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Post by thrillcat on Jun 8, 2015 22:45:34 GMT -5
I had a pair of B&W speakers and the "matching" center and they weren't very close at all, but these were the low range of their product line (the $650/ea range). These three are now killing it across the front! Attachments:
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Post by teaman on Jun 8, 2015 22:58:11 GMT -5
I had a pair of B&W speakers and the "matching" center and they weren't very close at all, but these were the low range of their product line (the $650/ea range). These three are now killing it across the front! Funny how ED was one of those companies that people either loved or hated. |
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Post by thrillcat on Jun 8, 2015 23:15:16 GMT -5
I had a pair of B&W speakers and the "matching" center and they weren't very close at all, but these were the low range of their product line (the $650/ea range). These three are now killing it across the front! Funny how ED was one of those companies that people either loved or hated. Terrible company with great products. They left a lot of people hanging. These are actually just their cabinets with custom crossovers and upgraded drivers. I also bought a half dozen of their matching slant surround enclosures but my current room is too small, I'm using dipole surrounds because they're very close to the listening position. |
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Post by thrillcat on Jun 9, 2015 6:01:22 GMT -5
Funny how ED was one of those companies that people either loved or hated. Also, remind you of any other companies that start with "E"?  |
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cgolf
Emo VIPs 
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Post by cgolf on Jun 9, 2015 8:28:13 GMT -5
I've had many center speakers over the years, as have most of us. Some were matched same same with the LR, some were the same manufacturer but not the same speaker, some were different manufacturers. Every combo, every placement, on and on and on. To me it's kinda like cables and other audio mysteries.  In 99.9% of the setups, there was no, or at least no noticeable difference picked up by my ears or anyone else's ears. Once, I had a totally different center speaker than the LR and yes, you could tell the difference. But I still to this day wonder if it was more a level set than audio or tonal difference. Sad to say, those speakers are all gone so I will never know the answer to that question!! |
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Post by thrillcat on Jun 9, 2015 9:00:13 GMT -5
About 20 years ago I bought my first "real" pair of speakers (i.e. not from Best Buy). I got a pair of NHT 2.5s. They sounded fantastic. I was living in the bay area at the time, and noticed they were in the east bay (pre-Recoton era). I called them up one day to ask what the best match they had to use for a center would be. Well, they didn't have anything specifically designed for the job, but they offered to set up a room at their offices for me to audition options. I made the drive over and they had already prepped a room with a pair of 2.5s, an AVR and had several centers ready to audition.
Keep in mind, this was not a showroom, it was just their offices. This was the absolute greatest customer service I had experienced at the time, perhaps since.
I settled on an AC-1, it was a pretty close match. Since they didn't sell direct to customers, they basically followed me back into SF and dropped one off at Laser City (miss that place) and I bought it from them.
I used that speaker up through last year. It was a great center channel. Sounded like there were people talking in my room, not from a speaker.
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Post by knucklehead on Jun 9, 2015 11:34:56 GMT -5
My current front 3 are not from the same manufacturer but all three share the same tweeter. Timbre match is about as close as it was with the ERT's and ERM-6.3 center. Meaning while it could be closer it works very well. I can't hear the shift in timbre as a voice or sound pans across the front. This is the actual R/H speaker I own - image compliments of the previous owner:  And the center speaker - custom made by Selah Audio - image compliments of Selah:  The center speaker is as good as any center channel I've owned to date. IMO better than the 6.3 by a good margin. The woofers are 7" and the mid is a 4" - all made by Seas. The center begins rolling off at 87hz - the Marantz sees it still outputting at 60hz and is where Audyssey set it to. Audyssey set the song towers at full range. Audyssey never set the ERT's that low - 60hz IIRC was as low as it would set them. The song towers are a true full range speaker - and no sub needed. |
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Post by audiosyndrome on Jun 9, 2015 14:07:35 GMT -5
The problem I found with using a phantom centre is the inability to raise/lower the volume of the centre when required. Which happens quite often in movies. I have centre speaker specifically engineered by Edward (adelaidespeakers.com.au) to match the FL and FR that he also supplied. I gave him the specifics of the speaker location and the room and, as to be expected, it's a perfect match. Cheers Gary Exactly right Gary. One has no control whatsoever with a phantom center channel when listening to 5.1 soundtracks. Russ |
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Post by audiosyndrome on Jun 9, 2015 14:21:26 GMT -5
About 20 years ago I bought my first "real" pair of speakers (i.e. not from Best Buy). I got a pair of NHT 2.5s. They sounded fantastic. I was living in the bay area at the time, and noticed they were in the east bay (pre-Recoton era). I called them up one day to ask what the best match they had to use for a center would be. Well, they didn't have anything specifically designed for the job, but they offered to set up a room at their offices for me to audition options. I made the drive over and they had already prepped a room with a pair of 2.5s, an AVR and had several centers ready to audition. Keep in mind, this was not a showroom, it was just their offices. This was the absolute greatest customer service I had experienced at the time, perhaps since. I settled on an AC-1, it was a pretty close match. Since they didn't sell direct to customers, they basically followed me back into SF and dropped one off at Laser City (miss that place) and I bought it from them. I used that speaker up through last year. It was a great center channel. Sounded like there were people talking in my room, not from a speaker. Later on NHT came out with the AudioCenter 2 as a match for the 2.9 and 3.3 full range towers. The 2 used the same tweeter and upper midrange driver as in the towers, positioned vertically, flanked by the two of the lower midrange driver used in the towers. Very good horizontal dispersion and excellent tonal matching. Russ |
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Post by yves on Jun 9, 2015 18:54:52 GMT -5
As far as phantom center goes I think it may okay for up to 3 people if your left/right speakers are far enough away from the seating and far enough apart from each other. The closer together everything is, the more likely the dialog will seem to come from the speaker you're closest to and not from the center between them. Here's what my speaker placement looks like:  |
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Post by vneal on Jun 9, 2015 19:13:28 GMT -5
No myth. The easiest way to get a center channel to match tonally with your front main speakers is to either use the same speaker or a center channel designed by the same manufacturer. This is not to say that brands cannot mix and match but it is harder and more involved to get a match from different brands, the same goes for surround speakers
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Post by boomzilla on Jun 9, 2015 19:43:02 GMT -5
I half agree with you, vneal. The "use the same speaker" is the gold standard for matching, but the "center channel designed by the same manufacturer" has, in my experience, no better than random chance of a match. I'd say it might be worth auditioning, but I wouldn't expect too much... In half or more of the situations where I got a good match, it was with a center from a different manufacturer. The manufacturers would dearly like to perpetrate the myth that "only a speaker from the same company" will match your mains, but it just isn't so. Want to test it out? Go to any audio store, pick a pair of main speakers, and with your eyes closed - listen to at least three centers from different manufacturers using PINK NOISE. I'll bet you find the "best match" to be another brand two out of three times. Listening to audio will mask differences that are immediately obvious with pink noise. Even your "best match" won't be too close, either. But I digress... Anybody who tells you that you need a center channel from the same manufacturer to get a good blend either wants to sell you something or hasn't listened to a wide variety of center speakers. Cheers - Boom |
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Post by justhavingfun on Jul 15, 2015 12:21:18 GMT -5
I completely agree with you on this center speaker matching. For number of years, I struggle to find the better center speakers to match my R/L mains. My previous HT speaker setup used to be from Sound Dynamics speaker lines (they no longer exist). I believe it's the same Canadian company who makes the Energy lines. I have tried their own center speaker line but it didn't really matched well. And all the recommendations that I read suggested same manufacture method is the best way to go but my ears told me different stories. The final center speaker that I ended up liking was the Def Tech CLR 2500 powered center speaker with best matched with my main R/L which I was happy with for number of years until I switched my main to Martin Logan SL3 recently and my trusted center Def Tech CLR 2500 is no longer matched very well, may be because Martin Logan's electrostatic speaker characteristic. So I searched my replacement center again, this time though only another Martin Logan electrostatic center speaker matched best and I ended up purchasing Martin Logan Theater i center speaker.
So when you are searching for your center speaker in your home theater, same manufacturer is the good initial starting point but don't forget to experiment with other manufacturer lines if you are not happy with their lines. I liked my Def Tech CLR 2500 so much, at one time, I wanted to switch all my other speakers to Def Tech. But although I loved how they sounded with home theater materials, I didn't care too much for two channel music sources.
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Post by boomzilla on Jul 15, 2015 17:07:55 GMT -5
DefTech is underrated for many products. Their subs are small but have BIG output, their passive and half-active stereo speakers are good for the price. The reason DefTech gets so much "audiophile hate," IMHO is because they fudge their specs beyond the point of credulity. Every manufacturer lies, but DefTech BLATANTLY lies. Despite that, I've owned, liked, and continue to like many of their products. Yes, I can see how with some "special" speakers (planar MLs, Quads, Maggies, etc.) you'd probably want to go to the manufacturer's line first. I can also see how with horn-loaded speakers, for example, that a horn-loaded center would likely be a better match. For standard "cones in boxes" speakers, though, you get lots (LOTS) more flexibility in finding a good match. I'm so glad, justhavingfun that you got a satisfactory set! Enjoy. Boomzilla |
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Post by justhavingfun on Jul 15, 2015 21:40:31 GMT -5
Yes, Def Tech definitely overrate their specs on their many speaker product lines thus I never pay much attention to the specs anymore. It feels good to read so impressive specs perhaps but after initial "love at first sight" sort of feeling, your ears and experiences take over. Placebo effect can be very powerful. I believe this ML front stage in my home theater will be with me for a very long time. After all, my last home theater speakers lasted more than ten years.
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Post by boomzilla on Jul 16, 2015 5:57:46 GMT -5
And just for informational purposes...
Do you want a center channel that REALLY matches your R/L front speakers?
Consider using an inexpensive 1970's "graphic equalizer." The cost is minimal, the reduction in sound quality is more than made up for in having a perfect tonal match to the main speakers, and setup is easy!
Why's the setup easy? You already have a "pink noise generator" built into your blu-ray player or AV source receiver/preamp. Turn on the pink, and switch between the center & either of the mains. Use the graphic EQ on the center until you get a tonal match - should take <5 minutes. Now you have a center that WILL match tonally with your main speakers! The tonal match is what you're looking for anyway (and so seldom find unless all three front speakers are the same make AND model). For a really, really inexpensive price, you get what you probably couldn't otherwise.
The "pro" graphic equalizers are also fine for this purpose.
Cheers - Boomzilla
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Post by garym on Jul 16, 2015 7:45:41 GMT -5
As I see it, unless you're listening to 5.1 (or 7.1 or 7.2) music sources, as opposed to movie sound tracks, whether the center speaker matches the others is a complete non-issue, simply because the center channel is carrying different information than the other channels, just as the surrounds are carrying different information. If you *are* listening to multi-track audio blu-rays, then all the speakers in the system (except the subs) should be identical. For movies, the only "matching" necessary is level matching.
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Post by boomzilla on Jul 16, 2015 12:11:01 GMT -5
You're probably right, garym - I don't notice matching at all on movies, but I sure do on SACD music listening. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 12:28:24 GMT -5
As I see it, unless you're listening to 5.1 (or 7.1 or 7.2) music sources, as opposed to movie sound tracks, whether the center speaker matches the others is a complete non-issue, simply because the center channel is carrying different information than the other channels, just as the surrounds are carrying different information. If you *are* listening to multi-track audio blu-rays, then all the speakers in the system (except the subs) should be identical. For movies, the only "matching" necessary is level matching. Watch any movie that has a specific sound (dialog is the biggest one) that pans from left to right and you will notice it. If you don't then your not an audiophile |
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Post by boomzilla on Jul 16, 2015 12:51:50 GMT -5
OK - Let me say that differently - Although a mismatched center may be noticeable to me on movies, I don't find it a distraction there. In SACD listening, I always find a mismatched center irritating.
That said, I find that I can use a VIOLENTLY mismatched center if I equalize it with a 10-band graphic equalizer. In fact, using the equalizer has provided the best match I've ever heard - better than using the manufacturer's recommended center, better than experimenting to find a match, better (and easier) than anything else. I fail to understand why room calibration for surround systems don't include parametric equalization for "voicing" the center channel to the mains. Seems like it would be inexpensive since the DSP is already in place.
Boom
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In 99.9% of the setups, there was no, or at least no noticeable difference picked up by my ears or anyone else's ears. Once, I had a totally different center speaker than the LR and yes, you could tell the difference. But I still to this day wonder if it was more a level set than audio or tonal difference.
