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Post by neo on Apr 14, 2015 20:30:24 GMT -5
The analog inputs are active......go through an amplifier. Thanks for the quick response ! That's really a nice option. I might be interested in lp later. I heard many audiophiles end up with that. I have a long way to go. But it would be a nice option for future upgrade. |
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Post by garbulky on Apr 14, 2015 21:31:47 GMT -5
The DC-1 actually using the analog input works as a good pre-amp with volume control. No it's not an XSP-1, but damn is it transparent. Also the way it works is that it uses a different signal path - an analog only sort of circuit. For instance when they do this the headphone amps power on the DC-1 goes up because it frees up the power taken by the dac section (I assume). I really enjoyed using the analog pass through. It's definitely not an afterthought but a nice pre-amp. Now if you want it to be a passthrough you set the volume as 0.00 and that is the passthrough setting for volume. You can describe the DC-1 as having something similar to a straight wire with gain for its analog input in sound signature. The XSP-1 could be described as straight music with gain  Different flavors. Okay so you are looking for used cheap equipment. Good news! Get yourself a used UPA-2. This is very close to an XPA-200. You can get them for ridiculously cheap. Like $250-350. It's sort of insane how little they sell for. This is what I would do. A pair of UPA-1 monoblocks sells for around $500. I mean these are great prices for really good gear. Somebody was selling these for $350 for a pair (woah!) but that happens almost never. The mini-x will drive your speakers. But let's be honest, once you hear it and how good it sounds you're really going to want to go a bit higher. From the day I got my UPA-2 I was drooling about an XPA-1. That's how good the audio quality was. I just kept thinking how much better could it be?  |
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Post by neo on Apr 14, 2015 23:42:33 GMT -5
Like knucklehead says, if you only run digital sources this XDA-2 works great as a preamp. I use them as preamps in all five of my systems! FIVE systems? You're a sick man!  Don't call rich people sick  |
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Post by neo on Apr 14, 2015 23:58:02 GMT -5
The DC-1 actually using the analog input works as a good pre-amp with volume control. No it's not an XSP-1, but damn is it transparent. Also the way it works is that it uses a different signal path - an analog only sort of circuit. For instance when they do this the headphone amps power on the DC-1 goes up because it frees up the power taken by the dac section (I assume). I really enjoyed using the analog pass through. It's definitely not an afterthought but a nice pre-amp. Now if you want it to be a passthrough you set the volume as 0.00 and that is the passthrough setting for volume. You can describe the DC-1 as having something similar to a straight wire with gain for its analog input in sound signature. The XSP-1 could be described as straight music with gain Different flavors. Okay so you are looking for used cheap equipment. Good news! Get yourself a used UPA-2. This is very close to an XPA-200. You can get them for ridiculously cheap. Like $250-350. It's sort of insane how little they sell for. This is what I would do. A pair of UPA-1 monoblocks sells for around $500. I mean these are great prices for really good gear. Somebody was selling these for $350 for a pair (woah!) but that happens almost never. The mini-x will drive your speakers. But let's be honest, once you hear it and how good it sounds you're really going to want to go a bit higher. From the day I got my UPA-2 I was drooling about an XPA-1. That's how good the audio quality was. I just kept thinking how much better could it be? Thanks for that clarification. I just noticed that as a preamp, you got to have a tonal control, bass and tremble adjustment. I guess that is the only thing missing from dc1. Anyway, you cannot have everything for that price. I just noticed that there is a market on this forum. I used to search on audiogon, eBay, or Craigslist. What you said about the desire for better sound quality has actually started bothering me. I was happy with xda+mini. Now I think that at least that I should get to DC1. As for amp, at least 100 w. Hope it does not make a big hole in my pocket.  |
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Post by neo on Apr 15, 2015 0:01:46 GMT -5
the mini x will more then handle ur speakers Hi pallpoul, would you explain to me why 50 Watt is sufficient? At my speakers can handle 50 W without much distortion |
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Post by garbulky on Apr 15, 2015 0:43:52 GMT -5
I can. It depends on your volume. If you use a subwoofer etc.
Basically most of your listening is literally done with maybe a watt or two. For instance Klipsch does maybe a fraction of a watt for normal listening power. That is regular listening volume. The extra watts is used to deliver dynamic peaks. The power requirements go up exponentially as the volume levels rises. But....at regular volumes you cruise at about a watt with some peaks taking up large amounts of power (several hundred watts for short time). I listened to the mini-x in very large living room and I didn't restrict the volume. I was perfectly happy with it. Now the owner of the amp said that it did have its limits but for our regular listening we didn't have problems. At very loud volumes the peaks may hit several hundred watts. So basically it's all about the size of your room, the distance from the speakers and your sound loudness level. I isten at about 60 something db with peaks in teh 70 db. People that like rock maybe listening at 90 db which would take way more power.
As for tonal controls, I have never used it and I bet most people here rarely use them. The tonal controls on the XSP-1 only adjust the bass and treble by a few db. They are meant for subtle changes.
The subwoofer outputs are definitely useful. But in case you don't know you can use a subwoofer with the DC-1 or the XDA-2. Both XLR and RCA outputs work at the same time. For instance the XLR hooks to the subwoofer and the RCA's hook to the amps. Then you dial in the subwoofer using the subwoofer bass and crossover controls. However the XSP-1 does have superior bass management for subwoofers. But it's not impossible with a DC-1 or XDA-2.
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Post by neo on Apr 15, 2015 16:11:38 GMT -5
I can. It depends on your volume. If you use a subwoofer etc. Basically most of your listening is literally done with maybe a watt or two. For instance Klipsch does maybe a fraction of a watt for normal listening power. That is regular listening volume. The extra watts is used to deliver dynamic peaks. The power requirements go up exponentially as the volume levels rises. But....at regular volumes you cruise at about a watt with some peaks taking up large amounts of power (several hundred watts for short time). I listened to the mini-x in very large living room and I didn't restrict the volume. I was perfectly happy with it. Now the owner of the amp said that it did have its limits but for our regular listening we didn't have problems. At very loud volumes the peaks may hit several hundred watts. So basically it's all about the size of your room, the distance from the speakers and your sound loudness level. I isten at about 60 something db with peaks in teh 70 db. People that like rock maybe listening at 90 db which would take way more power. As for tonal controls, I have never used it and I bet most people here rarely use them. The tonal controls on the XSP-1 only adjust the bass and treble by a few db. They are meant for subtle changes. The subwoofer outputs are definitely useful. But in case you don't know you can use a subwoofer with the DC-1 or the XDA-2. Both XLR and RCA outputs work at the same time. For instance the XLR hooks to the subwoofer and the RCA's hook to the amps. Then you dial in the subwoofer using the subwoofer bass and crossover controls. However the XSP-1 does have superior bass management for subwoofers. But it's not impossible with a DC-1 or XDA-2. HI Garbulky, Thanks for your explanation. So If I understand you correctly: my speakers normally uses a couple of watts on a normal volume. But depending on the music, the transient power consumption can be significantly larger than a couple of watts. So if the power amp cannot provide that much transient power, then the sound at that moment will be clipped. It looks like the dynamic range in films and digital cameras. Therefore, the more powerful the amp, the more dynamic range you will get for your system. But you may never need this much range cause your room size, your ears' comfortable zone kind of things. You are right. normally I will not listen to music with the volume all the way up. Should I pay more money for upgradability later? hmm, that's another tough question. |
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Post by garbulky on Apr 15, 2015 16:21:55 GMT -5
It is a tough one I can tell you that none of the emotiva amps are wimpy. For instance, you will encounter many AVR's that say 100 watts a channel but in reality they can't push that out. The emotiva amps can absolutely do it. If you ever had computer systems you will see speakers which say 500 watt sound system. They are laughably poor performing compared to even the mini-x. I had a UPA-2 and something I found is that when I accidentally delivered a line level signal - it didn't audibly clip. So that was pretty impressive. Try turning the volume all the way up on another cheap amp and you will hear clipping probably when you get to past half volume. The good news is that Emotiva products have decent resale values compared to other brands because of their transferrable warranty. Also they usually have a trial period and the return shipping is very little. The best value is buying on the used market imo. My UPA-2 doesn't deliver anywhere near the rated power of my speakers - which are rated at 400 watts. But they don't have a real problem driving them |
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 15, 2015 16:38:25 GMT -5
I've run my speakers (same model as garbulky - Axiom M80) with everything from the Emotiva Mini-X to the Emotiva XPR-2. At the "normal" levels that I listen at, you'd be surprised how little difference there was. This is NOT a slam against the XPR amps - they're definitely worth their price - but it IS a real compliment to the Mini-X, which I think is one of the best bargains in the Emotiva lineup. If you're playing your speakers at their full "rated wattage," then you're damaging your ears, period. You're also risking damage to the speakers themselves. Nobody listens that loudly on a constant basis (well, OK - Maybe novisnick, but we KNOW he's nuts! LOL). The smart way to go, if you really want LOUD, is to use high sensitivity speakers (and maybe more than one per side). This has multiple benefits - The speaker cones each need to move less to provide the same sound pressure level (SPL), and therefore they're less likely to physically bottom out & destroy themselves. You also get less distortion from the speakers (less cone movement = less total intermodulation distortion). And finally, provided you keep your load within the envelope of the amp's capability, you get less total harmonic distortion (THD) from the amplifier itself. There's no way to lose! I laugh out loud at "full range" speakers with 5" drivers. Yes, they may be able to play across a wide frequency range, but they're only doing it at virtually inaudible levels. Try to crank them up and one (or more) of several things happen - They lose their frequency extension & play more loudly, but with reduced range They bottom out on their cone-travel and tear themselves loose from the voice coil They distort like crazy The voice coils heat up & provide LOTS more resistance to the amplifier, therefore self-limiting their own volume You want volume, you get it by moving more air. There's a reason that "pro sound" speakers intended to rock out bars, clubs, and stadiums all have HUGE woofers1 The other way to get volume is to horn-load the drivers. By improving the coupling to the air, a (much) smaller cone movement results in a (much) louder volume. Note as I previously mentioned that lower distortion (of several types) is also achieved with horn loading. But I digress - With a Mini-X and a pair of Klipschorns, I can play louder than even NovisNick can stand (and it'll STILL be clean!). Cheers - Boom |
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Post by neo on Apr 15, 2015 20:56:23 GMT -5
It is a tough one I can tell you that none of the emotiva amps are wimpy. For instance, you will encounter many AVR's that say 100 watts a channel but in reality they can't push that out. The emotiva amps can absolutely do it. If you ever had computer systems you will see speakers which say 500 watt sound system. They are laughably poor performing compared to even the mini-x. I had a UPA-2 and something I found is that when I accidentally delivered a line level signal - it didn't audibly clip. So that was pretty impressive. Try turning the volume all the way up on another cheap amp and you will hear clipping probably when you get to past half volume. The good news is that Emotiva products have decent resale values compared to other brands because of their transferrable warranty. Also they usually have a trial period and the return shipping is very little. The best value is buying on the used market imo. My UPA-2 doesn't deliver anywhere near the rated power of my speakers - which are rated at 400 watts. But they don't have a real problem driving them I guess I will settle down with those within my budget. I think this may be a life-time hobby. So no hurry. When I'm sure my music demand more sound quality, I will upgrade then. By the way, how many times have you seen the emo sale events? once a year? |
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Post by neo on Apr 15, 2015 20:59:30 GMT -5
I've run my speakers (same model as garbulky - Axiom M80) with everything from the Emotiva Mini-X to the Emotiva XPR-2. At the "normal" levels that I listen at, you'd be surprised how little difference there was. This is NOT a slam against the XPR amps - they're definitely worth their price - but it IS a real compliment to the Mini-X, which I think is one of the best bargains in the Emotiva lineup. If you're playing your speakers at their full "rated wattage," then you're damaging your ears, period. You're also risking damage to the speakers themselves. Nobody listens that loudly on a constant basis (well, OK - Maybe novisnick, but we KNOW he's nuts! LOL). The smart way to go, if you really want LOUD, is to use high sensitivity speakers (and maybe more than one per side). This has multiple benefits - The speaker cones each need to move less to provide the same sound pressure level (SPL), and therefore they're less likely to physically bottom out & destroy themselves. You also get less distortion from the speakers (less cone movement = less total intermodulation distortion). And finally, provided you keep your load within the envelope of the amp's capability, you get less total harmonic distortion (THD) from the amplifier itself. There's no way to lose! I laugh out loud at "full range" speakers with 5" drivers. Yes, they may be able to play across a wide frequency range, but they're only doing it at virtually inaudible levels. Try to crank them up and one (or more) of several things happen - They lose their frequency extension & play more loudly, but with reduced range They bottom out on their cone-travel and tear themselves loose from the voice coil They distort like crazy The voice coils heat up & provide LOTS more resistance to the amplifier, therefore self-limiting their own volume You want volume, you get it by moving more air. There's a reason that "pro sound" speakers intended to rock out bars, clubs, and stadiums all have HUGE woofers1 The other way to get volume is to horn-load the drivers. By improving the coupling to the air, a (much) smaller cone movement results in a (much) louder volume. Note as I previously mentioned that lower distortion (of several types) is also achieved with horn loading. But I digress - With a Mini-X and a pair of Klipschorns, I can play louder than even NovisNick can stand (and it'll STILL be clean!). Cheers - Boom Thank you Boom! Is there a way to measure how much power the speaker is outputting ? I would like to figure out how much power is comfortable to my ears. |
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Post by novisnick on Apr 15, 2015 21:08:43 GMT -5
Hi neo, an SPL meter would give you what your looking for.
It's a sound pressure level measuring device.
You can get a reasonable idea from the many apps available for most any smart phone. I wouldn't use it for accurate measurements but it'll get you in the ballpark.
Good luck. 8)
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Post by garbulky on Apr 15, 2015 21:12:30 GMT -5
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Post by neo on Apr 16, 2015 23:51:24 GMT -5
Thanks. I just did a calculation: I was playing music and using the APP Decibel 10th to measure the sound pressure. When playing quietly, its between 50-60. When I want to play loud, it goes to 90db. The max can go to 97db. My Monitor Audio GR10 is rated at 88db sensitivity. So I plugged all these into the formula, it gives me 2 watt. When at Maximal, the power demand is only 16 watts. It looks that it does not need much power. But why many people suggested me to get a 100 wpc amp? |
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Post by garbulky on Apr 16, 2015 23:56:03 GMT -5
did you input distance?
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Post by neo on Apr 17, 2015 0:34:03 GMT -5
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Post by garbulky on Apr 17, 2015 1:04:20 GMT -5
So you plan to listen from three feet (1 meter) away? Then yeah, you will need very little power! The mini-x will be plenty. However, I reccomend if you really want to get the benfit of your purchase to put more distance between you and the speakers. It will help make the soundstage bigger and the sound feel "deeper" and a bit more 3 dimensional. At those really close distances, personally, I would just get you a DC-1 and airmotiv 4 and call it a day. Don't worry about an XSP-1 or anything. It will sound as good as it can be at that disance. The airmotiv 4's are originally designed to be nearfield monitors which is the distance you are listening at. That's not saying the am4's don't do better at larger distances, just that it does well as a monitor. Spend your savings on something else Maybe a small subwoofer. So this is for an office or a college desk or something? If not, then I really recommend moving the speakers father away from you and further apart. |
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Post by neo on Apr 17, 2015 18:55:05 GMT -5
So you plan to listen from three feet (1 meter) away? Then yeah, you will need very little power! The mini-x will be plenty. However, I reccomend if you really want to get the benfit of your purchase to put more distance between you and the speakers. It will help make the soundstage bigger and the sound feel "deeper" and a bit more 3 dimensional. At those really close distances, personally, I would just get you a DC-1 and airmotiv 4 and call it a day. Don't worry about an XSP-1 or anything. It will sound as good as it can be at that disance. The airmotiv 4's are originally designed to be nearfield monitors which is the distance you are listening at. That's not saying the am4's don't do better at larger distances, just that it does well as a monitor. Spend your savings on something else Maybe a small subwoofer. So this is for an office or a college desk or something? If not, then I really recommend moving the speakers father away from you and further apart. Very interesting! I never thought about this. I was thinking that I can just put the speakers in front of my desk, which is already close to the wall. So there isn't much space to push the speakers back. I read an article before, saying that you will never get a better sounding stage from headphones than from speakers. I guess that's the theories you were talking about. Now I need to plan my space now. So what are the ideal layout? I listen to classic. I guess it needs to reproduce a larger sound stage than folks, country musics. |
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Post by garbulky on Apr 17, 2015 20:40:06 GMT -5
Oh boy neo! Okay let's start with the basics. But first...you should know something. I listened at the distance you talked about for about ten years for several hours a day. So I do have some idea of what I'm going to advice you on. It was in a college dorm. I ended putting my speakers up on my bunk bed and a tall shelf on the other side so it could be closer to my ear and sat far away from them. I still wasn't really satisfied. But anyway.... You know all the little details you've had questions about like the pre-amp quality, the dac quality amp quality etc.? It all pales in comparison the large impact you will incur from having them on the desk so clsoe to you. Basically I doubt they would make little difference. The problem is a narrow speaker placemnt will limit the soundstage to being well - three feet wide. So that means that you will hear sounds from the center and left and right and that's about it. You won't hear it spread out with lots of detail as there's just not enough for it. A short listening distance away limits (a little bit) the kind of depth that you will hear....behind the plane of the speakers. It also definitely limits the effect of having the musicians come out into the living room between you and the speaker (in front oft he speaker). Basically we are talking about a flattening. Having the speakers right agains the wall will provide some bass boost, but may also provide some muddying up of the sound caused by reflections. Having the speakers below your ear level will cause a large treble descrease from the tweeter. Basically it will sound just a wee bit dull in sound on the treble. So here's a real life example: I've heard records like peter paul and mary where they have the voices coming from all sides. Then you have the guitar farther on the outside....but behind the voice. There may be another guitar or maybe a drum cymbal in front of the voice on the inside of the left side. You have a double bass going in the corner of the room....and it's much farther away. A bit more muffled due to distance. Meanwhile the room it was recorded in will also give you an idea of its size. It can make you feel like you were there. Like you were in a large hall or in a small recording studio. On scottbradleelovesya youtube channel, he records in a small appartment studio with lots of instruments. You can feel the effect of the walls that his piano is pushed right up against etc. It's going to be hard to hear this kind of detail on a near field setup. It tends to gel together. If possible you want to sit quite bit further back. The speakers need to be much further apart to get a good effect. Basically the idea is to put them on stands at around ear height in a living room. Sit further back and have the speakers about as wide apart as half the maximum distance your eyes can see. That's how I have it. You can have it wider too. There's lots of speaker stuff. Anyway what I was trying to tell you is that all the electronics you throw at it won't solve the problem of space  So, I would personally get something like an airmotiv 4 and connect it to a DC-1 for your situation. If all your audio is going to be by computer, and mainly CD's yo ucan go even cheaper with a Behringer UCA 202 DAC (it costs $30 from amazon) - I have it and it will sound pretty much as good as you can get it. The DC-1 may sound a little better and provide you a very nice headphone amp. But I wouldn't spend a whole lot of money for a nearfield listening setup. Not trying to diss your situation, I just don't want you to spend needlessly when you don't have to. Now if you do have the oppurtunity to shift it to a larger space with speaker stands that's definitely what you would want to do. You may also encounter a lot of pleasure by buying a DC-1 and getting yourself a really nice set of headphones instead of speakers. You would get a lot nicer soundstage at near field with it. Just be careful to match the headphones to the DC-1's headphone amp. So for instance a hifiman planar magnetic headphone wouldn't work wonders. But a Mr speakers Alphadog headphone might just about make you go nuts with pleasure I think the best value for money is a the Emotiva airmotiv setup I mentioned. It's airmotion folded ribbon tweeter sounds very clear and of low coloration. Heck even stereophile that usually reviews $60,000 speakers went nuts over this tiny unit www.stereophile.com/content/emotiva-audio-pro-airmotiv-4s-powered-loudspeakerHere's my friends setup: It has the best sound I have heard:  Here's my much smaller living room setup: It's an outdated picture and I have different gear now. Also the closeness to the corner wall is not ideal but it is what it is  Both pictures are taken from the couch. Here are other pictures of emotiva users gear setup emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/21990/room-emo-gear?page=143Some of them are indeed near field so they may help you. Nearfield they tend to get stands or the ASM bracket from emotiva to angle the speaker uptowards the ear. |
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Post by neo on Apr 18, 2015 16:50:32 GMT -5
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Different flavors. 
