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Post by garbulky on May 9, 2015 11:29:48 GMT -5
I plan to upgrade, hopefully this year! Any suggestions would be welcome. Right now my budget isn't big but it can grow steadily. The thing is I can only buy one item at at time.
Currently the speakers are not for upgrade. When i do upgrade the speakers I hope to spend between $2000 to 6500 on them. But that won't be for so long that it won't matter on this thread.
So let me start with my dream system. Amps: XPA-1L's or XPA-1 gen 2's (or gen 1). DAC: Schiit Ygdrassil. Pre-amp: XSP-1 Gen 2. Subwoofer: Two of Powersound sealed smallest sub they have.
If I go with a smaller than XPA-1 amp, I would eventually like to bi amp. I've found bi amping my speakers does provide a more effortless coherent quality to the bass in the soundstage where things just happen with less straining.
Here's the catch: Wiht the way I'm saving: $500 doesn't take very long to come by. But a $1000 takes a lot longer. So I have been toying with the idea of an in between system - mainly in the amps.
So my choices are: Two UPA-1's. There seems to be some very nice used prices on these. Plus I think I can bi amp with my UPA-2 as well as the gain levels are matched.
One XPA-2 gen 1 or 2: This is my main conundrum. I've used this amp. It's really an excellent unit. But I want to know if two UPA-1's will be as nice or better. My gut tells me no. But I have the ability to bi amp with my UPA-2. If anybody has experience UPA-1 vs XPA-2 please share. One XPA-200. I can level match my UPA-2 and bi amp if I wish. I'm not sure I want to go this route when I can do UPA-1's.
Or. Save a bit more and jump in for a used XSP-1 gen 2. But that will leave an XSP-1 gen 2 with a UPA-2 amp. Which I've heard and sounds pretty good. But I wonder if I should go for amps first. Any suggestions on amp choice would be welcome.
Right now: I run DC-1, UPA-2, Axiom M80 v2 speakers. One ATS acoustic panel. Small living room. Volume levels aren't very loud. Between 60-ish and low 70 db. I would like a bit more lower bass performance.
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on May 9, 2015 11:44:53 GMT -5
My friend, unless your looking for D class amps I'd wait and save for the biggest amps you want and be done with them. Pre's and peripherals will come and go,,,,,,,,,amps are the workhorse!!! That drives the beast!!!
Get your foundation built, the rest will sit on.
More later.
Nick
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on May 9, 2015 11:51:59 GMT -5
I would wait to see what the class D amps bring. You may be more than surprised and pleased with them.
Mark
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Post by teaman on May 9, 2015 12:01:43 GMT -5
Hey garbulky, since I own both the UPA-1's and the XPA-2 I can tell you there is not much of a difference between the two. I think the bass produced may be a little deeper from the XPA-2 and the upper end may be a bit brighter from the UPA-1's. Overall they are both great sounding amps and you really cannot go wrong with either choice. I had the UPA-2 and it is a decent performer, well above it's price class....but either upgrade seems like a big improvement.
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Post by garbulky on May 9, 2015 12:13:29 GMT -5
I would wait to see what the class D amps bring. You may be more than surprised and pleased with them. Mark Thanks Mark, but a class D ICE amp is out for me. Now Hypex ncore is another story entirely Unfortunately it's more than I can afford right now. But I won't rule it out for my dream system. Hey garbulky, since I own both the UPA-1's and the XPA-2 I can tell you there is not much of a difference between the two. I think the bass produced may be a little deeper from the XPA-2 and the upper end may be a bit brighter from the UPA-1's. Overall they are both great sounding amps and you really cannot go wrong with either choice. I had the UPA-2 and it is a decent performer, well above it's price class....but either upgrade seems like a big improvement. Glad to hear your thoughts. Could you tell me any differences you noticed between the UPA-2 and UPA-1's? Something I noticed was the UPA-1 has a single amp blade while the UPA-2 appears to have two. So that's my reason for hesitation.
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Post by teaman on May 9, 2015 12:26:35 GMT -5
I would wait to see what the class D amps bring. You may be more than surprised and pleased with them. Mark Thanks Mark, but a class D ICE amp is out for me. Now Hypex ncore is another story entirely Unfortunately it's more than I can afford right now. But I won't rule it out for my dream system. Hey garbulky, since I own both the UPA-1's and the XPA-2 I can tell you there is not much of a difference between the two. I think the bass produced may be a little deeper from the XPA-2 and the upper end may be a bit brighter from the UPA-1's. Overall they are both great sounding amps and you really cannot go wrong with either choice. I had the UPA-2 and it is a decent performer, well above it's price class....but either upgrade seems like a big improvement. Glad to hear your thoughts. Could you tell me any differences you noticed between the UPA-2 and UPA-1's? Something I noticed was the UPA-1 has a single amp blade while the UPA-2 appears to have two. So that's my reason for hesitation. Sure gar, the single amp blade in the UPA-1 is probably because it is only running in mono, whereas the UPA-2 is stereo. The UPA-1's definitely have more grunt and play louder than the UPA-2. I am sure 200 wpc versus 125 wpc is result of larger transformers, bigger power supply and everything else. As much as I enjoyed my UPA-2, the UPA-1's are a totally different animal. Lots of improvement in the tone, depth and soundstage from the UPA-1's. This upgrade is a no brainer. To me either the XPA-2 or the UPA-1 pairing will make your system very happy without breaking your bank!
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Post by brutiarti on May 9, 2015 13:41:10 GMT -5
I agree with novisnick about the amps. Save some more to get all the power at the same time. I think the XSP will be a keeper for you so i will just pull the trigger on a used one. After that i will upgrade your DAC and close the show with the amps. In levels of happiness with my system it was like this. 50% when i upgrade the speakers, 70% when i did some room treatment, 95% when i upgraded my pre and the last 5% with the dac. Of course everything is IMO
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Post by boomzilla on May 9, 2015 15:09:12 GMT -5
OK - garbulky - Let's approach this from a different perspective. Ask first "what's the weakest point in my current system?" Speakers? No - You've got good ones that already outperform their price class. DAC? No - You've got one that both you and Mrs. Gar find "amazing." Amplifier? No - For your room size, you've got sufficient power. So what's missing? Simply - a PREAMP. You already know that your Stealth DC-1 isn't at its best driving the power amp directly. You've already heard the USP-1 and XSP-1 (Gen. 1) in your system and they both improved parts of the sound. I contend that the biggest improvement for the $$ spent is to add a preamplifier to your system. It provides several advantages: 1. The preamp has better control of the power amp(s) due to its optimized driver circuit. 2. The preamp allows you to use a variety of analog inputs 3. The preamp (either of those you should be considering) offers bass management for future subwoofers. 4. The preamp probably has a better headphone amp than the one built into your DAC. 5. The preamp offers tone controls (don't sneer) that may persuade you that you don't really need subwoofers. 6. For the money spent, the preamp offers the biggest improvement in sound quality for the $$ spent. I currently have the XSP-1, Generation 2, but I've also heard very good things about the Parasound HALO. I don't have a HALO, but you're welcome to borrow my XSP-1, Gen. 2 for the asking to see what you think of it in your system. So, to make a long story shorter, for the $1K spent, I don't think you can upgrade ANY part of your system to provide as much bang for the buck as buying a preamplifier. Subs won't work in your small room - they need more room to breathe. Power amps aren't going to do anything that a single click upward on the "bass" section of the tone controls won't. You won't buy the DAC you want for the price of the preamp. You can't upgrade your speakers for $1K - you'd just be trading one set of weaknesses for another. DYohn used to nag me about needing a preamp. I finally listened to him. He was right. What he told me, I'm telling you; get a preamp! Boomzilla
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on May 9, 2015 15:56:54 GMT -5
Boom, A lot of what you state is good advice,,,,,,all But one thing,,,,,,,,,, Please reread gars passion statement. I believe he is going for the long term rebuild of his system and not just a singular upgrade. I believe that if we were talking a short term upgrade,,,,,you've nailed it but long term is what many of us were directing our opinions towards. Over time the price of the XSP-1 will come down a little more quickly then power amps,, IMHO. I think that Gar has decided to take a treck for the longer term vs short term satisfaction, and to me, that's building from the ground up,,,,,,,,that said, Yes the pre amp will improve SQ overnight, but like myself, you boom and many others ,,,,we will go through many more preamps then amps in our life time. novis. Please take this with a bit of,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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Post by vcautokid on May 9, 2015 16:35:38 GMT -5
If given a choice how much I like the UPA-1. Which is allot. The XPA-2 is a great amp in the my speakers may change later etc. With all that headroom it has. If you are considering minis, treat yourself to,the XPA-1L's. You only once, and with the XPA-1L amps you can love the virtue of monoblocks while still having $$$$s later. My ultimate suggestion would be, get an XPA-2 first, than the XPA1L's later to run the top end in a Bi amp. Get the XSP-1 later, or blow your mind with the up and coming SP1 companion to your DC-1, instant analog digital Preamplifier. Both Balanced and single ended puts on the DC-1 can be run at the same time. If Bass management is also in the cards, then yes, an XSP-1 will be your friend.
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Post by vcautokid on May 9, 2015 16:36:36 GMT -5
That is mono's, not minis Smart phones suck.
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Post by boomzilla on May 9, 2015 16:48:26 GMT -5
Well... If Gar buys UPA-1, XPA-1L, XPA-2, or even XPA-1 power amps now, he'll always wonder if he should have held out for XPRs... If he gets the XSP-1 now, it'll not only provide an immediate improvement, but will also help with ANY future power amp he chooses.
I understand what y'all're saying, but I still vote for the preamp.
And read my tagline again! LOL
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Post by teaman on May 9, 2015 16:59:23 GMT -5
I agree with boom to a point that the UPA-2 may be sufficient to power gars room, but anyone going from a UPA-2 to either UPA-1's or a XPA-2 is going to notice a significant difference. I had my UPA-2 set up in my bedroom that measures about 14x18 and the move to an XPA-2 blew me away. I thought the same thing, the UPA-2 was plenty. It wasn't...
I would also suggest using his DAC/Pre to send signal to both the amps and a pair of powered subs. I have my XDA-2's running to a pair of Klipsch Heresies and a pair of Speakercraft subs in one room and a pair of Klipsch RC-3 II's and a pair of Infinity Subs in another room and they work amazingly well together. Even without proper bass management so many speak of when referring to the XDA-2 I have never once reached to adjust the sub levels. Seems to me that the volume of the sub via RCA increases along with the volume via XLR to the amps. If I am mistaken about how this works, I could not tell you differently from my experiences.
Also, don't be fooled with efficiency ratings on the speakers. I own a couple pair of Infinity SM 150's and 152's and they are rated at 10-300 wpc @8ohms with 102 db efficiency. When I spoke with a tech at Emotiva a couple years back and inquired about buying the UPA-200 which I felt spec wise would be plenty he told me to go bigger. He stated that because I had to power four drivers, one being a 15 inch woofer that the smaller amps would not do this easily. They quickly referred me to the XPA-2 which I then purchased over the phone. For sh*ts and grins I tried to drive the SM's with my UPA-2 and it failed to power them to anywhere near reference levels. Too much drain on the amp it seemed. Same situation when I drove my Klipsch KP-250's with the UPA-2, not nearly enough juice to fill a room with anywhere near reference levels. If you are into easy listening and maybe low to moderate music levels the amp will pull it off. If you are into rock music at louder than moderate levels like I am, not so much.
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Post by boomzilla on May 9, 2015 17:25:37 GMT -5
Gar's room is relatively small. His neighbors limit the volume. The room is easily overloaded at high volumes (the room is small). Gar's listening position is virtually "near field" (did I mention that the room is small?). Although UPA-2s may have limitations with large rooms, high volumes, or difficult to drive speakers (low efficiency and/or low impedances), for the room Gar's got, his amp is, IMHO, more than adequate. That said, Gar DOES like headroom. I've loaned him an XPA-2 before & he really liked it (his neighbors, maybe not so much...). What Gar needs, more than all else, is a bigger listening room. In short, sell the condo & buy a house with a BIG listening room. Of all the suggested "solutions," this is by far the most expensive, but also the most "long term" in terms of investment return AND musical enjoyment. Besides, when Gar-ettes come along (and they will, sooner or later), the bigger digs will be put to additional uses. SO - Forget amps, preamps, and DACs. Buy a HOUSE!
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Post by teaman on May 9, 2015 17:32:25 GMT -5
Gar's room is relatively small. His neighbors limit the volume. The room is easily overloaded at high volumes (the room is small). Gar's listening position is virtually "near field" (did I mention that the room is small?). Although UPA-2s may have limitations with large rooms, high volumes, or difficult to drive speakers (low efficiency and/or low impedances), for the room Gar's got, his amp is, IMHO, more than adequate. That said, Gar DOES like headroom. I've loaned him an XPA-2 before & he really liked it (his neighbors, maybe not so much...). What Gar needs, more than all else, is a bigger listening room. In short, sell the condo & buy a house with a BIG listening room. Of all the suggested "solutions," this is by far the most expensive, but also the most "long term" in terms of investment return AND musical enjoyment. Besides, when Gar-ettes come along (and they will, sooner or later), the bigger digs will be put to additional uses. SO - Forget amps, preamps, and DACs. Buy a HOUSE! Totally with you on this one boom!
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on May 9, 2015 17:43:42 GMT -5
Gar's room is relatively small. His neighbors limit the volume. The room is easily overloaded at high volumes (the room is small). Gar's listening position is virtually "near field" (did I mention that the room is small?). Although UPA-2s may have limitations with large rooms, high volumes, or difficult to drive speakers (low efficiency and/or low impedances), for the room Gar's got, his amp is, IMHO, more than adequate. That said, Gar DOES like headroom. I've loaned him an XPA-2 before & he really liked it (his neighbors, maybe not so much...). What Gar needs, more than all else, is a bigger listening room. In short, sell the condo & buy a house with a BIG listening room. Of all the suggested "solutions," this is by far the most expensive, but also the most "long term" in terms of investment return AND musical enjoyment. Besides, when Gar-ettes come along (and they will, sooner or later), the bigger digs will be put to additional uses. SO - Forget amps, preamps, and DACs. Buy a HOUSE! Totally with you on this one boom! Why ,,,, OH,,,,why,,,,,are we limited to the number of LIKES we can add??
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on May 9, 2015 17:45:10 GMT -5
Thanks Mark, but a class D ICE amp is out Why rule out Emo's version before you even know details? As I recall, it's rumored they are based on the ICE, but not necessarily the same. So, again..why rule them out? Mark
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Post by brubacca on May 9, 2015 20:30:58 GMT -5
Have you planned for the contingency that you may not like the components once assembled? Lets say the Iggy doesn't play well with XSP-1/XPA-1/1L combo. What goes?
Get the one first you wouldn't change.
My general opinion (which I didn't follow) was Source first. Get the source you want and build out from there. Another school of thought is get a great foundation (amp/pre) then find the source that works for you.
So if you are well intended to build around Iggy, get it first. If it's emotiva all the way i like the recommendation of Xsp-1/ Xpa-1L first. Either combo is the same price. Save up the cash. This will be time enough to let the dust settle on Iggy.
Good luck.
Btw... Another DAC getting high praise is the Chord 2Qute. Less than the Iggy, but also uses alternate technology to standard dacs. Also Rogue Audio Metis Tube Pre with XPA-2 would be a good combo at about $2,500.
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Post by garbulky on May 9, 2015 20:40:32 GMT -5
Truth be told both of you guys teaman and @bnoomzilla have very good points. On one hand, even though the UPA-2 is a heck of an amp - everybody who owns it knows how good it is. The truth is Emotiva's XPA-2 ( and hopefully, the unauditioned UPA-1) is simply superior in terms of speed, dynamic slam etc, despite my low volume listening. There is something about going zero to hero in microdynamics that gets me pretty obsessed! On the other hand: something that does improve dynamics is absolutely the pre-amp! Plus the pre-amp will be a keeper hopefully. So I see the intelligence in that suggestion, especially because I'm always banging on about the need for a pre-amp Having auditioned both in my house, the XPA-2 and the XSP-1 (and USP-1). The truth being said the XSP-1 does produce a more audible difference. A fantastic solid weight to everything, things feel more real. It feels more like a person playing rather than a "thinner" recording. But the XPA-2 does produce an audible difference too. So I'm sort of torn. I've heard my speakers biamped and there was just something very intoxicating about the seamless nature in the volumes. It just felt like it "flowed", if that makes any sense. Ever since that time, ( boomzilla, notice how often I start craving better stuff after I pay a visit to your house ), I couldn't help but notice that things didn't flow quite as well. And I would never have picked up on it, if it wasn't for hearing much more expensive gear. But, the XSP-1 isn't chump change. While the UPA-1 is more reachable. What to do, what to do! Yes people, I am torn! Lol. klinemj: Well. I'm not trrying to diss Emotiva at all. It's just that, its going to be their entry line. If their entry line tops their X-series line, they are in trouble! Also, I'm not at all sure of class D. So far the ones I've heard have had trouble at diriving large drivers in the bass department. And yes, I know about the whole Class D's used for sub amps. The only one I am much more sure of is well tested class D that has gained a real reputation. Like the hypex. Maybe the devialet. But I just don't get my heart pumped up when I think of class D. I will keep an open mind, but there's nothing that I've heard so far that makes me interested in it. Meanwhile: a friend has mentioned this: www.tubes4hifi.com/sp-13.htmHas anybody had any experience this? What about vs an XSP-1?
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Post by garbulky on May 9, 2015 20:55:40 GMT -5
Have you planned for the contingency that you may not like the components once assembled? Lets say the Iggy doesn't play well with XSP-1/XPA-1/1L combo. What goes? Get the one first you wouldn't change. My general opinion (which I didn't follow) was Source first. Get the source you want and build out from there. Another school of thought is get a great foundation (amp/pre) then find the source that works for you. So if you are well intended to build around Iggy, get it first. If it's emotiva all the way i like the recommendation of Xsp-1/ Xpa-1L first. Either combo is the same price. Save up the cash. This will be time enough to let the dust settle on Iggy. Good luck. Btw... Another DAC getting high praise is the Chord 2Qute. Less than the Iggy, but also uses alternate technology to standard dacs. Also Rogue Audio Metis Tube Pre with XPA-2 would be a good combo at about $2,500. I'm not 100% sold on the yggy yet. But it does look like it is somnething that is completely different from anything on the market. And not an approximator. So I'm just waiting on the reviews. But right now, it looks like a realistic choice. I've been looking for a DAC that can hang with the big boys. My other choice was the audio GD master 7. Wow what a unit! Problem with building on source first is....I can't afford a darn yggy for quite sometime! I've had a lot of this setup for quite a few years now and I'm hungering for a change. I've put my wants on the backburner for many years, but now it's time to satisfy them. And needless to say I'm very excited! All my spare time has been taken up trying to put away reasonably modest amounts every month to make it! So, I already know the XSP-1 and the Emotiva amps play really well together. The Yggy is the wildcard, I agree But all things lost, I could sell them for not a huge loss. P.S.: what are taps? It looks like the Chord is interested in it (and so is the yggy).
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