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Post by 405x5 on Jun 19, 2018 7:34:33 GMT -5
I see this thread was started 3 years ago with but a handful of posts, which tells us everything we need to know about Loudness compensation. Modern high power electronics and much more capable and low frequency loudspeakers have rendered the feature useless and unnecessary, but 40 years ago (longer actually) it was s cool feature to have. (RIP) Bill As long as the human ear works the way it does, something like Loudness compensation will be beneficial. If you compensate with additional sub power, and high frequency boost (it’s not just bass), then your system will be unbalanced at normal levels. We agree more than disagree, I suspect and are just stumbling over the vernacular. I totally understand en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher%E2%80%93Munson_curves. and no one is talking about having disproportionate adjustments to either high or low frequencies at any listening level. Bill
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Lonnie
Emo Staff
admin
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
Posts: 6,999
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Post by Lonnie on Jun 19, 2018 8:17:09 GMT -5
Hello. This question appears then and there so I've decided a dedicated topic is worth it. Please vote and comment... The XMC-1 has a great Loudness feature. Unfortunately as great the feature is as it is unusable. That is confirmed by many posts on forums by people that refuse to use it because they find it negatively affects the sound (over-boosting low frequencies usually). This is all because recordings are not made to follow one loudness standard and every recording is made at different level. Without the ability to account for that level difference it is simply works well only on a small part of the content. Once optimised for one type of content it beaks for another. What I suggest is a feature request that should be quite trivial to implement but make this feature not only a nice line in the specs but make it really useful and powerful tool for many owners of the XMC-1. The feature is basically the same as it exists in the Audyssey (and they also created it because users were asking!) and is called a “Reference Level Offset” or RLO for short. This means a parameter defining a level of the MV knob at which no correction is needed. Then all correction is done in relation to that level. So, let say if RLO is set to 0 - there is no correction at MV 0dB. But it is engaged as soon as MV is less than 0dB adding compensation proportionally to reducing the volume. So, let say it boosts low frequencies by 10dB when MV is at -20dB.
Then RLO can be set to some other level, like -15dB. Then there is no correction at -15dB MV and it starts to engage once volume is reduced bellow that. And the amount of correction is appropriately shifted, so, now, it applies the same amount of correction at -35dB as it was done before at -20dB in the previous example, meaning boosting low frequencies by the same 10dB.This RLO can be cycled-over by the Loudness button by some increments instead of just current On/Off. For example “0dB (Very High)”, “-5dB (High)”, “-10dB (Medium)”, “-15dB (Low)”, “-20dB (Very Low)”, “Off” settings… Currently it seems the ‘reference’ level for the XMC-1 is fixed to -10dB (the point when no correction is applied yet). But, in practice, even on softly recorded content I find the amount of correction imbalanced - when listening at -10dB MV there is not so much bass, but when I turn MV down to -40 or -50 voices basically disappear already, but bass - still every note is heard and distinguishable, meaning it adds correction too fast, faster than needed. May be this is room/target curve/preference dependent, but at least I find it is perceptibly off and quite significantly. So, I suggest another setting that will let user adjust not only the reference point but the aggressiveness of correction. This option could be hidden somewhere in the setup menu. Firs one (RLO) I consider a must for Loudness feature to be usable, second one (aggressiveness) is a nice, but still very useful addition. Please, can it be implemented? Just some info here for everyone. The loudness curve is Fletcher Munson Curve set to 0db reference. What you are asking for is an offset for 0db so that you can set the curve to have no affect at a different reference level. We can do this but I suspect the end result will still be the same as it is now. In years past, it was pretty much the rule to set recording levels at -20dbfs which allowed enough headroom for all dynamic situations. The way things are recorded today, everyone runs it up on the limiters right at 0dbfs so it sounds good on headphone and on your phone. The vast majority of recordings today have no dynamic headroom and are all squashed, so I really don't think an offset would fix the problem. Having said that though, we will look into it. Lonnie
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jun 19, 2018 8:54:45 GMT -5
Just some info here for everyone. The loudness curve is Fletcher Munson Curve set to 0db reference. What you are asking for is an offset for 0db so that you can set the curve to have no affect at a different reference level. We can do this but I suspect the end result will still be the same as it is now. In years past, it was pretty much the rule to set recording levels at -20dbfs which allowed enough headroom for all dynamic situations. The way things are recorded today, everyone runs it up on the limiters right at 0dbfs so it sounds good on headphone and on your phone. The vast majority of recordings today have no dynamic headroom and are all squashed, so I really don't think an offset would fix the problem. Having said that though, we will look into it. Lonnie Thanks for putting it on the list Lonnie, maybe you’ll come up with another way to make the Loudness function more useable and natural. Like others have mentioned, when I turn it on I find it bass heavy and notice little treble boost. Would getting system ‘efficiency’ or ‘sensitivity’ Information from Dirac be possible or helpful? It would seem this would allow you to set the FM curves more appropriately for each system / room. Appreciate you looking into this. Of course as I said earlier, we don’t want you to take your eye off the prizes — the RMC-1, XMC-G3, and Atmos Upgrade. 👍
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Post by TechChallenged on Jun 19, 2018 13:59:10 GMT -5
Wow, Emotiva customer service. Love it! Once again, agree with AudioHTIT, only if you have some downtime from the major works in progress. I realize that there are times you get to a point you need to look at something more simple, take a break, or you're waiting on third party response to continue working on the new processor/upgrades. Thank you Lonnie, for exploring options and taking time to explain why the loudness may not be compatible with many of today's, pushed to the limits, recordings and lack of dynamic headroom.
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zmaxtt
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 9
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Post by zmaxtt on Dec 6, 2018 17:59:46 GMT -5
I agree with all the posters. It would be a great feature but I too find it has to much bass to be enjoyable. Vocals do become recessed and it seems the lower the volume the worse it is.
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Post by highfihoney2 on Dec 6, 2018 21:22:21 GMT -5
I only buy preamps with dedicated Bass & Treble Pots and really wish loudness contour pots would come back into fashion ,I have an old McIntosh C-38 preamp I don't use but keep because of it having a true loudness pot ,I'm not a fan of digital settings or stepped attenuation loudness settings ,loudness countour has been misused in 2 channel audio for so long high end manufacturers have stopped including the function ,loudness in 2 channel is only supposed to be used at low listening levels to give the quietly played music some depth & impact without raising SPL levels more than 1db ,I keep Emotivas original 2 channel RSP-1Preamp stashed away due to it's Bass & Treble pots that implement better than McIntosh stepped attenuation I hate , all pre/pros should have a true loudness contour feature as well as bass & treble pots ,when not needed they can be placed in neutral for nothing added in the signal chain ,but when you need loudness & don't have it ,well that sucks ,I too think Emo should implement quality tone control : loudness features .
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Post by highfihoney2 on Dec 6, 2018 21:50:22 GMT -5
Surprised this thread died... I find the loudness button is too "aggressive". I would love to see something tunable. I too don't like a fixed or stepped loudness feature ,the standard loudness contour potentimeter used for decades is my favorite feature for late night listening .
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Post by Gary Cook on Dec 6, 2018 23:05:43 GMT -5
Potentiometers are electronically noisy pierces of 19th century crap that physically wear out over time and get even worse Good riddance to them. Cheers Gary
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