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Post by Spike on Feb 10, 2015 19:48:04 GMT -5
I have always wondered about something. Why don't large towers work well in smaller rooms? Is it because of the space that a pair of towers take up in a small room, or do tower speakers just offer too much sound in the small space?
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Post by creimes on Feb 10, 2015 20:16:53 GMT -5
I have always wondered about something. Why don't large towers work well in smaller rooms? Is it because of the space that a pair of towers take up in a small room, or do tower speakers just offer too much sound in the small space? I'm sure they would work just as good as bookshelf speakers, room treatments would benefit any smaller room though regardless of speaker type, especially bass traps  |
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Post by Spike on Feb 10, 2015 20:34:01 GMT -5
Then, let me ask this: Outside of the height difference, what makes a bookshelf speaker a bookshelf speaker and a tower speaker a tower? I went from a big open space for music listening and watching movies to being in a small room. And so, it makes me want to learn about the difference between those two listening environments and the size of speaker to go in each setting. I am really curious.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2015 20:44:13 GMT -5
Mostly the same reason why large towers also don't work well in larger rooms. More and more, the larger towers attempt to reproduce lower bass frequencies. This is a mistake IMO for one main reason. Lower bass, like below 80Hz is highly depended on the location of the tower in the room. Due to the size of the tower it is not frequently practical to move them around to attain maximum lower bass performance. Moving the towers if possible wouldn't be prudent in most cases as that would negatively affect the upper bass, mids and highs. Some folks do prefer the overly strong boomy muddy bass of large towers prominent in many rooms of varying sizes.
So what is the solution? It is fairly simple although not popular with speaker sellers (except for sub sellers) and most folks. Combine very high quality bookshelf (or smaller towers) with high power handling with a high quality sub(s) that takes over at about 80Hz and down (with the mains or L&R set to small, rolling off below 80Hz). When this sub(s) is located fairly near the front of the room, blending is usually quite easy and effective if done correctly. Sub(s) near the listening position or to the rear of the room can be a little more difficult to set up. This can require of course speaker stands and some experimentation with the sub(s) placement. Some folks place the smaller speaker on top of the sub(s) but that prevents any movement of the sub(s) and ability to obtain the best lower bass performance. It is important to find bookshelf speakers that have the same high quality/high power handling tweeters/mids and upper bass drivers that are used in the same brands tower. Many times speaker brands skimp on the drivers in their smaller speakers. Some who do buy a sub(s) skimp and use cheaper entry level models. The lower bass response is usually superior in high quality sub versus towers.
Lower bass is best reproduced in a separate speaker enclosure called a subwoofer.
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Post by Porscheguy on Feb 10, 2015 21:07:08 GMT -5
I have always wondered about something. Why don't large towers work well in smaller rooms? Is it because of the space that a pair of towers take up in a small room, or do tower speakers just offer too much sound in the small space? Who has said that towers don't work in small rooms? They work fine.... |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2015 21:20:56 GMT -5
I have always wondered about something. Why don't large towers work well in smaller rooms? Is it because of the space that a pair of towers take up in a small room, or do tower speakers just offer too much sound in the small space? Who has said that towers don't work in small rooms? They work fine.... Well, that sure lets some of the air out of my post!  |
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Post by Porscheguy on Feb 10, 2015 21:23:56 GMT -5
Who has said that towers don't work in small rooms? They work fine.... Well, that sure lets some of the air out of my post! I have Kilpschorns in my bathroom.... |
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Post by Spike on Feb 10, 2015 21:25:00 GMT -5
Mostly the same reason why large towers also don't work well in larger rooms. More and more, the larger towers attempt to reproduce lower bass frequencies. This is a mistake IMO for one main reason. Lower bass, like below 80Hz is highly depended on the location of the tower in the room. Due to the size of the tower it is not frequently practical to move them around to attain maximum lower bass performance. Moving the towers if possible wouldn't be prudent in most cases as that would negatively affect the upper bass, mids and highs. Some folks do prefer the overly strong boomy muddy bass of large towers prominent in many rooms of varying sizes. So what is the solution? It is fairly simple although not popular with speaker sellers (except for sub sellers) and most folks. Combine very high quality bookshelf (or smaller towers) with high power handling with a high quality sub(s) that takes over at about 80Hz and down (with the mains or L&R set to small, rolling off below 80Hz). When this sub(s) is located fairly near the front of the room, blending is usually quite easy and effective if done correctly. Sub(s) near the listening position or to the rear of the room can be a little more difficult to set up. This can require of course speaker stands and some experimentation with the sub(s) placement. Some folks place the smaller speaker on top of the sub(s) but that prevents any movement of the sub(s) and ability to obtain the best lower bass performance. It is important to find bookshelf speakers that have the same high quality/high power handling tweeters/mids and upper bass drivers that are used in the same brands tower. Many times speaker brands skimp on the drivers in their smaller speakers. Some who do buy a sub(s) skimp and use cheaper entry level models. The lower bass response is usually superior in high quality sub versus towers. Lower bass is best reproduced in a separate speaker enclosure called a subwoofer. Ahhhh! Thanks, See, you are hitting this topic where I live. See, I don't want big boomy base. I agree. A lot of people love that, and that is fine. To each there own but, that really doesn't work for me. Because I experience pain, that big boomy sound sends my pain levels to very high levels. So, now that I am in a small room-- 10'x13' -- what I really want is a nice unified sound, so if I turn the volume down I still hear the same quality as if the volume is up. Now, having said that, it makes me wonder. Do I get that goal met with bookshelf speakers? Or do I go with towers? When I had a big open space, I just added the towers, the big boomy base, and I let 'er rip. Now, my situation is really so much different. |
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Post by Porscheguy on Feb 10, 2015 21:33:56 GMT -5
Mostly the same reason why large towers also don't work well in larger rooms. More and more, the larger towers attempt to reproduce lower bass frequencies. This is a mistake IMO for one main reason. Lower bass, like below 80Hz is highly depended on the location of the tower in the room. Due to the size of the tower it is not frequently practical to move them around to attain maximum lower bass performance. Moving the towers if possible wouldn't be prudent in most cases as that would negatively affect the upper bass, mids and highs. Some folks do prefer the overly strong boomy muddy bass of large towers prominent in many rooms of varying sizes. So what is the solution? It is fairly simple although not popular with speaker sellers (except for sub sellers) and most folks. Combine very high quality bookshelf (or smaller towers) with high power handling with a high quality sub(s) that takes over at about 80Hz and down (with the mains or L&R set to small, rolling off below 80Hz). When this sub(s) is located fairly near the front of the room, blending is usually quite easy and effective if done correctly. Sub(s) near the listening position or to the rear of the room can be a little more difficult to set up. This can require of course speaker stands and some experimentation with the sub(s) placement. Some folks place the smaller speaker on top of the sub(s) but that prevents any movement of the sub(s) and ability to obtain the best lower bass performance. It is important to find bookshelf speakers that have the same high quality/high power handling tweeters/mids and upper bass drivers that are used in the same brands tower. Many times speaker brands skimp on the drivers in their smaller speakers. Some who do buy a sub(s) skimp and use cheaper entry level models. The lower bass response is usually superior in high quality sub versus towers. Lower bass is best reproduced in a separate speaker enclosure called a subwoofer. Ahhhh! Thanks, See, you are hitting this topic where I live. See, I don't want big boomy base. I agree. A lot of people love that, and that is fine. To each there own but, that really doesn't work for me. Because I experience pain, that big boomy sound sends my pain levels to very high levels. So, now that I am in a small room-- 10'x13' -- what I really want is a nice unified sound, so if I turn the volume down I still hear the same quality as if the volume is up. Now, having said that, it makes me wonder. Do I get that goal met with bookshelf speakers? Or do I go with towers? When I had a big open space, I just added the towers, the big boomy base, and I let 'er rip. Now, my situation is really so much different. I wouldn't put 5' tall towers in a small room, but there are smaller towers that would work just fine, the Revel F206 comes to mind. They are ported in the front (rather than the rear) which allows more placement options especially closer to walls... The Martin Logan Motion series is another option.. |
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Post by cwmcobra on Feb 10, 2015 21:37:40 GMT -5
In my opinion, the choice of bookshelf or tower speakers in your room has more to do with aesthetics and impact of speaker location. If you can locate the towers where you like their sound and their look, go for it. If not, go for the bookshelf speakers. But in either case, take Chuckie's advice and add a sub or two. Especially if you need to listen at lower volumes due to your pain, the sub will give you a much more full sound, filling out the bottom end, even at lower volumes, like neither the towers nor bookshelfs can do on their own.
That's my opinion after setting up Klipsch La Scalas, really getting to love them, then adding two subs and loving them even more!
Good luck with the continued pursuit of perfection for YOU!
Chuck
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Post by jlafrenz on Feb 10, 2015 21:40:17 GMT -5
Tower speakers in a small room don't necessarily equate to boomy bass. I have heard plenty of bookshelf speakers in small rooms that have boomy bass. Regardless of the room, setup or placement is important. Small rooms do have more challenges and acoustical issues. I think you need to look at different speakers and find some that you like and see if it is possible to demo them in your own room or at least in a small space. I would also read up on nearfield listening.
I've been looking for an article from Paul Barton (PSB) that talks about some of his towers in smaller spaces. One of the comments he makes is that if you sit to close to the towers he was mentioning, the sound isn't cohesive. This was because of the spacing of the drivers over the size of a tower. The listener needs to sit further away from them for them to be cohesive. I wish I could find the article.
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Post by Spike on Feb 10, 2015 21:44:02 GMT -5
I will take Chuckie's advice. After all, I don't want there to be another "Chuckie" movie made, where I'm one of the casualties. (*GRIN* Man, I hope Chuck gets my sense of humor on that one, Cuz, I was stretching it there more than just a tad.)
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Post by ansat on Feb 10, 2015 21:51:46 GMT -5
I look at things a little differently. I would say that the smaller the room, the greater the need for treatments and EQ. The larger the speaker, the greater the usable frequency range, the greater the number of EQ channels needed or treatments that are needed. From 10hz to 80hz there is 3 octaves. From 2500hz to 20000 hz there is also only 3 octaves. (this relates to @chuckienut response)
Tony
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Post by Spike on Feb 10, 2015 21:52:00 GMT -5
Tower speakers in a small room don't necessarily equate to boomy bass. I have heard plenty of bookshelf speakers in small rooms that have boomy bass. Regardless of the room, setup or placement is important. Small rooms do have more challenges and acoustical issues. I think you need to look at different speakers and find some that you like and see if it is possible to demo them in your own room or at least in a small space. I would also read up on nearfield listening. I've been looking for an article from Paul Barton (PSB) that talks about some of his towers in smaller spaces. One of the comments he makes is that if you sit to close to the towers he was mentioning, the sound isn't cohesive. This was because of the spacing of the drivers over the size of a tower. The listener needs to sit further away from them for them to be cohesive. I wish I could find the article. Ah, so, it is almost like the sound passes you before you can hear it then. Would that be a fair assessment? |
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Post by creimes on Feb 10, 2015 22:25:51 GMT -5
Room Treatments, Room Treatments, Room Treatments you get my drift hahaha, my buddy has some 3 way towers with a 12" sub, XMC-1, XPA-1L's, XPA-5 and so on in a small living room, he has 4 bass traps and 2 acoustic panels and 2 diffusers and it sounds really good and the bass is nice and tight and not boomy at all and it's a tile floor with an area rug and one big leather chair haha, lets say it again...Room Treatmentssssssssss  |
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Post by jlafrenz on Feb 10, 2015 22:30:55 GMT -5
Tower speakers in a small room don't necessarily equate to boomy bass. I have heard plenty of bookshelf speakers in small rooms that have boomy bass. Regardless of the room, setup or placement is important. Small rooms do have more challenges and acoustical issues. I think you need to look at different speakers and find some that you like and see if it is possible to demo them in your own room or at least in a small space. I would also read up on nearfield listening. I've been looking for an article from Paul Barton (PSB) that talks about some of his towers in smaller spaces. One of the comments he makes is that if you sit to close to the towers he was mentioning, the sound isn't cohesive. This was because of the spacing of the drivers over the size of a tower. The listener needs to sit further away from them for them to be cohesive. I wish I could find the article. Ah, so, it is almost like the sound passes you before you can hear it then. Would that be a fair assessment? Think about sound dispersion and how it gets wider at a distance. Depending on placement and the drivers used, the different drivers reproducing the varying frequencies may not come together at shorter distances. If you sit further away this allows the sound more dispersion and to blend and make a uniform or cohesive sound. Bookshelf speakers are smaller and have less drivers so this is less of an issue. I think the point Chuckie is trying to make is that towers are going to put more energy into a room because they have more driver surface area. This doesn't always work in small rooms because of the acoustic properties of small rooms and the tendency to have bass build up, especially in the back of the room. In a small room, the listener is often close to the rear wall. This is a general statement though and the driver and design of the speaker will always be a variable in the equation. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2015 23:07:28 GMT -5
Ah, so, it is almost like the sound passes you before you can hear it then. Would that be a fair assessment? It isn't that the sound passes you buy and you don't hear it. Think about sound dispersion and how it gets wider at a distance. Depending on placement and the drivers used, the different drivers reproducing the varying frequencies may not come together at shorter distances. If you sit further away this allows the sound more dispersion and to blend and make a uniform or cohesive sound. Bookshelf speakers are smaller and have less drivers so this is less of an issue. I think the point Chuckie is trying to make is that towers are going to put more energy into a room because they have more driver surface area. This doesn't always work in small rooms because of the acoustic properties of small rooms and the tendency to have bass build up, especially in the back of the room. In a small room, the listener is often close to the rear wall. This is a general statement though and the driver and design of the speaker will always be a variable in the equation. Sorry, but that was not my point. My point is that I prefer a bookshelf/sub combo to a tower for the better and more accurate lower bass response in many rooms. Room treatments are always important. However, room treatments, EQ, Room Correction, etc. many times do not offer the best solution. Yes there are many bookshelf speaker with boomy bass and towers with little bass, etc. I'm talking about high quality accurate bookshelf speakers. Don't look to bookshelf speakers for good low bass, look to bookshelf/sub combos for that. Emotiva Reference speakers (since I own them) are the best example I can give (there are many other speaker brands and series that are similar). The Emo ERM-1 bookshelf speaker has the same exact top end as the Emo ERT-8.3 large tower. This is what to look for in a bookshelf speaker, top quality drivers. They both have one each 1" silk dome tweeter and two each 5.25" mid/bass drivers. The ERT-8.3 adds the two 8" bass drivers. Very few folks considered the ERM-1 except for a small room or as a surround speaker, sad mistake IMO. The ERM-1 is built like a tank and weighs a heavy 18 lbs for a 13.5" tall bookshelf. I matched the 4 ohm very high output ERM-1 (driven by an XPA-5) with a high quality sub for IMO better playback in a medium to small room than the ERT-8.3. This is the point I'm trying to make. The ERT-8.3 might experience lots of lower bass issues that cannot be solved by correct room placement while the ERM-1/sub combo allows for varied placement of the sub for the best lower bass performance. The bookshelf/sub might not be the best for all but it is unfortunately never even considered by many because they think towers are always best. I'm only suggesting folks don't overlook the bookshelf/sub combo as a very good alternative to the tower speaker. |
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Post by creimes on Feb 10, 2015 23:17:20 GMT -5
I am running my Stealth 6's with a Emotiva Ultra 10 sub and the sub complements the Stealth's better than the Klipsch 12" that I had swapped with a buddy for a few weeks, could be the 10" instead of the 12" or the fact that it is sealed and the Klipsch was ported, in terms of the quality of the bass provided by these two subs the Ultra 10 winds hands down for me in my room, my room isn't smal but at the same time not large either, in a really small room than I would think you wouldn't really need a tower speaker in the first place, and I'm taking a shot in the dark here and someone correct me if I am wrong but a sealed sub would do better in a small room ?
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Post by ansat on Feb 10, 2015 23:25:54 GMT -5
I am running my Stealth 6's with a Emotiva Ultra 10 sub and the sub complements the Stealth's better than the Klipsch 12" that I had swapped with a buddy for a few weeks, could be the 10" instead of the 12" or the fact that it is sealed and the Klipsch was ported, in terms of the quality of the bass provided by these two subs the Ultra 10 winds hands down for me in my room, my room isn't smal but at the same time not large either, in a really small room than I would think you wouldn't really need a tower speaker in the first place, and I'm taking a shot in the dark here and someone correct me if I am wrong but a sealed sub would do better in a small room ? From a strictly technical standpoint, not having to deal with the port frequencies makes it easier to deal with in small rooms, But I would not inherently label one as better. (But I prefer sealed) Tony |
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Post by jlafrenz on Feb 10, 2015 23:34:22 GMT -5
It isn't that the sound passes you buy and you don't hear it. Think about sound dispersion and how it gets wider at a distance. Depending on placement and the drivers used, the different drivers reproducing the varying frequencies may not come together at shorter distances. If you sit further away this allows the sound more dispersion and to blend and make a uniform or cohesive sound. Bookshelf speakers are smaller and have less drivers so this is less of an issue. I think the point Chuckie is trying to make is that towers are going to put more energy into a room because they have more driver surface area. This doesn't always work in small rooms because of the acoustic properties of small rooms and the tendency to have bass build up, especially in the back of the room. In a small room, the listener is often close to the rear wall. This is a general statement though and the driver and design of the speaker will always be a variable in the equation. Sorry, but that was not my point. My point is that I prefer a bookshelf/sub combo to a tower for the better and more accurate lower bass response in many rooms. Room treatments are always important. However, room treatments, EQ, Room Correction, etc. many times do not offer the best solution. Yes there are many bookshelf speaker with boomy bass and towers with little bass, etc. I'm talking about high quality accurate bookshelf speakers. Don't look to bookshelf speakers for good low bass, look to bookshelf/sub combos for that. Emotiva Reference speakers (since I own them) are the best example I can give (there are many other speaker brands and series that are similar). The Emo ERM-1 bookshelf speaker has the same exact top end as the Emo ERT-8.3 large tower. This is what to look for in a bookshelf speaker, top quality drivers. They both have one each 1" silk dome tweeter and two each 5.25" mid/bass drivers. The ERT-8.3 adds the two 8" bass drivers. Very few folks considered the ERM-1 except for a small room or as a surround speaker, sad mistake IMO. The ERM-1 is built like a tank and weighs a heavy 18 lbs for a 13.5" tall bookshelf. I matched the 4 ohm very high output ERM-1 (driven by an XPA-5) with a high quality sub for IMO better playback in a medium to small room than the ERT-8.3. This is the point I'm trying to make. The ERT-8.3 might experience lots of lower bass issues that cannot be solved by correct room placement while the ERM-1/sub combo allows for varied placement of the sub for the best lower bass performance. The bookshelf/sub might not be the best for all but it is unfortunately never even considered by many because they think towers are always best. I'm only suggesting folks don't overlook the bookshelf/sub combo as a very good alternative to the tower speaker. I just reread your original post and I see that my point is definitely not the point you were trying to make. The comment about towers being boomy did spark the thought of towers putting more energy into the room. Hopefully I haven't confused people with those 2 different concepts. You do bring up another point that I was thinking about in this situation. By having bookshelf/monitors separate from the subwoofer (low bass) you can place each in a more ideal location for the room they are in. The trick here becomes getting them to blend with crossovers, gains, etc... |
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