|
|
Post by sahmen on Jul 6, 2015 14:46:56 GMT -5
YES, the XMC-1 supports DSD via HDMI (on an Oppo you can play both SACDs and DSD files through your XMC-1 via HDMI). Don't think the XMC-1 supports DSD over HDMI Just to be sure: you mean I can bitstream SACD and DSD files from my Oppo BDP-103 to the XMC-1 over hdmi and it will play hitch-free? Is this the set up that generates the famous "DSD thump" people have been talking about? Is the "thump" averted if I choose the PCM option over the Bitstream option in the Oppo 103? |
|
|
|
Post by geebo on Jul 6, 2015 14:59:03 GMT -5
YES, the XMC-1 supports DSD via HDMI (on an Oppo you can play both SACDs and DSD files through your XMC-1 via HDMI). Just to be sure: you mean I can bitstream SACD and DSD files from my Oppo BDP-103 to the XMC-1 over hdmi and it will play hitch-free? Is this the set up that generates the famous "DSD thump" people have been talking about? Is the "thump" averted if I choose the PCM option over the Bitstream option in the Oppo 103? SACD and DSD will ONLY play over HDMI. SACD/DSD licensing forbids bitstreaming via optical or coax. You can also have the Oppo convert to analog then send that out to the XMC-1 But for bitstreaming, you need HDMI. |
|
|
|
Post by geebo on Jul 6, 2015 18:38:06 GMT -5
YES, the XMC-1 supports DSD via HDMI (on an Oppo you can play both SACDs and DSD files through your XMC-1 via HDMI). Just to be sure: you mean I can bitstream SACD and DSD files from my Oppo BDP-103 to the XMC-1 over hdmi and it will play hitch-free? Is this the set up that generates the famous "DSD thump" people have been talking about? Is the "thump" averted if I choose the PCM option over the Bitstream option in the Oppo 103? Sorry, but I missed the second part of the question. Yes the DSD bitstream is when you can get the DSD thump and if you send PCM instead you don't get it. I personally prefer sending PCM because you can then take advantage of Dirac which you cannot do if bitstreaming DSD. |
|
|
|
Post by sahmen on Jul 6, 2015 23:53:45 GMT -5
Just to be sure: you mean I can bitstream SACD and DSD files from my Oppo BDP-103 to the XMC-1 over hdmi and it will play hitch-free? Is this the set up that generates the famous "DSD thump" people have been talking about? Is the "thump" averted if I choose the PCM option over the Bitstream option in the Oppo 103? Sorry, but I missed the second part of the question. Yes the DSD bitstream is when you can get the DSD thump and if you send PCM instead you don't get it. I personally prefer sending PCM because you can then take advantage of Dirac which you cannot do if bitstreaming DSD. Thanks Geebo: It is actually this Dirac advantage that really interests me. I guess it's PCM over bitstream for me, then. Not having to deal with the famous "dsd thump" is just icing on the cake.  |
|
|
|
Post by geebo on Jul 7, 2015 6:40:06 GMT -5
Sorry, but I missed the second part of the question. Yes the DSD bitstream is when you can get the DSD thump and if you send PCM instead you don't get it. I personally prefer sending PCM because you can then take advantage of Dirac which you cannot do if bitstreaming DSD. Thanks Geebo: It is actually this Dirac advantage that really interests me. I guess it's PCM over bitstream for me, then. Not having to deal with the famous "dsd thump" is just icing on the cake. Yes, thump or no thump, it's PCM for me with the XMC-1. |
|
|
|
Post by drtrey3 on Jul 7, 2015 8:57:48 GMT -5
Of course, to get high res files to your XMC-1 you could always plug in your turntable. 8)
Trey
|
|
|
|
Post by novisnick on Jul 7, 2015 9:19:48 GMT -5
Of course, to get high res files to your XMC-1 you could always plug in your turntable. 8) Trey With the phono pre of your choice might I add! Im using the XPS-1 and am very satisfied.  |
|
|
|
Post by goodfellas27 on Jul 7, 2015 10:16:04 GMT -5
I play 24bit/FLACs on my Win8 Intel NUC with SSD, using Jriver/WAPASI via USB cable to the XMC-1. Best sound possible for the unit. I hot they update the firmware to support native DSD via USB. So far, it's only via HDMI. Best sound possible for the unit? I think using WASAPI give you the best possible sound quality on XMC-1 from a computer. |
|
|
|
Post by qdtjni on Jul 7, 2015 10:24:45 GMT -5
Best sound possible for the unit? I think using WASAPI give you the best possible sound quality on XMC-1 from a computer. When using Windows, that is necessary. Not needed in OS X and Linux. |
|
KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,256
|
Post by KeithL on Jul 7, 2015 11:37:42 GMT -5
By default, both Windows and OSX machines will resample all digital audio you play to a preset sample rate (you can pick whatever sample rate you like; in Control Panel or the Midi Panel, respectively; but, if you don't want your files resampled, you would have to change that setting to match each file you play). WASAPI is actually just a " connection mode" in Windows which bypasses the resampling process - so every file is played at its native sample rate. WASAPI is built into Windows, from Windows 7 on up, but you need to use a player program that supports WASAPI, and then select it as your output option. WIndows Media Player doesn't support WASAPI mode, but most good players do (FooBar2000 requires a free plugin). A similar situation exists with Macs, where the audio will be resampled unless your player supports a bit-perfect mode. By default, iTunes doesn't support this mode, but you can get it to do so by adding the bitperfect plugin. Most decent quality player programs for Apple (Amarra, Audirvana, etc) support bit-perfect playback. In order to send high-res audio to the DAC, the computer and O/S also have to support the correct USB Audio Class. (This is NOT the same as USB 1.0 and USB 2.0). USB Audio Class 1 (UAC1) is supported internally by both Windows and Apple computers, but is limited to 24/96 playback. USB Audio Class 2 is required to support up to (and past) 24/192, and our XDA-2, DC-1, and the DAC input on our XMC-1, use UAC2. All modern Apple computers have UAC2 support built in, so you don't need a driver, but Windows doesn't, which is why you need a driver with Windows. SOME Linux distros have support for UAC2 built in; others don't. And some Linux distros also have other issues with supporting higher sample rates, and with resampling or not resampling digital audio. You really need to confirm the details there for the specific Linux version you plan to use. (Some Linux versions also support UAC2, but only with certain specific USB chipsets..... we use the C-Media CM6631A in the XDA-2, DC1-, and XMC-1. Some others require specific audio settings or are limited to certain sample rates.) I think using WASAPI give you the best possible sound quality on XMC-1 from a computer. When using Windows, that is necessary. Not needed in OS X and Linux. |
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,256
|
Post by KeithL on Jul 7, 2015 11:45:17 GMT -5
You're quite correct about the HDMI restriction on SACDs... it's built into the license/standard. However, the restriction is part of the SACD standard, so DSD FILES from other sources, like downloads, or files you've converted to DSD, aren't subject to it, and you can play them on an Oppo or a computer and send them over other digital connections as a DSD bitstream. (Some DACs also accept a DSD bitstream via USB using a new type of encapsulation called DOP - DSD over PCM.) However, the XMC-1 only accepts DSD via HDMI. Just to be sure: you mean I can bitstream SACD and DSD files from my Oppo BDP-103 to the XMC-1 over hdmi and it will play hitch-free? Is this the set up that generates the famous "DSD thump" people have been talking about? Is the "thump" averted if I choose the PCM option over the Bitstream option in the Oppo 103? SACD and DSD will ONLY play over HDMI. SACD/DSD licensing forbids bitstreaming via optical or coax. You can also have the Oppo convert to analog then send that out to the XMC-1 But for bitstreaming, you need HDMI. |
|
|
|
Post by geebo on Jul 7, 2015 11:51:04 GMT -5
You're quite correct about the HDMI restriction on SACDs... it's built into the license/standard. However, the restriction is part of the SACD standard, so DSD FILES from other sources, like downloads, or files you've converted to DSD, aren't subject to it, and you can play them on an Oppo or a computer and send them over other digital connections as a DSD bitstream. (Some DACs also accept a DSD bitstream via USB using a new type of encapsulation called DOP - DSD over PCM.) However, the XMC-1 only accepts DSD via HDMI. SACD and DSD will ONLY play over HDMI. SACD/DSD licensing forbids bitstreaming via optical or coax. You can also have the Oppo convert to analog then send that out to the XMC-1 But for bitstreaming, you need HDMI. Thanks for the clarification. So no DSD license restrictions disallowing bitstreaming over coax or optical. What about bandwidth limitations for multichannel DSD and those connections? And with the XMC at least, it's really a moot point, right? |
|
|
|
Post by qdtjni on Jul 7, 2015 12:01:01 GMT -5
By default, both Windows and OSX machines will resample all digital audio you play to a preset sample rate (you can pick whatever sample rate you like; in Control Panel or the Midi Panel, respectively; but, if you don't want your files resampled, you would have to change that setting to match each file you play). WASAPI is actually just a " connection mode" in Windows which bypasses the resampling process - so every file is played at its native sample rate. WASAPI is built into Windows, from Windows 7 on up, but you need to use a player program that supports WASAPI, and then select it as your output option. WIndows Media Player doesn't support WASAPI mode, but most good players do (FooBar2000 requires a free plugin). A similar situation exists with Macs, where the audio will be resampled unless your player supports a bit-perfect mode. By default, iTunes doesn't support this mode, but you can get it to do so by adding the bitperfect plugin. Most decent quality player programs for Apple (Amarra, Audirvana, etc) support bit-perfect playback. In order to send high-res audio to the DAC, the computer and O/S also have to support the correct USB Audio Class. (This is NOT the same as USB 1.0 and USB 2.0). USB Audio Class 1 (UAC1) is supported internally by both Windows and Apple computers, but is limited to 24/96 playback. USB Audio Class 2 is required to support up to (and past) 24/192, and our XDA-2, DC-1, and the DAC input on our XMC-1, use UAC2. All modern Apple computers have UAC2 support built in, so you don't need a driver, but Windows doesn't, which is why you need a driver with Windows. SOME Linux distros have support for UAC2 built in; others don't. And some Linux distros also have other issues with supporting higher sample rates, and with resampling or not resampling digital audio. You really need to confirm the details there for the specific Linux version you plan to use. (Some Linux versions also support UAC2, but only with certain specific USB chipsets..... we use the C-Media CM6631A in the XDA-2, DC1-, and XMC-1. Some others require specific audio settings or are limited to certain sample rates.) When using Windows, that is necessary. Not needed in OS X and Linux. While it true that not all Linux distros support UAC2, the ones that do and there are problems with sampling rates, resampling, etc, it is often down to configuration in OS or player software rather than the OS not supporting it. OS X is easier as long as you use a decent player. FWIW Ubuntu 14 both works fine with the XMC-1 without any need for special config, not only for USB but also for HDMI. |
|
|
|
Post by qdtjni on Jul 7, 2015 12:04:38 GMT -5
However, the XMC-1 only accepts DSD via HDMI. Is that due to lack of support in HW or FW at the moment? I.e. does CM6631A support DoP and/or native DSD? |
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,256
|
Post by KeithL on Jul 7, 2015 13:26:04 GMT -5
Correct. The license restrictions are actually on the SACD disc and its content - and essentially prevent any licensed SACD player from "letting you have access to" the DSD stream FROM THE DISC or a full-quality digital conversion of it. Since the HDMI connection is considered to be secure, sending it over an HDMI connection is allowed. (Note that the Oppos can convert the DSD from an SACD to PCM AND SEND IT OUT OVER THE HDMI LINE, however the other digital audio outputs are muted when you play an SACD.) The SACD copy protection scheme is a combination of the fact that licensed players won't allow you access to the digital data stream, and that you can't RIP SACDs on a computer because current DVD and Blu-Ray drives simply can't play the discs. Once you have the DSD audio stream "away" from the SACD disc, it's just another audio file format, which many converter programs can convert from and to. I don't know if there are any DRM methods that can be specifically applied to DSD files, but all the DSD files I've tried were freely copyable and convertable. FooBar2000 can convert from DSD to PCM (and maybe the other way), and jRiver can convert in both directions... and AudioGate, and Saracon. As far as I know, the DSD license itself is free. (I think Sony asks you to fill out a form before downloading the spec, which probably means that they retain legal control over it, but it is currently a "no charge" formality.) You're right in that there would be bandwidth issues with multi-channel DSD over Coax or Toslink. The way the XMC-1 is set up internally, there is a path to send DSD data straight from the HDMI inputs to the DAC, which is what we do. No such path exists for S/PDIF data, which is why the XMC-1 can't accept DSD via the S/PDIF or USB inputs. Adding this would require a significant hardware change. Even if the CM6631A were able to accept DOP, there is no process in place to de-encapsulate it and get it to the DAC You're quite correct about the HDMI restriction on SACDs... it's built into the license/standard. However, the restriction is part of the SACD standard, so DSD FILES from other sources, like downloads, or files you've converted to DSD, aren't subject to it, and you can play them on an Oppo or a computer and send them over other digital connections as a DSD bitstream. (Some DACs also accept a DSD bitstream via USB using a new type of encapsulation called DOP - DSD over PCM.) However, the XMC-1 only accepts DSD via HDMI. Thanks for the clarification. So no DSD license restrictions disallowing bitstreaming over coax or optical. What about bandwidth limitations for multichannel DSD and those connections? And with the XMC at least, it's really a moot point, right? |
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,256
|
Post by KeithL on Jul 7, 2015 13:30:57 GMT -5
However, the XMC-1 only accepts DSD via HDMI. Is that due to lack of support in HW or FW at the moment? I.e. does CM6631A support DoP and/or native DSD? The CM6631A is a USB reciever, and USB is a packet-based format, which DSD is not, so I don't think it will support DSD directly. As far as I know, DOP is simply a way to encapsulate the DSD data stream inside a PCM data stream. In the context of USB, the data is then "stuffed into standard USB data packets", sent somewhere over a standard USB connection, and then the original DSD data stream is extracted at the other end. Therefore, I'm pretty sure that almost any USB port or device can be used to transfer DSD data using DOP. However, in the XMC-1, the DSD data is routed from the HDMI circuitry straight to the DSD input on the DAC, while there is no provision to extract DSD data from USB packets, and no way to route it directly from the USB "end of town" to the DSD input on the DAC. (The short answer is - it's hardware.) |
|
|
|
Post by novisnick on Jul 7, 2015 13:53:15 GMT -5
Hey KeithL ,,,,,what's the best way to get music out of a E-Go?  ?,,,,,, he,,,,,,,,,he,,,,,,,,,he,,,,,,,, Just a little levity, didn't want to stir the pot ,,,,,,,too much!!  |
|
|
|
Post by geebo on Jul 7, 2015 13:53:33 GMT -5
Correct. The license restrictions are actually on the SACD disc and its content - and essentially prevent any licensed SACD player from "letting you have access to" the DSD stream FROM THE DISC or a full-quality digital conversion of it. Since the HDMI connection is considered to be secure, sending it over an HDMI connection is allowed. (Note that the Oppos can convert the DSD from an SACD to PCM AND SEND IT OUT OVER THE HDMI LINE, however the other digital audio outputs are muted when you play an SACD.) The SACD copy protection scheme is a combination of the fact that licensed players won't allow you access to the digital data stream, and that you can't RIP SACDs on a computer because current DVD and Blu-Ray drives simply can't play the discs. Once you have the DSD audio stream "away" from the SACD disc, it's just another audio file format, which many converter programs can convert from and to. I don't know if there are any DRM methods that can be specifically applied to DSD files, but all the DSD files I've tried were freely copyable and convertable. FooBar2000 can convert from DSD to PCM (and maybe the other way), and jRiver can convert in both directions... and AudioGate, and Saracon. As far as I know, the DSD license itself is free. (I think Sony asks you to fill out a form before downloading the spec, which probably means that they retain legal control over it, but it is currently a "no charge" formality.) You're right in that there would be bandwidth issues with multi-channel DSD over Coax or Toslink. The way the XMC-1 is set up internally, there is a path to send DSD data straight from the HDMI inputs to the DAC, which is what we do. No such path exists for S/PDIF data, which is why the XMC-1 can't accept DSD via the S/PDIF or USB inputs. Adding this would require a significant hardware change. Even if the CM6631A were able to accept DOP, there is no process in place to de-encapsulate it and get it to the DAC Thanks for the clarification. So no DSD license restrictions disallowing bitstreaming over coax or optical. What about bandwidth limitations for multichannel DSD and those connections? And with the XMC at least, it's really a moot point, right? Clear as a bell now. Thanks. |
|
|
|
Post by jmilton on Jul 7, 2015 14:41:41 GMT -5
^ What geebo said...  |
|
|
|
Post by qdtjni on Jul 7, 2015 15:46:42 GMT -5
Is that due to lack of support in HW or FW at the moment? I.e. does CM6631A support DoP and/or native DSD? The CM6631A is a USB reciever, and USB is a packet-based format, which DSD is not, so I don't think it will support DSD directly. As far as I know, DOP is simply a way to encapsulate the DSD data stream inside a PCM data stream. In the context of USB, the data is then "stuffed into standard USB data packets", sent somewhere over a standard USB connection, and then the original DSD data stream is extracted at the other end. Therefore, I'm pretty sure that almost any USB port or device can be used to transfer DSD data using DOP. However, in the XMC-1, the DSD data is routed from the HDMI circuitry straight to the DSD input on the DAC, while there is no provision to extract DSD data from USB packets, and no way to route it directly from the USB "end of town" to the DSD input on the DAC. (The short answer is - it's hardware.) PCM is AFAIK not packaged and it works over USB and other packaged protocols such as TCP/IP, in that sense there is no difference to DSD. In fact data sent over USB or other packaged protocols is usually not packaged itself, unless if the package data itself is an encapsulated packaged protocol, for instance TCP/IP in a VPN tunnel. There are several DACs that do accept native DSD over USB. Obviously, the player HW and SW must be able to send that too. This link lists quite a few DACs and other equipment that do support DSD, either over DoP or native DSD. DSD stuffAs for DoP it uses 16 bits of the PCMs 24 bit for DSD data and 8 bits for metadata including headers to inform the receiver end that it is DoP and not normal PCM. I think the decapsulation is done in a DSP or some other processor between the digital input and the DAC. The latter seems to be the case with Schiit Loki, that also uses the CM6631A. So the HW limitation is at least not in the USB receiver and not in the DSD capable DAC then.
Having said that, I use DIRAC and I'd rather have LMS transcode the few DSD files I have to PCM streams and have DIRAC than listen to DSD without DIRAC.
EDIT: XMOS receivers support DoP decapsulation, www.xmos.com/download/public/USB-Audio-Software-Design-Guide(6.6.0rc5.a).pdf |
|
?,,,,,, he,,,,,,,,,he,,,,,,,,,he,,,,,,,,
