DC-1 vs XSP-1 as preamp driving XPA-1L's

[jumper]

I have the DC-1 with a pair of XPA-1L's and I'm still on the fence about trying the XSP-1 in my two channel system. I know I can return the XSP-1 but I don't like having money tied up and having the hassle of shipping back, I'll do it but I like to research quite a bit before hand to cut down on the likelihood. Does the DC-1 as a pre-amp have the same power to drive a pair of XPA-1L's as the XSP-1? At this point I'm just trying to find out if the DC-1 has any deficiencies as a pre-amp that the XSP-1 handles noticeably better. If I don't spend money on the XSP-1 the funds can go towards a single or pair of subwoofers that I'd use to help smooth out the bass response in my awkwardly shaped listening room. Any thoughts?

[jeffnyc]

I use the DC-1 to XPA-1s, seems to work well. I'm curious also how the XSP-1 betters this set up. I only have one source right now and don't need bass management at the moment.

[garbulky]

Hi jumper
I haven't been able to try the DC-1 and the XSP-1 in my room. When I tried the XSP-1 in my room with an XDA-2, the improvement was pretty obvious (where I could tell the difference in a blind test - something I don't usually say).
When I tried the XSP-1 and DC-1 in a friend's room with his XPA-1 L, the results were a little wierd. Basically, we didn't like it. The voices sounded recessed and muddiness in general. We weren't able to go direct to the amps with the DC-1 to see what was causing it.

Now the oppo 105 and the XSP-1 and XPA-1 L in the same room had fantastic results. Since it is a single test, I wouldn't go around declaring the two a bad match....just telling you my finding. My friend novisnick has the DC-1 and XPA-1 L's (and XPR-1) and an XSP-1 going with fantastic results according to his reports.

Now as a pre-amp .... the DC-1 is superior to other DACs direct to amp I've tried. It has dynamics and clarity without sounding strained at normal volumes. But it can't out do the XSP-1 at its best. WHere the XSP-1 wins out is in scaling volume and a more "solid" sounding soundstage but not by a tremendous amount. There is a slight recessed treble but only very slight. At soft volumes, it does better, and when you crank it - with the XSP-1, you feel like you can keep cranking and it just gets better, while with the DC-1 things don't scale quite as nicely. It does however scale better than other DAC to amps I've tried.

I guess there's really no way to tell how it will work without you trying it.
Now you mentioned a pair of subwoofers. That's a hard choice. On one hand, you want a solid pre-amp (which the DC-1 actually does reasonably well at.) I would vote for subwoofer pair. Like a powersound XS15 pair sounds like a great idea.

[jumper]

Thanks garbulky - I've seen you mention this several times on the forum and have definitely taken note. But I'm also glad several people also prefer the XSP-1 in the system sq-wise. So it's a tough decision. And it's not totally either or in regards to the XSP-1 vs getting subwoofers, it's just about which I put the funds towards first. My mains are only -2db at 25hz and I do music only on this system so it's not like I'm desperate for a sub(s). I'm just super curious what the XSP-1 would add for me or if it would be so transparent I wouldn't even know it's there, in which case it might be a waste since I only have one source.

[AudioHTIT]

You're in an area where it really comes down to personal preference, I've prefered DACs directly to my amps without a preamp. To me the main advantages of adding an XSP-1 are: a great phono section, additional analog inputs, processor loop, and good bass management - in other words, features.

[jumper]

Feb 9, 2015 20:02:13 GMT -5 AudioHTIT said:

You're in an area where it really comes down to personal preference, I've prefered DACs directly to my amps without a preamp. To me the main advantages of adding an XSP-1 are: a great phono section, additional analog inputs, processor loop, and good bass management - in other words, features.

Precisely. In my case I would just be adding it for whatever perceived sq improvement it provides since I don't listen to vinyl, only have need for a single input, no need for a processor loop, and I could use the built-in bass management on whatever future subs I get. I can see myself using the hf and lf trims since the DC-1 has no eq although I think direct mode (disables the trims) on the XSP-1 is the only way to remain fully differential (if that makes a difference). I'm just really intrigued by reviews that say there is a sound quality improvement.

[deltadube]

Feb 9, 2015 13:33:08 GMT -5 garbulky said:

Hi jumper
I haven't been able to try the DC-1 and the XSP-1 in my room. When I tried the XSP-1 in my room with an XDA-2, the improvement was pretty obvious (where I could tell the difference in a blind test - something I don't usually say).
When I tried the XSP-1 and DC-1 in a friend's room with his XPA-1 L, the results were a little wierd. Basically, we didn't like it. The voices sounded recessed and muddiness in general. We weren't able to go direct to the amps with the DC-1 to see what was causing it.

Now the oppo 105 and the XSP-1 and XPA-1 L in the same room had fantastic results. Since it is a single test, I wouldn't go around declaring the two a bad match....just telling you my finding. My friend novisnick has the DC-1 and XPA-1 L's (and XPR-1) and an XSP-1 going with fantastic results according to his reports.

Now as a pre-amp .... the DC-1 is superior to other DACs direct to amp I've tried. It has dynamics and clarity without sounding strained at normal volumes. But it can't out do the XSP-1 at its best. WHere the XSP-1 wins out is in scaling volume and a more "solid" sounding soundstage but not by a tremendous amount. There is a slight recessed treble but only very slight. At soft volumes, it does better, and when you crank it - with the XSP-1, you feel like you can keep cranking and it just gets better, while with the DC-1 things don't scale quite as nicely. It does however scale better than other DAC to amps I've tried.

I guess there's really no way to tell how it will work without you trying it.
Now you mentioned a pair of subwoofers. That's a hard choice. On one hand, you want a solid pre-amp (which the DC-1 actually does reasonably well at.) I would vote for subwoofer pair. Like a powersound XS15 pair sounds like a great idea.

so that's my problem I got the xsp 1 and I just keep on cranking it up!!!! lol

think you need the xsp 1 for the subs how you going to plug subs into the dc 1 for bass management

so get both xs15se x2 and xsp1

[jumper]

If using the DC-1 by itself I'd keep using the xlr out to the mains and the rca's for the subs. Mains would stay full range and then I'd use the subwoofers' built-in crossovers.

[soundmaster]

I'm using a DC-1 directly to my Bryston 4b with great results, if your after the extra features then go for it, but if not I think your money is better off spent on subs!

[garbulky]

This is just my experience with it. But in regards to the XSP-1, you usually know it's there In a good sort of way that is....
The DC-1, I just tried its analog input for use as an analog pre-amp. And surprisingly it's more close to a straight wire with gain type sound. Pretty impressive imo for an "add-on" feature! Sort of the sound you would expect from a pre-amp if you've never tried pre-amps like an XSP-1 before.

What speakers are you using? Since you mentioned that you would do both eventually, I would probably just try the sub route. Unless your speakers have SERIOUS low end grunt that couples to the room. I say that only because I have heard speakers that were rated for 25 hz, and though they did make volume at 25 hz, it just wasn't anything like the powersound subwoofer coupling to the room at 25hz. Dang! Now that was true pressurization and control!

[vcautokid]

Your mileage may vary, but if you need, or going to need the extra inputs, phone stage, and all, the XSP-1 Gen 2 is a honey. The DC-1 is great for a couple of digital sources, and one analog, so you can pick which is best with confidence. You can be very happy either way. You could still for instance introduce the XPS-1 Phono stage with the DC-1 too. So you choose 'em, they all make great music. Enjoy.

[jumper]

Feb 10, 2015 5:07:37 GMT -5 garbulky said:

This is just my experience with it. But in regards to the XSP-1, you usually know it's there In a good sort of way that is....
The DC-1, I just tried its analog input for use as an analog pre-amp. And surprisingly it's more close to a straight wire with gain type sound. Pretty impressive imo for an "add-on" feature! Sort of the sound you would expect from a pre-amp if you've never tried pre-amps like an XSP-1 before.

What speakers are you using? Since you mentioned that you would do both eventually, I would probably just try the sub route. Unless your speakers have SERIOUS low end grunt that couples to the room. I say that only because I have heard speakers that were rated for 25 hz, and though they did make volume at 25 hz, it just wasn't anything like the powersound subwoofer coupling to the room at 25hz. Dang! Now that was true pressurization and control!

I'm using Philharmonic 3's. Outstanding bass for full range speakers but obviously not as much as a pair of subs would provide, especially in a larger than average room.

[garbulky]

Feb 10, 2015 12:09:29 GMT -5 jumper said:

Feb 10, 2015 5:07:37 GMT -5 garbulky said:

This is just my experience with it. But in regards to the XSP-1, you usually know it's there In a good sort of way that is....
The DC-1, I just tried its analog input for use as an analog pre-amp. And surprisingly it's more close to a straight wire with gain type sound. Pretty impressive imo for an "add-on" feature! Sort of the sound you would expect from a pre-amp if you've never tried pre-amps like an XSP-1 before.

What speakers are you using? Since you mentioned that you would do both eventually, I would probably just try the sub route. Unless your speakers have SERIOUS low end grunt that couples to the room. I say that only because I have heard speakers that were rated for 25 hz, and though they did make volume at 25 hz, it just wasn't anything like the powersound subwoofer coupling to the room at 25hz. Dang! Now that was true pressurization and control!

I'm using Philharmonic 3's. Outstanding bass for full range speakers but obviously not as much as a pair of subs would provide, especially in a larger than average room.

Ah well the philharmonics actually do really go down pretty full range. unless you are in a pretty large room, you may want to think about room treatments and XSP-1 first instead. I wish I had your speakers, those actually are near the very top of my dream list. Philharmonics, Linkwitz LX521 and Tekton speakers. What do you think of them?

[Gary Cook]

This is becoming a very commonly asked for comparison. I firmly believe that there isn't a wrong answer between an XDA-2 / DC-1 or XSP-1, they all will do an excellent job. So the answer comes down to minute differences and personal preferences, plus the room acoustics and speakers have an impact. Personally I prefer having an all analogue pre amp in my system, mostly for the sound, including bass management, but also for the source switching ability.


Cheers
Gary

[jumper]

Thanks Gary - do you think that a pre-amp like the XSP-1 lends it's own sound signature vs using something like the DC-1 as an all-in-one pre-amp + DAC solution? FWIW I spoke to Emotiva today and they advised that if used solely for an effort to improve SQ (in direct mode) you should not be able to notice the XSP-1 in the system, hence the benefit of being able to use all its connections and features without negative impact. This conflicts with reports of people hearing a difference.

[Gary Cook]

Feb 10, 2015 18:58:32 GMT -5 jumper said:

Thanks Gary - do you think that a pre-amp like the XSP-1 lends it's own sound signature vs using something like the DC-1 as an all-in-one pre-amp + DAC solution? FWIW I spoke to Emotiva today and they advised that if used solely for an effort to improve SQ (in direct mode) you should not be able to notice the XSP-1 in the system, hence the benefit of being able to use all its connections and features without negative impact. This conflicts with reports of people hearing a difference.

Fundamentally what a good analogue pre amp is supposed to do is to simply take an analogue signal from a source and amplify it to such a voltage as to be suitable for input into a power amplifier. In doing so it should add zero colouration to the sound and/or alter it in anyway. My view is that the XSP-1 doesn't change the sound, but what it does is supply a more stable / equal / balanced output to the power amp/s. To my ears this manifests itself as more mid range clarity, detail, impact and accuracy than is the case without a pre amp in the circuit. It's not night and day, far from it, the highs sound great, the lows also, but the mid range is a bit, a tiny bit, soft.

A such the XSP-1 is not adding anything that shouldn't be there it's just that what I hear is a supressed mid range without it. As always that's my ears, with my speakers in my room.


Cheers
Gary

[jumper]

Great info Gary, thanks. When you pull your XSP-1 out of your system for comparison without it, what do you have driving your amplifier(s)? Are you using the DC-1?

[Gary Cook]

Feb 10, 2015 21:25:57 GMT -5 jumper said:

Great info Gary, thanks. When you pull your XSP-1 out of your system for comparison without it, what do you have driving your amplifier(s)? Are you using the DC-1?

I don't have a DC-1, I thought about it but I chose an ERC-3 instead (another story). I have tried an XDA-2, an Oppo 95, a 103 and a 105 all without my USP-1 in the circuit. To my ears they all sound better with the USP-1 in there. All display similar traits, that ever so slightly suppressed mid range.

I have no doubt that the XSP-1 is superior sounding to the USP-1, same as I have no doubt that the DC-1 is superior to the XDA-2. But as some others have reported, the same minor symptoms apparently exist with the DC-1, despite its overall superior performance.

As I said earlier, I don't think there is a bad choice here, and it very much comes down to personal preference and what else is in the listening environment.

Cheers
Gary

[soundmaster]

I think the DC-1 greatest strength is the fact it has a very good preamp stage in it, and that is the main reason I purchased it, it allows me to have the purist direct sound possible, if I was going to hook it up to a preamp I probably would of looked at other DAC's out there, I think that's what seperates it from other DACS...IMO!I think you will be wasting your money with the XSP-1 if you don't need the extra features!

[jumper]

Thanks Soundmaster - you make a very good point. I think my dilemma is even greater because the DC-1 has one of the better pre-amp sections compared to other DAC's out there that have one. That means the improvement might be less noticeable vs. adding the XSP-1 to those other DAC's. So pretty much concurring with what you just said. Looks like I'll just need to bite the bullet and try the XSP-1 to find out for myself. I really am eyeing a couple subwoofers to help even out the bass in my room (its an awkward shape), this could give more value to keeping the XSP-1 given its bass management. If and when I pull the trigger I'll be sure to report back. I'd still love to hear if anybody has more opinions on the DC-1's preamp vs. the XSP-1 in terms of SQ. Thanks to everybody who's shared their input so far.