RCUBE
Minor Hero
Posts: 59
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Post by RCUBE on Feb 26, 2015 21:19:55 GMT -5
Hi, I currently have the Axiom M22ti speakers powered by a Yamaha A-S2000 stereo integrated amplifier.
The music using the current setup sounds very good. There are some improvement areas I realise and wondering if a more powerful amp will really address them.
Also, I use the yamaha A-S2000 to power my L/R channels for movies and an older yamaha HT receiver for the C and surrounds.
I was thinking of getting 3 of the Emotiva XPA-1L to drive L/R/C and use the yamaha A-S2000 to power the surrounds.
Will the XPA 1L sound noticeably better than the Yamaha A-S2000???
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RCUBE
Minor Hero
Posts: 59
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Post by RCUBE on Feb 28, 2015 3:19:00 GMT -5
Bump. Anyone please?
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 28, 2015 7:02:01 GMT -5
Although I've not actually listened to the Yamaha A-S2000, the reviews I read of it are uniformly positive. I have heard a recent Yamaha receiver, the Avemtage RX-1040. It was a clean and powerful-sounding product. The A-S2000 integrated, being one of Yamaha's flagship products, theoretically should be better.
Now having said that, I can also say that the Yamaha did not, and wasn't designed to, compete with class-A amplifiers (which the XPA-1L is). I do own the XPA-1L pair and find it to be some of the best sound I've heard.
Now to your specific question, "Will the XPA-1L sound noticeably better than the Yamaha A-S2000?" What you're actually asking is "will the XPA-1L sound noticeably better than the Yamaha A-S2000 to me?"
Obviously, nobody but you can answer that question, because your setup plays such a large part. Are your speakers high-enough resolution to hear the differences? Is your room smooth enough in frequency response to hear the differences? Are your ears good enough to hear the differences?
I can assure you that there WILL be differences between the mono blocks and the integrated amplifier. But will those differences be audible to you and worth the difference in cost? Only you can say...
What I'd recommend is for you to buy two XPA-1Ls and try them out for critical stereo-only listening. If you judge them a significant upgrade, keep them; if not, return them. This isn't a "free" strategy, since you'll be paying for return shipping if you don't like them, but it will answer the question definitively in your own home and with your own ears.
I'd predict that once you hear the XPA-1Ls, you won't want to go back to the integrated. Either way, please write up your impressions here on the Lounge for others to share.
Thanks! Boomzilla
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Post by vcautokid on Feb 28, 2015 7:46:10 GMT -5
What is theoretically factual is that the Mono blocks have allot going for them. 2 isolated power supplies vs. the integrated's single one. Superior channel isolation. Better control over the woofers i.e. damping, and much more. Now your ears as Boomzilla pointed out very well are the final judge. I agree, I think you will keep them. They are incredibly good amplifiers, especially ideal in your application. I think also one of Dan, and Lonnie's best work in their Mono Block Amplifiers you can really buy. Small money, big performance. Please let us know your thoughts on them, and enjoy.
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Post by casey01 on Feb 28, 2015 11:08:20 GMT -5
Hi, I currently have the Axiom M22ti speakers powered by a Yamaha A-S2000 stereo integrated amplifier. The music using the current setup sounds very good. There are some improvement areas I realise and wondering if a more powerful amp will really address them. Also, I use the yamaha A-S2000 to power my L/R channels for movies and an older yamaha HT receiver for the C and surrounds. I was thinking of getting 3 of the Emotiva XPA-1L to drive L/R/C and use the yamaha A-S2000 to power the surrounds. Will the XPA 1L sound noticeably better than the Yamaha A-S2000??? I would agree with the comments so far in that only you can decide if it is worth the cost. From my experience, over the years, Yamaha has always built quality amplifiers and the A-S2000 is no exception. As you know, the A-S2000 is 150 watts/ch. in to 8 ohms and XP1L mono is 250 watts ch./8 ohms which would give you approximately 3-4 db of headroom. With mono blocks like these because they are separate units and draw more current to operate to their full potential, do you have the electrical outlets(let alone the space) to accomodate them? Theoretically the mono design should be a little superior, however, frankly I have tried a couple different mono block models(not Emotiva) in the past and unless one plays their music and movies quite loud and of course, has the speakers that can handle it(without a sub, the M22Tis might be strained with the monos at high volume), if there was any meaningful audible difference between them and a good quality multi-channel amp in 150-200 watts/ch. range that I now currently have, for me, personally, I couldn't hear it.
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Post by garbulky on Feb 28, 2015 11:31:10 GMT -5
HMm....so what it appears is that you are using the pre-amp outs of the older yamaha reciever into your yamaha? And want to upgrade to XPA-1 L's. I've heard the XPA-1 L's and in the setup I've heard, it produced some of the best sound I've heard similar to an XPA-5 in the same setup. The only competition was when i heard the XPR-2 and also a nakamichi stasis class A amplifier in that setup. But here's the thing, to produce exceptional sound, everything has to come together just right otherwise other things hold it back. (I have the axiom m80's and so does Boomzilla btw). So my suggestion is....the yamaha honestly looks darn good. So I wouldn't quite go the route you want to go right now but maybe later. Your main issue seems to be that your setup is a mish mash of stuff. So....an XPA-1 L isn't what I would go for. I would jump into separates right off. First thing you need to do is get rid of the reciever (imo). Start with the source. Emotiva produces two nice designs: the umc-200 and the XMC-1, both which are very good. You can get say a (used) UPA-500 for the rest of the channels. You need to consolidate it imo. Also.... you may want to get better speakers (axioms). You can get axiom m80 v2's and v3's selling for like $700 easy used. Going for the towers really helps make real differences. Not saying that your m22's are slouches. Just that instead of spending $1500 on amps...spend it on speakers Another thing you can do ... is go all active. Emotiva's stealth line up is really fine and competes with my axiom m80's. In fact their airmotiv 4 bought about 85% of what the axioms had with the main weakness being the bass and some mid-range stregnth which is understandable as the 4 had one 4 inch driver! Also if you haven't done this already - first of all you need to get acoustic panels. Even one behind your couch will help! www.atsacoustics.com/item--ATS-Acoustic-Panel-24-x-48-x-2--1001.htmlBTW, the XPA-100 and the XPA-1 L are two very different amplifiers.
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 28, 2015 13:11:37 GMT -5
Electronics: garbulky brings up an excellent point - Your system is no better than the weakest link in the chain. I'd have to also agree with him that your Yamaha (used as a preamp) is very likely the weakest electronic link, currently. Speakers: If you go with a subwoofer, then your Axiom M22s are probably fine, but without a sub, you'll REALLY hear a difference between the M22 and the M80 in the Axiom line. Unless I'm mistaken, Axiom even offers a trade in program! Acoustics: Yes, those absorbers DO make a big difference. Do you need them? Find out easily. Sit down in your listening chair and clap your hands. Hear any echo? You need an absorber! Also try downloading a frequency sweep for the bass frequencies from YouTube or somewhere else. Play the bass frequencies. Does any frequency "jump out" as being louder? If so, your room has a standing wave problem at that frequency. Bass traps can treat it passively, or the room can be analyzed and treated with "room correction software" from your processor. Boom
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Post by frenchyfranky on Feb 28, 2015 14:19:01 GMT -5
+1, habitually the biggest improvement you could do in a system without changing the speakers is about the preamp and the sources.
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Post by Gary Cook on Feb 28, 2015 15:16:50 GMT -5
I agree with the other guys, you probably need to look to your processor / pre amp first.
But if you do decide to go for a power amp upgrade then you could be in for some interesting times. Locally we have a hifi retailer (yep, there are still a couple around) who's a big Yamaha dealer so I've had the chance to listen to an A-S2000 a few times. They are a very easy to listen to amp at soft to moderate volumes, very smooth, relaxed, comfortable in a sound sense. Almost anything sounds good, masking deficiencies, like a paint undercoat filling the ripples, smoothed over. But to my ears, like all Yamaha amps, they get a bit screamy when played at higher volumes in the upper frequencies.
This is very very different to any Emotiva amp that I have heard. The are very precise, accurate, revealing and intolerant of a bad quality source. They are consistent like that all the way though the volume range at all frequencies.
It's not tube versus solid state different, but it could be a bit of a shock to your ears. You are going to notice stuff that maybe you have not noticed before, you may well have heard it but you possible won't have noticed it. So if you do decide to change power amplifiers, be prepared to spend a few days listening and getting used to the differences in sound. Because its pretty much guaranteed to be quite a bit different to what you are hearing currently.
Cheers Gary
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RCUBE
Minor Hero
Posts: 59
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Post by RCUBE on Feb 28, 2015 18:07:38 GMT -5
Wow!! Thanks so much folks for the thoughts. Apologies. I think I should have shared complete details as some of you thought I use the older yamaha as a preamp (which is not the case) The below should clearly explain the current setup and the experience that is lacking currently. Is a long post so let's stick to STEREO only. Here is my complete setup. I have 2 ways to play music (CD or WAV files) Current approach 1- play music from a CD. Source - OPPO BDP-103 (only as a transport) The Oppo 103 (no digital processing used and volume at 100) feeds via HDMI to a UMC-200 which does the bass management (80hz crossover) and feeds the MAIN IN of the Yamaha A-S2000 and two Jamo Sub-660 subwoofers. FYI only - The older yamaha is also fed by the UMC-200 for (Mirage) centre and surrounds for SACD or movies only. To be upfront, I do not hear too much of timber mismatch even though I have used different brands. Interconnects between components are Emotiva X series (XDRCA as RCA and X series HDMI) I can vouch that interconnects do impact the sound quiet visibly!! Approach for WAV file playing -2 The Oppo feeds the UMC-200 via HDMI AND via Toslink to a Teac monaraul external DAC. The external DAC feeds the Yamaha A-S2000 via XLR and the UMC-200 only feeds the 2 subwoofers and helps independently control volume for the subwoofers. My dilemma- Given the above 2 approaches, I am not sure if using 2 of the XPA-1L instead of the Yamaha A-S2000 will be a significant difference or will that money be better spent elsewhere? What I WANT - The Yamaha A-S2000 sounds nice and precise but I guess what I am longing for are TWO THINGS. soundstage depth and that presence in the music, especially vocals (((( Some limitations- I cannot have floorstanding speakers due to space (older Mirage OM-12 in storage due to space constraints). Hence the M22 bookshelves. I rarely play loud (loud is volume at 50% of the Yamaha A-S2000) even that gets the cops knocking (twice already)
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Post by garbulky on Feb 28, 2015 18:34:19 GMT -5
oh hehe. Well that makes it a lot clearer! So you are good for your source. I think the XPA-1 L will be nice....however, I don't know if it will be an audible improvement over what you've got. it's possible but no way to know. You've got a pretty nice setup. I know that axiom speakers are resolving enough to reveal the sources electronics, but it's a toss up.
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RCUBE
Minor Hero
Posts: 59
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Post by RCUBE on Feb 28, 2015 19:13:13 GMT -5
Thanks for the kind words garbulky.
I just want to be sure it is not s Monoblock itch before I pull the trigger on new amps. My rack is getting full and wife is starting to miss the point of more amps (why do you need ANOTHER amp now honey ?)
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Post by yeeeha17 on Feb 28, 2015 19:44:13 GMT -5
If You rarely play it loud than stick to what you have. Just spend the money elsewhere like room treatments, subs, or move your speakers around to get better imaging. You will be surprise how much moving a speakers a few inches makes the sound better.
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,230
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Post by novisnick on Feb 28, 2015 19:56:12 GMT -5
If You rarely play it loud than stick to what you have. Just spend the money elsewhere like room treatments, subs, or move your speakers around to get better imaging. You will be surprise how much moving a speakers a few inches makes the sound better. Yep! Agree with ya my friend.
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Post by Gary Cook on Feb 28, 2015 20:10:04 GMT -5
Before I start, please keep in mind that Yamaha amplifiers are not just my cup of tea, they sound to me to be trying too hard to sound "nice". In doing so they lose some accuracy, they are a bit laid back, relaxed, some people might define that as a lack of "presence" or "transparency". This is especially noticeable at higher volumes in the upper frequencies as I mentioned in the previous post. What I WANT - The Yamaha A-S2000 sounds nice and precise but I guess what I am longing for are TWO THINGS. soundstage depth and that presence in the music, especially vocals Unlike the others I have absolutely no doubt that you would notice a significant improvement in clarity with a change to a pair of XPA-1L's. Especially so if you run them at volumes where they are comfortable in Class A, right hand piano, cymbals, violins and the female voice will blow you away with their clarity and detail. The only provision is if your room and speakers can produce it. If you are in a location suitable for a 30 day trial, then I'd strongly suggest doing it, it's really the only way you are going to know for sure. At the risk of repeating myself, they will sound a lot different to the Yamaha so give your ears time to become accustomed. Cheers Gary
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RCUBE
Minor Hero
Posts: 59
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Post by RCUBE on Feb 28, 2015 20:12:01 GMT -5
Yes. I rarely play loud (at 50% volume) not just the cops at door thing but the jamo subs start rattling the French windows above 50% volume. But, is loudness the ONLY benefit of a higher powered amplifier?? From reading around, I gather that there are 2 schools of thought. One says each amplifier brand has its own sonic signature and brings out something's better than others. Regarding moving the speakers around, I have tried that and the best (current) placement is 8 feet apart with no toe-in. I don't use isolation pads yet though and that suggests I could look at the acoustic treatment. Live in a rented apartment so have to be careful ??
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RCUBE
Minor Hero
Posts: 59
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Post by RCUBE on Feb 28, 2015 21:24:38 GMT -5
garyI actually missed to consider that the XPA-1L is a class A under 35W!! Good you mention it. Halfway decided here and leaning to pull the trigger on 2 (not 3) XPA-1L and A/B with the Yamaha A-S2000. Guess that's the only way I can find out. Yes I live in HongKong and the 30 day trial does cover my location. The next couple of questions that beg to be asked would be (love planning BIG updates ) 1. Should I consider the Stealth DAC (XLR connections and inherent compatibility with Emotiva amps) 2. If I get the Stealth (which seems the correct choice), What do I do with my UMC-200 ?? 3. If I continue to use the UMC-200, will it become the weak link given it is the ONLY component that's not balanced in the whole setup?? It is just 40 days old Appreciate thoughts and suggestions please.....
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Post by Gary Cook on Feb 28, 2015 22:48:19 GMT -5
Yes. I rarely play loud (at 50% volume) not just the cops at door thing but the jamo subs start rattling the French windows above 50% volume. But, is loudness the ONLY benefit of a higher powered amplifier? Yes and no. Music doesn't play along at the same average volume, it's dynamic, it has almost instantaneous notes many db above the average. So one of the advantages of a larger power amplifier is its ability to handle that, what some people call speed, or response. It's not just watts, it's also the ability of the power supply to satisfy that demand instantaneously. Obviously this helps with an amplifiers accuracy, so it can follows the dynamics of the music. So one of the things I look for is the amount of capacitance in the power supply, that's where the instantaneous power comes from. Not the transformer, it's job is to charge up the capacitors fast enough so that they are ready for their next demand. Keeping it simple, a 100 watt amp that has a limited amount of power supply capacitance will sound "slow" when compared to another 100 watt amp that has a lot of capacitance, which will sound "faster". I don't know what capacitance the A-S2000 has, but the XPA-1L's have 90,000 uF each, which is quite a lot for a 250 watt mono block. They are what I consider a "fast" amp and as such they supply the dynamics of music easily. The next thing I look for is damping factor, that's a measure of a power amplifiers ability to control the speaker drivers. Watts isn't really a measure of that, again keeping it simple, a 100 watt amp that has a say a damping factor of 190 (like an A-S2000) will not have as good a control over the speakers when compared to another 100 watt amp that has a damping factor >500 (like an XPA-1L). Some speakers are hard to control and sound quite terrible when powered by an amp with a relatively low damping factor, not that 190 is particularly low. But with a damping factor more than 500, there's no doubt that XPA-1L's can control even the most difficult of speakers. So, watts is simply one measure, far from the only measure. Some people say that "all amplifiers sound the same" but the provision is always "when used within their design parameters". What I have found as I have moved through the amplifier forest is that there are some manufacturers that almost certainly have a "house sound". A sound that their engineers aim for. What I have heard , after 6 x Emotiva amplifiers is that their "house sound" is pretty transparent, accurate, not coloured. What goes in is what comes out, just amplified. Not all amplifier manufacturers subscribe to that philosophy, some aim for a more "pleasing sound". Or perhaps more accurately a sound that they think that their customers are looking for. There's nothing at all wrong with knowing your market and sticking to it, There's no right or wrong, it's just different engineering philosophies. Cheers Gary
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RCUBE
Minor Hero
Posts: 59
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Post by RCUBE on Feb 28, 2015 23:35:20 GMT -5
garyVery nicely explained on the speed of amplifiers Gary. Would the terms folks use (laid back, attack) also be positively impacted by the higher capacitance then? I just read a bit on damping factor. It is being said that damping factor affects frequencies below 150hz primarily. If that is a correct understanding, then the impact of my system should be limited to a smaller area since frequencies below 80hz are being handled by the subwoofers alone. Am I right here? And finally, if you could share thoughts on the question - if I go with the XPA-1L, will it need a DAC change since my current DAC Teac UDH-01 puts out only 2vrms (0 DB gain)Max via XLR outputs. The XPA-1L maybe rated to work with much more on the XLR inputs (assuming the stealth DAC is the ideal match with 6DB gain on XLR) The choice of the XPA-1L over XPA-100 is in part for the balanced topology (Class A being another factor surely) What will I loose out on by feeding 2vrms at 0 DB gain via balanced XLR to the XPA1-L??
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RCUBE
Minor Hero
Posts: 59
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Post by RCUBE on Mar 12, 2015 0:43:54 GMT -5
Thank you all I did more reading after this discussion and finally pulled the trigger XSP-1 + 2xXPA-1L
Can anyone now suggest a good balanced DAC?
I have the Teac -UDH 01 dac already but that's burr brown chipset. Want to try a ESS Saber based DAC to compare.
Leaning towards a Yulong saber D8. Any opinions or alternative recommendations please???
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