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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 12:54:09 GMT -5
Because it's not correct.
So with your argument you should be able to have a left and right speaker that do not match. As long as you eq then your golden
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Post by monkumonku on Jul 16, 2015 13:00:43 GMT -5
OK - Let me say that differently - Although a mismatched center may be noticeable to me on movies, I don't find it a distraction there. In SACD listening, I always find a mismatched center irritating. That said, I find that I can use a VIOLENTLY mismatched center if I equalize it with a 10-band graphic equalizer. In fact, using the equalizer has provided the best match I've ever heard - better than using the manufacturer's recommended center, better than experimenting to find a match, better (and easier) than anything else. I fail to understand why room calibration for surround systems don't include parametric equalization for "voicing" the center channel to the mains. Seems like it would be inexpensive since the DSP is already in place. Boom By that same line of reasoning, then why couldn't you "match" expensive speakers by buying inexpensive ones and using an equalizer to make them sound like the more expensive ones? Why would you need to spend the money on Magnepans or Wilsons or Salks, etc? It would be sort of like that old joke about asking different people what 2+2 was and the accountant's answer was "what do you want it to be?" You could ask what do these speakers sound like, and the answer would be, "what do you want them to sound like?"  |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 16, 2015 13:06:52 GMT -5
The reason you can't "match" stereo speakers is that the equalizer adds its own coloration. The EQ would ruin the quality that you paid so much for in your speakers.
So why is an equalizer OK for a center but not for mains? My reasons are:
When watching movies, the negative effects of the equalizer are far outpaced by the benefits. Having a tonal-match in a center speaker is worth the (relatively small) loss of overall quality.
When listening to SACDs, the "gee-whiz" effects are more important, again, than the small loss of sound quality.
But when listening to two channel audio, the (small) loss of sound quality from the "inferior" equalizer electronics are more audible compared to the unprocessed sound that I've come to prefer.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 13:15:00 GMT -5
I 100% do not agree with you. You can't have it one way with 2 channel but not the same way with multichannel (movie or music)
Coloration of either isn't ok. If you're an audiophile it's anything that comes out of your speakers. Movie mixing is as much an art form as is 2 channel Music
its a very hypocritical stance
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Post by jmilton on Jul 16, 2015 14:02:57 GMT -5
The R/L speakers need to match, but the C/RS/LS can be different with little loss of timbre matching. I mix speakers on a pretty regular basis for reviews and I seldom notice issues. Currently I am running the Legacy Silhouettes with my Revel Concerta C/RS/LS and the whole thing sounds great...even panning across the front sound stage. A person should be able to get whatever center channel that sounds good to them and not be restricted to the same mfg. My comments reflect listening to many SACD/DVD-A music as well as movies. Sometimes you can't match all 3 speakers. Dr. Johnson has a Paradigm center with his Carver Amazing loudspeakers. He's happy. That's all that counts.
That said, I personally prefer that all 3 speakers in the front be similar or from the same mfg., but I would not break fellowship with a mixer-upper.
It might be an interesting POLL to see how many in the forum have mix & match systems.
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Post by garbulky on Jul 16, 2015 14:13:59 GMT -5
One thing I have noticed is that the size of the center speaker makes a difference. You can tell when the center speaker is of a smaller size than the stereo units. Also a center is almost always - unless you are talking about transparent screens etc - in a weird position relative to the left and right. Hard compromises.
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Post by vneal on Jul 16, 2015 16:43:44 GMT -5
Bull. Optimum is for all speakers to be the same in a HT. Since that is not always feasible most major manufacturers have surrounds and center speaker that matches the tone of the fronts. I am not saying you cannot get a good sound from different manufacturers in a system just that it is easier to with the same brand
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Post by garym on Jul 17, 2015 9:38:16 GMT -5
Watch any movie that has a specific sound (dialog is the biggest one) that pans from left to right and you will notice it. If you don't then your not an audiophile  You expect changes in timber and level of a sound as it moves across a soundfield. It's called Doppler Effect, and its perfectly natural. Unless that center speaker has a serious problem, the differences in speaker voicing will be swallowed by the Doppler Effect. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jul 17, 2015 10:08:12 GMT -5
Yes and... errr... no. The Doppler shift is a phenomenon caused by the fact that sound source is moving closer or further away relative to the observer. When compared to what it sounds like sitting still, a sound source seems to move up in pitch when it's moving towards you, and seems to move down in pitch when it's moving away from you. (The shift in pitch is "real" - you can measure it, and even use the amount of shift to determine speed quite accurately). This is supposed to happen in a very specific way, and, if your system doesn't portray it accurately, then it won't "sound right". Doppler shift only occurs when a sound source is moving relatively quickly, and it only occurs when the source is moving closer to you or further away from you. (If you're standing at the train station, the shift occurs when the train passes in front of you because it is moving from far away on the left, to close in front, to far away on the right - if the train were circling you at a fixed distance there would be no Doppler shift. However, when people talk about matching speakers, they're talking about something much different. Different speakers act differently, both in terms of frequency response, and in terms of how the sound actually exits the speaker and interacts with the room (a speaker with wide vertical dispersion will bounce a lot of sound off the ceiling and floor; one with narrow vertical dispersion will not). Our brains do a pretty good job of allowing us to get used to the way your room and your speakers interact - and to ignore or "null out" those factors when hearing a song or video sound track. (You don't notice that the car chase scene you're watching actually sounds a little bit like the cars are in a living room, just like you don't notice that the color of your ceiling lights affects the color of your "silver" TV cabinet... your mind compensates for it). However, if your center speaker is very different from your main left and right speakers, and you listen to a person speaking, while pacing slowly back and forth from left to right, they will basically sound like they're in one room when they're standing at the left or right side, and like they're in a slightly different room when they're standing in the center. They may also sound like they're closer to you (or further away) when they're in the center - even if they look like they're staying at the same distance. This happens frequently if you try to combine speakers that use entirely different technologies - like main speakers with domes and a center with a ribbon tweeter. Whether you find this annoying, or barely notice it, will depend on the speakers, your room, what you're listening to, and your personal listening priorities (it simply bothers some people a lot more than others). It also may or may not be something you can correct with EQ; that depends on the specific differences involved. Watch any movie that has a specific sound (dialog is the biggest one) that pans from left to right and you will notice it. If you don't then your not an audiophile You expect changes in timber and level of a sound as it moves across a soundfield. It's called Doppler Effect, and its perfectly natural. |
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Post by garym on Jul 17, 2015 10:48:45 GMT -5
However, when people talk about matching speakers, they're talking about something much different. I know they are. But Doppler effects and perspective effects (the same sound will be perceived differently from different distances and angles) will usually mask any differences in speaker voicing, unless the speakers are *really* different (and especially if they are not level-matched). You expect that as well --- the angles are different and thus so will be the reflection and absorption of sounds along those different vectors. But I agree that if the speakers are "very different," the transitions may not sound natural. |
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Post by scrappydue on Jul 17, 2015 21:45:06 GMT -5
for any who say they dont notice a difference. well sorry you dont get to have a dedicated room and false wall. for the rest of us that can have that, well we would not do it any other way. period. its the best. i have two theaters in my house. one consisting of a klipsch cinema setup and i rock LCR behind a 138" 2.35 screen. panning is perfect.  and my upstairs uses a traditional center. now is it perfect no. is it the best horizontal center my ears have ever heard? yep.  |
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Post by novisnick on Jul 17, 2015 22:16:58 GMT -5
for any who say they dont notice a difference. well sorry you dont get to have a dedicated room and false wall. for the rest of us that can have that, well we would not do it any other way. period. its the best. i have two theaters in my house. one consisting of a klipsch cinema setup and i rock LCR behind a 138" 2.35 screen. panning is perfect. and my upstairs uses a traditional center. now is it perfect no. is it the best horizontal center my ears have ever heard? yep. Now THIS is droole to the MAX!!!!! |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 18, 2015 12:58:17 GMT -5
I 100% do not agree with you. You can't have it one way with 2 channel but not the same way with multichannel (movie or music) Coloration of either isn't ok. If you're an audiophile it's anything that comes out of your speakers. Movie mixing is as much an art form as is 2 channel Music its a very hypocritical stance Horse hockey! You listen to music in your car - It isn't audiophile sound by any standard - Should we completely forego audio on the car because it doesn't meet the highest standards? When you jog or exercise, you may listen to music on ear buds - ditto. We ALL use different standards ALL THE TIME on the SAME music. I'm not being hypocritical in any way. But just as YOUR standards may be different for car audio vs. home audio, MY standards differ from stereo listening to movie watching. NOTE THE DIFFERENCE IN VERBS! The experiences are different, and my choices about what's important with each (to me) are similarly different. You have the choice to agree or disagree with me, and I respect your opinions even when we disagree. So for my preferences (almost certain to be different from yours): Stereo sound is held to the highest standard - does it sound like real live music? Surround (SACD) sound is more for the "gee whiz" effects than for sound quality, but for these effects to work, the timbre of the system must be well matched. Movie sound doesn't much matter. The surrounds are nice to have but (usually) not worth their clutter. If more than two or three people are watching, the center is necessary to anchor dialogue, but matching doesn't much matter. For background music, a boom box would suffice. For car audio, I can't hear it over the noise and even if I could, I wouldn't play it - It interferes with situational awareness, which is important for safe driving. So are these "hypocritical stances?" I leave you to decide that, but I'm unlikely to be changing my mind. Cordially - Boomzilla |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2015 13:36:56 GMT -5
Very fair points boom. But I just feel the hypocritical part is that if o chose to "tear down" the importance of following he standard for 2 channel critical listening (your preference and importance) you would call me wrong and correct it. I guarantee it. This should be no different THATS how it's hypocritical. You don't pee in my Cheerios. I won't pee in yours |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 25, 2015 10:41:29 GMT -5
Fair enough @bmoney -
For some friends (you included), having a matched set of surrounds IS important. I've heard movies over such systems, and yes - it does add to the movie experience. So forgive me, please, if I denigrated the importance of movie sound. Yes, the audio editors DO labor mightily to achieve the sound that they intend, and only a carefully-crafted surround system can recreate the exact experience intended by the recording engineers.
That said, many (most?) of us don't have the luxury of a fully-matching surround setup. I still contend that one way of coming closer to the intended timbre of the surround system is by using some graphic equalization to make the (less than optimally-matched) group of speakers sound more alike.
In my experience, even the intended speaker "group" from the same manufacturer always (always) has audible timbral differences. One can't eliminate these, but with even a small touch of graphic equalization (using the source's built-in pink noise generator) the differences absolutely CAN be minimized.
If the goal is to have identical sounding speakers at all five, seven, or eleven locations, then I'd think that this would be a good (REALLY good) thing. Graphic equalizers (particularly of the "pro" variety) are not only readily available, but also inexpensive.
I've heard it said repeatedly, that for movie listening, the only speakers that really matter are the center and the subwoofer. Everything else is effects. Even if this statement does overly simplify, there is some truth to it. But even if we discard that allegation, and assume that all the speakers in the surround system are equally important, why wouldn't we want them to have the same timbre?
As delivered by the manufacturer, they don't - period.
As installed in your listening room, they don't - period
So what will make them sound more alike? Room correction ala DIRAC should help (how much, I don't know, since I haven't heard it). But most of us don't have DIRAC-enabled electronics. What then to do?
My answer is simple - equalize. It isn't a perfect solution, but it's better than anything else available for the cost.
Cordially - Boomzilla
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Post by klinemj on Jul 25, 2015 16:20:38 GMT -5
I don't worry about matching the speakers at all. I have Maggie's fronts, a Paradigm center, and Emo surrounds. When I set levels and distances, they sound great together. Add DIRAC and they are even better. I don't even notice they are different brands. And, by the way, man those Emo ERD-1's are great surrounds!
Mark
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Jul 25, 2015 17:47:32 GMT -5
I don't worry about matching the speakers at all. I have Maggie's fronts, a Paradigm center, and Emo surrounds. When I set levels and distances, they sound great together. Add DIRAC and they are even better. I don't even notice they are different brands. And, by the way, man those Emo ERD-1's are great surrounds! Mark I wish Emo would re-release the ERD-1's. They are fantastic! |
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Post by klinemj on Jul 25, 2015 19:49:08 GMT -5
They sure are...they will have to be pried from my cold, dead hands some day way in the future!
Mark
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Post by knucklehead on Jul 25, 2015 20:52:19 GMT -5
They sure are...they will have to be pried from my cold, dead hands some day way in the future! Mark Yes they are! I've had mine for many years now. I've learned to never say never but I doubt I'll ever sell them. They work fine with the song towers and center. I've also learned to quit listening for timbre differences between speakers and brands and just watch the movie! I don't have to back up and see what I missed. |
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Post by gus4emo on Jul 25, 2015 23:06:24 GMT -5
Hi guys, question, has anyone ever tried two speakers for the center channel, I mean at the same time,?
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