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XMR-1
Aug 24, 2015 12:41:04 GMT -5
cwt likes this
Post by bradford on Aug 24, 2015 12:41:04 GMT -5
SURROUND SOUND PROCESSING EFFECTSSo I'm going to shift conversation back to XMR-1 features. It just hit me for the first time this weekend that I think the XMC-1 is lacking a big feature I like to have available in my system. Until this weekend it never dawned on me, but I believe the XMC-1 lacks surround sound effects processing settings (Stadium, Music Hall, etc). Please correct me if I’m wrong.I know I know, these features are typically reserved for non-audiophiles, and most people probably never use them. I’m sure that’s what 99% of the rest of you here will be replying to tell me; why would you want something so stupid as artificial processing? BUT, there is one time when I really do like to use them, and that is when I listen to live recordings. It’s not something I use every day or every week or every month, but it is something I like to use occasionally, and if I had to live without it I wouldn’t be as happy with my equipment. For example, this weekend I finally got a chance to sit down and listen to the String Cheese Incident CD’s I bought of the Red Rocks show I attended last month. I put them in and started listening. It was really good, but it wasn’t great, because it didn’t sound like I was THERE. Then I remembered the surround sound effects settings in my Denon receiver and started switching between them. When I got to Super Stadium a big smile came across my face and it changed the entire listening experience. I was THERE again. I told my wife, THIS is what it sounded like being at the show. I was stoked! Another good example is Led Zeppelin’s Celebration CD. Without the surround sound processing (I think it’s Super Stadium again), the show just sounds flat. With the processing turned on, it’s much more as if you are there in the O2 arena with the rest of the audience. Without the Stadium processing turned on, I don’t even like listening to that CD much. One thing I should probably note, is that for live bootlegs etc, I prefer a good audience recording over a straight up soundboard. Audience matrixed soundboards can be very nice if done well, but nothing beats a good audience recording for the “feel” of actually being at the show. So I doubt the XMC-1 will ever have this sort of feature, but if the XMR-1 is to truly be the piece de resistance Emotiva is claiming, I think it should have this. Frankly, if it doesn’t come with this feature, I’m afraid it just might not be for me either. I might have to look elsewhere. So the question becomes, how hard is it to add this sort of function to the processor Emotiva is putting in the XMR-1? Is it costly, or is it almost a freebie once it’s implemented? If they support Auro 3D it comes with Auromatic, It has received very good reviews for upmixing 2 channel and 5.1 music.
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XMR-1
Aug 24, 2015 12:43:51 GMT -5
Post by cwt on Aug 24, 2015 12:43:51 GMT -5
So I'm going to shift conversation back to XMR-1 features. It just hit me for the first time this weekend that I think the XMC-1 is lacking a big feature I like to have available in my system. Until this weekend it never dawned on me, but I believe the XMC-1 lacks surround sound effects processing settings (Stadium, Music Hall, etc). Please correct me if I’m wrong.Not a great fan of artificial yamaha type dsp modes bonzo but agree there should be a few more that work with whats on the disc/file . Meridian for example understand there is surround information matrixed in even 2ch audio so they give a trifield mode [even in a 800 series to extract the ambience and plonk it in the surrounds . Maybe some of these modes wouldnt be too exxy to license ; theres been a lot of hafler type circuitry in various types over the years . Heres an example of what is available on a $20000+ meridian 800 series
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XMR-1
Aug 24, 2015 13:11:55 GMT -5
Post by Bonzo on Aug 24, 2015 13:11:55 GMT -5
Not a great fan of artificial yamaha type dsp modes I'm normally not either, but for certain live recordings, I like it. It's very noticeable especially at shows that I've actually attended. When I listen to the recording I want to reproduce the "feel" of when I was actually there. That's why I think I typically like audience recordings over soundboards. And bands and the producers and engineers never seem to understand that a live recording should have a live "as it sounds there" sound to it. They want it to sound more like a perfect studio recording, which doesn't fit my tastes at all. Of the limited number of CD's I've sold back in my time, most of them have been live recordings due to this issue. I know Keith is a big Grateful Dead fan so hopefully can understand my desire here. I just saw a show on TV called the Big Interview where Dan Rather interviewed Bob Weir. Bob has one of the coolest recording studios in the world. With a touch of a button the room can be made to audibly mimic any location in the world. If his crew can go there and "record" the ambiance they can program Bob's recording studio to sound just like it. Wanna sound like you are playing in Madison Square Garden or the Hollywood Bowl? No problem. Awesome tech. Regarding cost, I just don't see it costing a gazillion dollars to do. The big guys put the feature into their $400 receivers, so it can't be totally outrageous. And in the $5000 XMR-1, I think it should be there. I know I'll miss it if it isn't.
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Erwin.BE
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It's the room, stupid!
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XMR-1
Aug 24, 2015 14:51:45 GMT -5
Post by Erwin.BE on Aug 24, 2015 14:51:45 GMT -5
I will bet you my Upgrade Certificate that the XMR-1 will not feature such DSP "venue" modes.
Something much more relevant is what CEO Johansson from Dirac said in the interview with Scott Wilkinson a few days ago. He talked about Dirac Unison, BTW a "feature" of the future XMR-1. Using multiple speakers, Unison can counter problems caused by one speaker with another speaker(s)! I might want that third sub after all...
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Post by skiman1 on Aug 24, 2015 14:57:09 GMT -5
Bonzo, I still have my Yamaha DSP-1. It's stored in the original box. If you live near Golden Colorado, you can come by and have it.
Edit: I see you live in Ohio. Thought maybe you lived in Colorado since you've been to Red Rocks. Anyway, you can have my Yamaha DSP-1 for the cost of mailing it to you.
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XMR-1
Aug 24, 2015 15:20:19 GMT -5
Post by lesliew on Aug 24, 2015 15:20:19 GMT -5
Zero chance of that happening.
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stiehl11
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Posts: 7,261
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XMR-1
Aug 24, 2015 15:37:24 GMT -5
Post by stiehl11 on Aug 24, 2015 15:37:24 GMT -5
Zero chance of that happening. And you know this how? Or is it just your opinion?
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XMR-1
Aug 24, 2015 17:08:11 GMT -5
Post by lesliew on Aug 24, 2015 17:08:11 GMT -5
Zero chance of that happening. And you know this how? Or is it just your opinion? Apologies IMHO
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LCSeminole
Global Moderator
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,490
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XMR-1
Aug 24, 2015 17:16:56 GMT -5
Post by LCSeminole on Aug 24, 2015 17:16:56 GMT -5
Something much more relevant is what CEO Johansson from Dirac said in the interview with Scott Wilkinson a few days ago. He talked about Dirac Unison, BTW a "feature" of the future XMR-1. Using multiple speakers, Unison can counter problems caused by one speaker with another speaker(s)! I might want that third sub after all... I was initially not interested in a 16 channel processor with Dolby Atmos/DTS:X and I'm still not interested in these, but like you Erwin, after listening to Mathias Johansson, Dirac Unison would be enough for me to take a serious second look. To add, my interest would be even more piqued if there would be some useful control over certain objects such as voice/dialogue in the two object based audio codecs from DTS & Dolby.
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XMR-1
Aug 24, 2015 17:32:02 GMT -5
Post by Bonzo on Aug 24, 2015 17:32:02 GMT -5
I will bet you my Upgrade Certificate that the XMR-1 will not feature such DSP "venue" modes. I'm not taking that bet. More relevant for super tweaker geeks who love to play with this kind of stuff, absolutely, yes. For people who are more about just listening to the music and more interested in simplicity, no. I'd rather have venue modes that I can easily use when I want rather than be able to tweak a fancy EQ system to the 5th decimal point. (Believe it or not but I'd bet that there are many folks with the XMC-1 that leave dirac totally turned off much, if not, all of the time). As Big Dan has said, you can't make everyone happy, and I totally understand that. But I also have to think Dirac Unison is a much more costly proposition than just adding 5 DSP modes (like Stadium, Concert Hall, Cathedral, Jazz Club, Outdoor Amphitheater). So I'm thinking money lowere on the list than the real reason for not including it. I would like it if Keith chimed in though to get their actual opinion instead of speculating. I may PM him.
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XMR-1
Aug 24, 2015 17:38:11 GMT -5
Post by Bonzo on Aug 24, 2015 17:38:11 GMT -5
Bonzo, I still have my Yamaha DSP-1. It's stored in the original box. If you live near Golden Colorado, you can come by and have it.
Edit: I see you live in Ohio. Thought maybe you lived in Colorado since you've been to Red Rocks. Anyway, you can have my Yamaha DSP-1 for the cost of mailing it to you. This is very generous offer and I thank you very much. At this time I can't afford an XMR-1 anyway so to get your unit now it would just sit on s shelf collecting dust. I'm sure someone else could make better use of it right now than can I. But if not, yeah, I could buy it from you. PM me for what you want. I was just in Golden to visit my oldest friend (who was diagnosed with a rare T-Cell Lymph Node cancer in January). He is a professor at the School Of Mines. The trip was a somber one, but we made the best of it and had an absolute blast just the same. Thanks --- Bonzo
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XMR-1
Aug 24, 2015 17:45:17 GMT -5
Post by skiman1 on Aug 24, 2015 17:45:17 GMT -5
My neighbor is a professor at the School Of Mines. I bet he knows your friend.
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XMR-1
Aug 24, 2015 18:11:03 GMT -5
Post by Bonzo on Aug 24, 2015 18:11:03 GMT -5
My neighbor is a professor at the School Of Mines. I bet he knows your friend. Very possible. Dr. Paul Ogg is his name. He's been on leave this year with the chemo, and is currently going through drastic stem cell therapy. If all goes well he's planning to be back to teaching next January. My thoughts are with him and his family daily.
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XMR-1
Aug 24, 2015 23:46:55 GMT -5
Post by socketman on Aug 24, 2015 23:46:55 GMT -5
Dan said he was considering Unison for the XMC -1 here I really hope they can implement it.
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XMR-1
Aug 26, 2015 5:28:46 GMT -5
Post by cwt on Aug 26, 2015 5:28:46 GMT -5
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Post by Bonzo on Aug 26, 2015 10:06:10 GMT -5
....shame to see this tech wither.... Yes, especially when all I'm asking for is less tech than your example. I did contact KeithL via PM and he graciously replied saying that while “...most DSP sets, including the one we use, have some sort of functionality like that built in, .....it would still require some effort to implement it, and the demand in the audiophile market simply isn't there.” So it’s not really Emotiva’s fault for not putting in their processors, it’s the fault of all the audiophile snobs out there who hate the “fun” DSP modes, but MUST have the crazy tweak every nuance of everything else EQ DSP abilities that rarely get used either. A big WHATEVER. I hate you all! Note to all: Of course I was saying that last sentence with a lot of sarcasm and wrote it in an over the top manner to make it jokingly funny. Hopefully you got that. But in reality, there is truth inside it. Tweakers get to have the expensive hard to implement awesome hi-end processing to make your room sound how YOU THINK it sounds best, but we can’t have some cheap easy to implement processing that, while certainly far from perfect, at least helps live show recordings sound more ambient to their location and come to life in our rooms. Makes zero sense to me.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 26, 2015 11:53:14 GMT -5
To me, if we're using the XMC-1 as a base, there are much more important and basic features to get right. After living with the XMC-1 for a couple of months I'm very impressed with the sound quality, construction, and appearance.
To me the Achilles' heel is the remote command set. I'm not talking about the physical remote and don't want to open that debate here, but rather the IR & IP commands that can be accepted, interpreted, and acted upon. From all I've experienced and gathered from others, neither IR nor IP can do anything that's not available on the physical remote. That means you can't directly select any input that you haven't assigned to one of the seven virtual inputs. If you have more than seven then good luck, you can try to get a Harmony or other universal to do the 'scroll' method, but it's problematic.
I want a full featured IR/IP command set that can be queried for current state and that can access all of the processor's features directly. I can only hope this can be added to the XMC-1, but if the XMR-1 doesn't have it, I'm out (and I'm a buyer at the current price).
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,929
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Post by KeithL on Aug 26, 2015 12:03:05 GMT -5
The XMC-1 does include a whole slew of "direct access" commands.. (Many of these were always there, but they have been expanded.) To me, if we're using the XMC-1 as a base, there are much more important and basic features to get right. After living with the XMC-1 for a couple of months I'm very impressed with the sound quality, construction, and appearance. To me the Achilles' heel is the remote command set. I'm not talking about the physical remote and don't want to open that debate here, but rather the IR & IP commands that can be accepted, interpreted, and acted upon. From all I've experienced and gathered from others, neither IR nor IP can do anything that's not available on the physical remote. That means you can't directly select any input that you haven't assigned to one of the seven virtual inputs. If you have more than seven then good luck, you can try to get a Harmony or other universal to do the 'scroll' method, but it's problematic. I want a full featured IR/IP command set that can be queried for current state and that can access all of the processor's features directly. I can only hope this can be added to the XMC-1, but if the XMR-1 doesn't have it, I'm out (and I'm a buyer at the current price).
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XMR-1
Aug 26, 2015 12:12:03 GMT -5
Post by cwt on Aug 26, 2015 12:12:03 GMT -5
....shame to see this tech wither.... Yes, especially when all I'm asking for is less tech than your example. I did contact KeithL via PM and he graciously replied saying that while “...most DSP sets, including the one we use, have some sort of functionality like that built in, .....it would still require some effort to implement it, and the demand in the audiophile market simply isn't there.” So it’s not really Emotiva’s fault for not putting in their processors, it’s the fault of all the audiophile snobs out there who hate the “fun” DSP modes, but MUST have the crazy tweak every nuance of everything else EQ DSP abilities that rarely get used either. A big WHATEVER. I hate you all! I think its worth recalling that yamaha uses proprietary LSI chips developed by themselves for the myriad of dsp modes they offer bonzo and as Keith implies its down to the programming available on the particular chipset ; a cary 11a cirrus logic 49700 only had ces7.1 ; should mention I dont like the chances of thx ultra music/movie modes even though the momentum chipsets list those as optional Anyway you should listen to more multichannel ; whats this 2ch stuff anyway says the former avx 100u owner [ this thing could manipulate the video switching quality even to the record outs with dnr etc ]
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Post by igorzep on Aug 26, 2015 12:38:16 GMT -5
The XMC-1 does include a whole slew of "direct access" commands.. (Many of these were always there, but they have been expanded.) POWER TOGGLE, BASS/TREBLE UP/DOWN! Finally! Have to return to programming my remote... Thanks for the docs, hopefully I will be able to extract useful information for my OneForAll remote.
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