen to ALL your speakers with a tube amp (or a solid-state one), then you're comparing apples-to-apples and should get a good That's not really the case. Read Keith's post again; some speakers perform horribly (compared to others) on a tube amp simply because they require the high damping factor. So when comparing speakers, it's better to use a high quality emo amp vs a tube amp on the speakers you're comparing, for an apples-to-apples speaker shootout, unless of course you intend to use the tube amp as the final amp in your setup. |
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Post by casey01 on Nov 24, 2015 12:46:11 GMT -5
It would seem you, like many others, have faced the ongoing, rather frustrating issue of trying to determine in a retail environment whether or not a specific speaker is really an upgrade or not and you never really know until you can get it in to your home and compare it to what you already have. I found this out years ago and it was rather an eye(and ear)opening experience in that because more often than not, a lot of retailers won't even allow the customer to do it to begin with and speaker choice is really quite subjective anyway. Often when listening to a certain speaker in a store that appealed to me, once I had the opportunity to bring it home, I found that more often than not, when comparing it to my current set-up in my environment, the vast majority of time, the expenditure was not worth it. With their 30 day return policy, it makes the online companies look much more attractive negating the concept that some in the HT press have that "bricks and mortar" outlets still have a meaningful purpose. In my mind when you have a store that is pushing certain brands and so-called sales staff that knock equipment they don't sell, as a result, other than a recent 4K monitor that I just purchased, I haven't purchased anything from a retail outlet in years.
As far as recommendations are concerned(and there are tons of choices out there), based on my own experience over the years and based on your maximum budget, if you have the space and want to go really big, then I might recommend the Axiom M100s and if, as you say, 75% of your listening is movies, go the extra step in your center channel with a matching full-range like the VP180. This still brings you well under your budget and with the extra you could, if you want to, with Axioms myriad of options, upgrade the finish. There is also the option of the relatively new line of speakers from the high end amp manufacturer "Bryston" designed by them and built by Axiom. These are somewhat more expensive but have received rave reviews, in fact, I read one recently where the reviewer had a couple of officianados(both of whom that had two channel systems of their own in the "6 figure" range) in to listen to the newer, less expensive, line of Brystons that sold for $2800/pr. yet, without knowing the price and who the manufacturer was, after listening to them for awhile and when asked what they thought they cost, they believed they were listening to speakers whose price was at least in the $10-12,000 range and were shocked when they were told the actual MSRP.
Talk about subjective!
Good luck in your search!
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Post by bluemeanies on Nov 24, 2015 14:16:25 GMT -5
With all do respect to EVERYONE.
First, I do not believe I mentioned that all of my demonstrations with the B&W803diamonds were with tube amplifiers.
Boom you said that B&W speakers never really sounded right to you except for the diamond series...that is something I have read from many people...from this side of the fence it is part of the faction of people who do not like (hate to say it) the B&W sound.
There is nothing wrong with not liking B&W's. I have listened to and liked a couple of speakers that Boom has mentioned notably Paradigm and Polk.
Second I am not on a search for speakers...as per signature I have the b&w803D. I did mention about my search a few months ago which I took a year to make my final decision.
Lastly gentleman, all speakers have imperfections do partially to room ascoustics, amplifiers and pre-amps not to mention the nature of the speaker itself.
If you want to put any speaker or amplifier on the bench I will admit you can and will find flaws...AND if I am being told that tube amplifiers are altering my music that I am listening to with my EARS then I will take it. High damping factor or not. Coloration...okay sock it to me.
I have had XPA 1's mono-blocks and the only thing that was gained with those beasts was power. I did not have the depth, warmth or lifelike artist performance as I have with the Bob Latino mono-blocks...BTW no distortion and I am running my m125's in triode mode at 35watts per channel. My room is approximately 1430 cubic feet
With respect to Emotiva I think that there amplifiers are a great piece of equipment for HT and playing music at excessively high levels.
Emotiva amplifiers are a good bang for your dollar but for me the XPA's just did not bring what I wanted to the table. Emo's customer service is very supportive, quick and helpful.....but
If you want to be technical do it with your ears not on the work bench.
I am a happy camper when it comes to my 2channel listening with GRACE and the m125's....when I am listening to a symphony piece or an artist hand sliding up and down the neck of the guitar playing jazz.... they are in my room center stage with a three dimensional sound.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Nov 24, 2015 14:17:14 GMT -5
Since B&W came out with version IIs for the CM10s, 803Ds, and 802Ds I would consider a used pair of B&W 802Ds. I've looked a bit and finding a used pair of the original 802D is not that easy. They show up now and then at fairly high prices, and the natural cherry I'd be interested in is pretty much nonexistent. Though I'd agree, if you could find them they'd certainly be a contender. The current version of the 802D is actually the 802D3. |
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Post by vneal on Nov 24, 2015 16:48:05 GMT -5
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