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Post by igorzep on Jun 5, 2015 16:48:13 GMT -5
So, not counting potential errors, measuring the actual acoustic delay is by far the more accurate method for getting the correct setting there. (And using a ruler to physically measure the distance isn't especially accurate at all. The key word here is not counting for potential errors. If you start counting - then ruler becomes a lot more reliable instrument. And neither DLCT nor XMC-1 even display what was measured, so we cannot even verify if they are somewhat remotely accurate or got completely meaningless reading because potential for error has suddenly realized... If it is believed so accurate then why not just show what is measured...? This would save me a lot of time when I incidentally forgot to choose correct microphone in the beginning of the process and I only realized that something went wrong when filters were uploaded to XMC-1 and I thought WTF how can it sound so awfully. ) |
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Post by monkumonku on Jun 5, 2015 17:10:32 GMT -5
So, not counting potential errors, measuring the actual acoustic delay is by far the more accurate method for getting the correct setting there. (And using a ruler to physically measure the distance isn't especially accurate at all. The key word here is not counting for potential errors. If you start counting - then ruler becomes a lot more reliable instrument. And neither DLCT nor XMC-1 even display what was measured, so we cannot even verify if they are somewhat remotely accurate or got completely meaningless reading because potential for error has suddenly realized... If it is believed so accurate then why not just show what is measured...? This would save me a lot of time when I incidentally forgot to choose correct microphone in the beginning of the process and I only realized that something went wrong when filters were uploaded to XMC-1 and I thought WTF how can it sound so awfully. ) What does your forgetting to choose the right mic have to do with anything? That's your error not anyone else's and if that caused your "WTF how can it sound so awfully" moment, that's just a mistake on your part not some major defect in the product. Why not just let your eyes and ears tell you if it sounds good or not? I don't seem to have any sync errors with my XMC-1 and neither do the vast majority of folks here. I think the time and expense of Emotiva trying to address this problem you mentioned that is of no practical significance to 99.999% of the users is a lot more than the time you might save by them fixing it and your using the wrong mic. |
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Post by geebo on Jun 5, 2015 17:15:05 GMT -5
The key word here is not counting for potential errors. If you start counting - then ruler becomes a lot more reliable instrument. And neither DLCT nor XMC-1 even display what was measured, so we cannot even verify if they are somewhat remotely accurate or got completely meaningless reading because potential for error has suddenly realized... If it is believed so accurate then why not just show what is measured...? This would save me a lot of time when I incidentally forgot to choose correct microphone in the beginning of the process and I only realized that something went wrong when filters were uploaded to XMC-1 and I thought WTF how can it sound so awfully. ) What does your forgetting to choose the right mic have to do with anything? That's your error not anyone else's and if that caused your "WTF how can it sound so awfully" moment, that's just a mistake on your part not some major defect in the product. Why not just let your eyes and ears tell you if it sounds good or not? I don't seem to have any sync errors with my XMC-1 and neither do the vast majority of folks here. I've not experienced any sync errors with the XMC with or without Dirac, either. |
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Post by tubby on Jun 5, 2015 17:37:51 GMT -5
For #1. Where is this setting in a entry level avr as you suggest. I have never seen it. It is called 'Distance' and you can find it in Speaker settings. I've opened a manual of the first entry level AVR model I remember - Onkyo TX-SR313 and it is described on the page 41. Right but that is just a relative delay setting like Dirac/presets do. Where is the absolute setting you speak of? All avs just take the longest speaker distance and delay every thing else to match that speaker. If you wanted to match the audio to the video based on listening distance you need to speed up the audio or delay the video. I am not aware of and avr that has a video delay setting. |
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Post by millst on Jun 5, 2015 17:51:16 GMT -5
Actually too not as accurate as I hoped... I'm curious. How are you measuring this and comparing it? -tm |
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Post by igorzep on Jun 5, 2015 18:11:00 GMT -5
What does your forgetting to choose the right mic have to do with anything? That's your error not anyone else's and if that caused your "WTF how can it sound so awfully" moment, that's just a mistake on your part not some major defect in the product. Ahh... I should have predicted fanboys have no sense of humor and will use that particular side note for a personal attack. That part that I've told does not invalidate my concerns about the accuracy of the Dirac measuring absolute delays (if it is doing it at all). Actually we will newer know how inaccurate it is until the measured value is actually presented to the user... I have seen so many cases when users are happy with poor quality and so obviously poorly misaligned setup and still convincing everyone that it is the best ever possible... But sorry, I am not from such people, sweet talks and audiophile fashion as well as speculation on feelings doesn't buy me. Why not just let your eyes and ears tell you if it sounds good or not? My eyes and ears tell me that it is far too over-prized and after a year in the field still have too many issues (and not only those from this thread) ... I think the time and expense of Emotiva trying to address this problem you mentioned that is of no practical significance to 99.999% of the users is a lot more than the time you might save by them fixing it and your using the wrong mic. If 99.999% of the users do not care about quality of the product after spending few thousand $$$... then yes - I don't see fixing it worth it for them... This is why we have so much crap on the market today. Good company is trying to help customers and improve a product, not to find excuses why not to do it. |
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Post by igorzep on Jun 5, 2015 18:12:59 GMT -5
Actually too not as accurate as I hoped... I'm curious. How are you measuring this and comparing it? Easy. Send a mono chirp to two channels and measure at the MLP. Look at the impulse response. The difference in timing is clearly visible as two distinct impulses. |
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Post by igorzep on Jun 5, 2015 18:20:45 GMT -5
Right but that is just a relative delay setting like Dirac/presets do. Where is the absolute setting you speak of? All avs just take the longest speaker distance and delay every thing else to match that speaker. What made you think so? The settings are clearly absolute. And I knew people with Yamaha AVRs who increased distances to the maximum setting (just to minimize the audio delay). So for sure it works well at least on those receivers. |
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Post by millst on Jun 5, 2015 18:23:27 GMT -5
Easy. Send a mono chirp to two channels and measure at the MLP. Look at the impulse response. The difference in timing is clearly visible as two impulses. Using REW with the non-mic channel looped? That showed the 15cm discrepancy? How do you get the mic in the same spot after performing the Dirac run? -tm |
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Post by igorzep on Jun 5, 2015 18:51:44 GMT -5
Using REW with the non-mic channel looped? As both speakers are transmitting sound at the same time there is no need for reference loop. That showed the 15cm discrepancy? How do you get the mic in the same spot after performing the Dirac run? Exactly. The mic is precisely above the line coming through the center of the seat. So, it is easy to place the mic again exactly to the same place after calibration. And 15cm difference is very well visible with an eye after new 'sweet spot' is found by aligning impulses together... |
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Post by millst on Jun 5, 2015 18:58:18 GMT -5
Ah, okay. I get what you are doing now. Thanks. Wonder what the discrepancy is.
-tm
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Post by tubby on Jun 5, 2015 19:23:48 GMT -5
Right but that is just a relative delay setting like Dirac/presets do. Where is the absolute setting you speak of? All avs just take the longest speaker distance and delay every thing else to match that speaker. What made you think so? The settings are clearly absolute. And I knew people with Yamaha AVRs who increased distances to the maximum setting (just to minimize the audio delay). So for sure it works well at least on those receivers. That makes no sense. It does not work that way. If your friends Yamaha acted that way it is the unit with the issue. Standard practice is that the greatest distance is no delay and everything else is delayed to match that. That way no extra delay is added to the audio other than listening distance. And it is much easier to set up than what your friend had to do. You said it yourself dirac cannot measure the actual distances because of the signal chain so it would only make sense to take the signal that takes the longest to be received and match everything to that. Why would it delay that signal as well for no good reason? |
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Post by monkumonku on Jun 5, 2015 19:59:27 GMT -5
What does your forgetting to choose the right mic have to do with anything? That's your error not anyone else's and if that caused your "WTF how can it sound so awfully" moment, that's just a mistake on your part not some major defect in the product. Ahh... I should have predicted fanboys have no sense of humor and will use that particular side note for a personal attack. That part that I've told does not invalidate my concerns about the accuracy of the Dirac measuring absolute delays (if it is doing it at all). Actually we will newer know how inaccurate it is until the measured value is actually presented to the user... I have seen so many cases when users are happy with poor quality and so obviously poorly misaligned setup and still convincing everyone that it is the best ever possible... But sorry, I am not from such people, sweet talks and audiophile fashion as well as speculation on feelings doesn't buy me. Why not just let your eyes and ears tell you if it sounds good or not? My eyes and ears tell me that it is far too over-prized and after a year in the field still have too many issues (and not only those from this thread) ... I think the time and expense of Emotiva trying to address this problem you mentioned that is of no practical significance to 99.999% of the users is a lot more than the time you might save by them fixing it and your using the wrong mic. If 99.999% of the users do not care about quality of the product after spending few thousand $$$... then yes - I don't see fixing it worth it for them... This is why we have so much crap on the market today. Good company is trying to help customers and improve a product, not to find excuses why not to do it. Well I guess we just have to agree to disagree. My opinion - your quest is an exercise whose success, if ever realized, would be an academic exercise with no practical utility to 99.9999% of the users. It has nothing to do with quality, it has to do with making cost-effective production decisions. If you want the XMC-1 to be some $10,000 product then maybe Emo could implement the stuff you're rambling on about. |
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Post by igorzep on Jun 5, 2015 20:03:42 GMT -5
Why would it delay that signal as well for no good reason? The good reason is not to be ahead of the Video displayed. |
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Post by geebo on Jun 5, 2015 20:20:00 GMT -5
Why would it delay that signal as well for no good reason? The good reason is not to be ahead of the Video displayed. It sure looks spot on to both me and my wife. Are you having problems in that area? |
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Post by Mike Ronesia on Jun 5, 2015 20:31:38 GMT -5
I'm curious. How are you measuring this and comparing it? Easy. Send a mono chirp to two channels and measure at the MLP. Look at the impulse response. The difference in timing is clearly visible as two distinct impulses. What makes you think Dirac is not doing this? I'd guess that if a network is working properly the packet timing from when the signal is sent to the XMC-1 is going to be the same each time for all speakers. The mic picks up the sound at the MLP (or wherever it is) and calculates the differences between responses from all the speakers and does the maths. If it is not working properly I'd be willing to bet it is a problem with the network having varying speeds, but that is very rare with these small packets. If you are having problems, I'd suggest fixing your network. With a properly working network Dirac should make very accurate measurements. Dirac is there to do all this for us. You don't add yeast to boxed cake mix, it's all in there. Cheers Mark |
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Post by tubby on Jun 5, 2015 21:13:37 GMT -5
Why would it delay that signal as well for no good reason? The good reason is not to be ahead of the Video displayed. And that is what lipsync takes care of. Dirac can't know how long the video processing will take how would it match it up? |
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Post by igorzep on Jun 6, 2015 5:44:17 GMT -5
What makes you think Dirac is not doing this? Explained multiple times already. I'd guess that if a network is working properly the packet timing from when the signal is sent to the XMC-1 is going to be the same each time for all speakers. Your guess is wrong. If it is not working properly I'd be willing to bet it is a problem with the network having varying speeds, but that is very rare with these small packets. If you are having problems, I'd suggest fixing your network. With a properly working network Dirac should make very accurate measurements. This is not a problem with network. Network does not guarantee any specific speed/latency. This does not make it function improperly. This is a NORMAL and EXPECTED operation and DOES NOT need fixing. This is just how things work since the invention of TCP/IP. With WiFi this is even less reliable on timing since there is not only your network but there are many networks around that share the same radio band (I have about 20, and those are only those that were submitting their identities). |
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Post by igorzep on Jun 6, 2015 5:48:36 GMT -5
And that is what lipsync takes care of. Dirac can't know how long the video processing will take how would it match it up? How do you think it is possible to sync two streams when you know only how much one of them is delayed but not the other? Dirac can't know how Video is delayed. But this is what XMC-1 through HDMI handshake knows. |
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Post by tubby on Jun 6, 2015 6:17:13 GMT -5
And that is what lipsync takes care of. Dirac can't know how long the video processing will take how would it match it up? How do you think it is possible to sync two streams when you know only how much one of them is delayed but not the other? Dirac can't know how Video is delayed. But this is what XMC-1 through HDMI handshake knows. Again...there is no delay to the audio stream. Only video is delayed. The xmc knows what it is from the hdmi handshake and auto corrects for it. If it does not work right in your can manually adjust. |
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