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Post by ansat on May 8, 2015 20:52:33 GMT -5
Tony can you detect any audible difference. Things seem to be working correctly after the factory restore but still would be nice to know what caused the anomalies. I wonder if Nick has restored his machine. I didn't A/B anything (didn't even have the amps on) Sorry. Tony |
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RSavage
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Post by RSavage on May 8, 2015 20:54:52 GMT -5
Great news!
Thanks for following through on this Tony and Ray.
Ray
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Post by petes on May 9, 2015 1:47:23 GMT -5
Some interesting results this go around. View AttachmentYELLOW = FULL RANGE FRONT (Stayed the same in all 3 test sets) LIGHT GREEN = LFE in LFE out with factory restore and settings reloaded. DARK GREEN = Left in Left out with factory restore and settings reloaded. RED = LFE in LFE out before factory restore (was not able to get this result again after the factory reset) So I ran three tests. I measured full range left speaker, LFE, xover left speaker and xover sub for each of the three tests. The first test was my settings before a factory restore. The second was after a factory restore. The third was after a restore of my settings. On the initial results I was able to get some odd behavior from the LFE channel, but after the factory reset, I could not get the same odd results even when I restored my settings. I attempted to move the levels, enhanced bass, Reference stereo and changing the crossover. No matter what I changed, the reloaded settings and the factory restore results are now the same and do not exhibit the same trouble seen before the restore. Sorry raydyo, I have no method of reproducing the results any further since the restore. Tony All measurements - my first set & all 3 tests today. All measurementsHi Tony Thanks from us all for all of the hard work on this one. Just to be clear, you backed up all of your settings (to USB?), did a reset, reloaded the backup settings, and that was it? If so, sounds like a good idea for us all as its pretty straight forwards  ? Pete S |
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Post by ansat on May 9, 2015 6:35:24 GMT -5
Some interesting results this go around. View AttachmentYELLOW = FULL RANGE FRONT (Stayed the same in all 3 test sets) LIGHT GREEN = LFE in LFE out with factory restore and settings reloaded. DARK GREEN = Left in Left out with factory restore and settings reloaded. RED = LFE in LFE out before factory restore (was not able to get this result again after the factory reset) So I ran three tests. I measured full range left speaker, LFE, xover left speaker and xover sub for each of the three tests. The first test was my settings before a factory restore. The second was after a factory restore. The third was after a restore of my settings. On the initial results I was able to get some odd behavior from the LFE channel, but after the factory reset, I could not get the same odd results even when I restored my settings. I attempted to move the levels, enhanced bass, Reference stereo and changing the crossover. No matter what I changed, the reloaded settings and the factory restore results are now the same and do not exhibit the same trouble seen before the restore. Sorry raydyo, I have no method of reproducing the results any further since the restore. Tony All measurements - my first set & all 3 tests today. All measurementsHi Tony Thanks from us all for all of the hard work on this one. Just to be clear, you backed up all of your settings (to USB?), did a reset, reloaded the backup settings, and that was it? If so, sounds like a good idea for us all as its pretty straight forwards ? Pete S Pete, You are correct. If your getting odd behavior, it's a goof first troubleshooting step. Tony |
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bootman
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Post by bootman on May 9, 2015 8:28:53 GMT -5
So the question still remains how the XMC got into this state.
Would repeated runs of the Dirac software eventually do this? (or more likely failed runs where one experiences a lockup of some kind)
I don't think anyone has run Dirac among us more than Tony (ansat).
Something to try in the lab?
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Post by ansat on May 9, 2015 8:50:41 GMT -5
So the question still remains how the XMC got into this state. Would repeated runs of the Dirac software eventually do this? (or more likely failed runs where one experiences a lockup of some kind) I don't think anyone has run Dirac among us more than Tony (ansat). Something to try in the lab? The factory reset does not touch the dsp (which is where the dirac filters are stored). But you might be on to something with the amount of tweaking that I do. I was thinking about that this morning. Since I mess with both presets and dirac, I was thinking that maybe my peq from one of the presets somehow got applied over dirac. My next steps are to alter the peq and measure dirac again to see if there are changes. |
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Post by nickwin on May 9, 2015 9:32:04 GMT -5
Some interesting results this go around. View AttachmentYELLOW = FULL RANGE FRONT (Stayed the same in all 3 test sets) LIGHT GREEN = LFE in LFE out with factory restore and settings reloaded. DARK GREEN = Left in Left out with factory restore and settings reloaded. RED = LFE in LFE out before factory restore (was not able to get this result again after the factory reset) So I ran three tests. I measured full range left speaker, LFE, xover left speaker and xover sub for each of the three tests. The first test was my settings before a factory restore. The second was after a factory restore. The third was after a restore of my settings. On the initial results I was able to get some odd behavior from the LFE channel, but after the factory reset, I could not get the same odd results even when I restored my settings. I attempted to move the levels, enhanced bass, Reference stereo and changing the crossover. No matter what I changed, the reloaded settings and the factory restore results are now the same and do not exhibit the same trouble seen before the restore. Sorry raydyo, I have no method of reproducing the results any further since the restore. Tony All measurements - my first set & all 3 tests today. All measurementsThanks for taking the time to do this Tony. These are not the results I hoped for. Honestly I would have been happy to see some definitive issue that could be pinpointed and resolved, instead of this elusive inconsistent behavior. I'd take consistently bad over inconsistent. Theres really no way to know at this point how often this (or other anomalies) come up. The fact that I measured it, and then Tony measured the same thing on his first attempt leads me to believe that its not super uncommon. At the same time 2 or 3 other people measured and didn't see this behavior so its clearly not all the time either. I don't know what to think. With what we know now, Is it still best practice to move the curtains of the mains to the crossover point? |
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Post by nickwin on May 9, 2015 9:34:23 GMT -5
So the question still remains how the XMC got into this state. Would repeated runs of the Dirac software eventually do this? (or more likely failed runs where one experiences a lockup of some kind) I don't think anyone has run Dirac among us more than Tony (ansat). Something to try in the lab? The factory reset does not touch the dsp (which is where the dirac filters are stored). But you might be on to something with the amount of tweaking that I do. I was thinking about that this morning. Since I mess with both presets and dirac, I was thinking that maybe my peq from one of the presets somehow got applied over dirac. My next steps are to alter the peq and measure dirac again to see if there are changes. Iv wondered the same thing. Things seemed to get worse for me the more times I load the same project file. Things got really weird on me one time when I was playing with the crossover slopes and crossover points, switching them back and forth a bunch of times, but doing a restore and taking new measurements seemed to fix it. |
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Post by nickwin on May 9, 2015 9:36:31 GMT -5
Tony can you detect any audible difference. Things seem to be working correctly after the factory restore but still would be nice to know what caused the anomalies. I wonder if Nick has restored his machine. I always load filters on to a fresh factory reset with the only settings changed being speaker size and crossover. |
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Post by ansat on May 9, 2015 9:36:48 GMT -5
Some interesting results this go around. View AttachmentYELLOW = FULL RANGE FRONT (Stayed the same in all 3 test sets) LIGHT GREEN = LFE in LFE out with factory restore and settings reloaded. DARK GREEN = Left in Left out with factory restore and settings reloaded. RED = LFE in LFE out before factory restore (was not able to get this result again after the factory reset) So I ran three tests. I measured full range left speaker, LFE, xover left speaker and xover sub for each of the three tests. The first test was my settings before a factory restore. The second was after a factory restore. The third was after a restore of my settings. On the initial results I was able to get some odd behavior from the LFE channel, but after the factory reset, I could not get the same odd results even when I restored my settings. I attempted to move the levels, enhanced bass, Reference stereo and changing the crossover. No matter what I changed, the reloaded settings and the factory restore results are now the same and do not exhibit the same trouble seen before the restore. Sorry raydyo, I have no method of reproducing the results any further since the restore. Tony All measurements - my first set & all 3 tests today. All measurementsThanks for taking the time to do this Tony. These are not the results I hoped for. Honestly I would have been happy to see some definitive issue that could be pinpointed and resolved, instead of this elusive inconsistent behavior. I'd take consistently bad over inconsistent. Theres really no way to know at this point how often this (or other anomalies) come up. The fact that I measured it, and then tony measured the same thing on his first attempt leads me to belie that its not super uncommon. At the same time 2 or 3 other people measured and didn't see this behavior so its clearly not all the time either. I don't know what to think. So with what we know now? Is it still best practice to move the curtains of the mains to the crossover point? Not sure -- But I am going to try a few more things when I get a chance to see if I can find out what happened. At this point I feel that if I can reproduce it again, then I can get Ray to fix it. Tony |
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Post by nickwin on May 9, 2015 9:40:35 GMT -5
Thanks for taking the time to do this Tony. These are not the results I hoped for. Honestly I would have been happy to see some definitive issue that could be pinpointed and resolved, instead of this elusive inconsistent behavior. I'd take consistently bad over inconsistent. Theres really no way to know at this point how often this (or other anomalies) come up. The fact that I measured it, and then tony measured the same thing on his first attempt leads me to belie that its not super uncommon. At the same time 2 or 3 other people measured and didn't see this behavior so its clearly not all the time either. I don't know what to think. So with what we know now? Is it still best practice to move the curtains of the mains to the crossover point? Not sure -- But I am going to try a few more things when I get a chance to see if I can find out what happened. At this point I feel that if I can reproduce it again, then I can get Ray to fix it. Tony I think so too. Good luck and god speed!!!  |
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Post by nickwin on May 9, 2015 9:41:01 GMT -5
Out of curiosity, and to repeat what socketman asked early on in this thread to which it doesn't seem like anyone answered, what are the audible effects of this strange routed bass behavior? Or is it all reading graphs and stuff?  Theres no reason to think that if you can hear the difference Dirac makes on your bass when working properly, that you would not hear what Tony measured in his previous measurements. That graph showed that the Dirac filters were being totally changed, any house curve applied to the sub would be pretty much erased. I don't know what his unEQ'ed response looks like but just going by the filters that are being applied to his LFE, its quite possible that the routed bass resulting from the filters in that particiular graph would be less linear than no EQ at all. |
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Post by raydyo on May 11, 2015 9:07:25 GMT -5
Some interesting results this go around. YELLOW = FULL RANGE FRONT (Stayed the same in all 3 test sets) LIGHT GREEN = LFE in LFE out with factory restore and settings reloaded. DARK GREEN = Left in Left out with factory restore and settings reloaded. RED = LFE in LFE out before factory restore (was not able to get this result again after the factory reset) So I ran three tests. I measured full range left speaker, LFE, xover left speaker and xover sub for each of the three tests. The first test was my settings before a factory restore. The second was after a factory restore. The third was after a restore of my settings. On the initial results I was able to get some odd behavior from the LFE channel, but after the factory reset, I could not get the same odd results even when I restored my settings. I attempted to move the levels, enhanced bass, Reference stereo and changing the crossover. No matter what I changed, the reloaded settings and the factory restore results are now the same and do not exhibit the same trouble seen before the restore. Sorry raydyo, I have no method of reproducing the results any further since the restore. Tony All measurements - my first set & all 3 tests today. All measurementsThanks, Tony. If you (or someone else) can come up with a repeatable way to get to the odd filter behavior, I will be happy to look at it. So far I can't see it here. I can't fix what I can't see. I will keep an eye, too. Not a real satisfying answer, I know. But it's the only one I have right now. |
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Post by Kir on May 14, 2015 14:39:29 GMT -5
If the filters are created ignoring the crossover, but then applied after the crossover, the end result would be wrong. I think your looking at this wrong. Filters after the crossover means thay each speaker gets the filters intended for that speaker. If the filters were before the crossover, then you would get filters from the mains passed to the sub. I agree on this part. But look at it from a different perspective: if the filters ignore the crossover, they might raise the frequencies affected by it, changing it's cutoff. |
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Post by nickwin on May 16, 2015 10:38:04 GMT -5
I think your looking at this wrong. Filters after the crossover means thay each speaker gets the filters intended for that speaker. If the filters were before the crossover, then you would get filters from the mains passed to the sub. I agree on this part. But look at it from a different perspective: if the filters ignore the crossover, they might raise the frequencies affected by it, changing it's cutoff. The filters are there to make the response more linear. If anything those filters will make the crossover behave more like you want it to. The crossovers assume that they have two flat responses to begin with. |
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Post by nickwin on May 16, 2015 10:41:34 GMT -5
Some interesting results this go around. YELLOW = FULL RANGE FRONT (Stayed the same in all 3 test sets) LIGHT GREEN = LFE in LFE out with factory restore and settings reloaded. DARK GREEN = Left in Left out with factory restore and settings reloaded. RED = LFE in LFE out before factory restore (was not able to get this result again after the factory reset) So I ran three tests. I measured full range left speaker, LFE, xover left speaker and xover sub for each of the three tests. The first test was my settings before a factory restore. The second was after a factory restore. The third was after a restore of my settings. On the initial results I was able to get some odd behavior from the LFE channel, but after the factory reset, I could not get the same odd results even when I restored my settings. I attempted to move the levels, enhanced bass, Reference stereo and changing the crossover. No matter what I changed, the reloaded settings and the factory restore results are now the same and do not exhibit the same trouble seen before the restore. Sorry raydyo, I have no method of reproducing the results any further since the restore. Tony All measurements - my first set & all 3 tests today. All measurementsThanks, Tony. If you (or someone else) can come up with a repeatable way to get to the odd filter behavior, I will be happy to look at it. So far I can't see it here. I can't fix what I can't see. I will keep an eye, too. Not a real satisfying answer, I know. But it's the only one I have right now. Ray, I think that's more than fair. Thanks for taking the time to look Into it and please keep your eyes open for this going forward. I'm sure you will hear if any of us can pinpoint it. Nick |
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Post by igorzep on May 22, 2015 6:38:37 GMT -5
If you (or someone else) can come up with a repeatable way to get to the odd filter behavior, I will be happy to look at it. So far I can't see it here. I can't fix what I can't see. I will keep an eye, too. Not a real satisfying answer, I know. But it's the only one I have right now. Fair. I have recently found this thread as I am calibrating my system and was not satisfied with the sub EQ performance. This topic scared me a little, but good that it is not 'by design' and at least doesn't seem to happen too often. But still... I have a questions about the sub calibration with Dirac and it's integration with Bass Management. It is important to know the details as to ensure best calibration... Hope to get some clarifications on the way it is working. Correct me if I am wrong somewhere... 1) Dirac measures speakers and sub full range... 2) It creates filters for a target curve for every speaker calibrated and also time aligns them. From the target curves it suggests by default it can be seen that there is clearly an overlap region when both are equalized the same. This have the consequence of being phase coherent over this region (assuming the target is minimum-phase here) 3) The filters and corresponding delays are applied for the physical speakers as the last DSP steps. So far so good. Then questions come. We add a crossover. 4) We are crossing over sat/sub with Bass Management at some frequency in the middle of the overlap region. As speakers are pre-processed already and supposed to be phase coherent over the crossover region the crossover is expected to be phase coherent too. Is it Linkwitz-Riley 2-nd or 4-th (depending on the chosen 12 or 24 db/oct. slope)? Or is it something else? If it is usual alignment with SW getting LR4 low-pass and satellite getting a 2nd order Butterworth - we get a problem as this alignment assumes another 2-nd order Butterworth characteristics of the (equalized) speaker and this doesn't seem to be what the Dirac targets... And we get far from ideal integration with a dip in the middle due to phase mismatch... Before I got to the measurements - how is it supposed to work actually? |
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Post by mcluvin on May 29, 2015 12:39:37 GMT -5
Just wanted to chime in and let you guys know that I think I ran into this issue last night after running Dirac for the first time. After the filters were loaded to the XMC-1, I played some test material (movies) that I am familiar with. The first two movies seemed ok and I was overall pleased with the results but when I queued up the third movie for preview (War of the Worlds), that's when things when wrong. My whole system sounded like it was buckling on the pod emergence scene and my satellites sounded strained beyond belief. It sounded like something was broke it was so bad. It sounded like my satellites (bookshelf studio monitors) were being forced to play the full frequency range as the subs were not doing much of anything. Luckily I remembered this thread so I shutdown the XMC-1 with the switch in the back and rebooted. Once back I up I replayed WOW and it was a totally different experience (played like it was supposed too). So I don't know if my problem was the same as described here but the reset did fix it and now it sounds great. I plan on doing a fresh reboot every time now when I load new filters. Hope this helps anyone that might experience this.
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Post by theswede on Jun 12, 2019 6:36:14 GMT -5
This is one of the more insightful threads on the XMC-1 bass issues which I have seen and hoping to resurrect this conversation now that some of us may consider the XMC-2 and to what extent the bass management implementation has changed. I've had both issues outlined here and the one where the redirected bass response varied I have not managed to get fixed and it really is an odd one, typically directly after a new measurement it would give a smooth bass response but 30 minutes later it would give a peak on the left channel sub and an inverted one the right channel sub. If I did the center channel or set the subs to dual mono it would be fine again. I concluded this was not a big issue though as the room response would be as if they were run in dual mono. I did however manage to sort of find an issue that is repeatable in my setup wrt the perceived lack of bass after running Dirac. The blueish line is what I get directly after running dirac and the green line is the result after changing the crossover slope to whatever it was not when I did the measurements. This is consistent in my set up and it does not matter which settings other than me changing it after the measurement. It would be interesting if anyone else having the "missing bass issue" can replicate this with similar results?  |
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Post by ansat on Jun 12, 2019 7:15:11 GMT -5
This is one of the more insightful threads on the XMC-1 bass issues which I have seen and hoping to resurrect this conversation now that some of us may consider the XMC-2 and to what extent the bass management implementation has changed. I've had both issues outlined here and the one where the redirected bass response varied I have not managed to get fixed and it really is an odd one, typically directly after a new measurement it would give a smooth bass response but 30 minutes later it would give a peak on the left channel sub and an inverted one the right channel sub. If I did the center channel or set the subs to dual mono it would be fine again. I concluded this was not a big issue though as the room response would be as if they were run in dual mono. I did however manage to sort of find an issue that is repeatable in my setup wrt the perceived lack of bass after running Dirac. The blueish line is what I get directly after running dirac and the green line is the result after changing the crossover slope to whatever it was not when I did the measurements. This is consistent in my set up and it does not matter which settings other than me changing it after the measurement. It would be interesting if anyone else having the "missing bass issue" can replicate this with similar results? I had similar results at points. I am not a fan of setting delays by the impulse. If you have a phase adjustment on your subs, you can likely get it to play nice with the xover point. My recommendation still stands that an external sub controller like the Dayton or minidsp is the best bet. T |
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