novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,223
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Post by novisnick on Jul 9, 2015 10:43:52 GMT -5
Well written and very well thought out! Yes, a preamp, I love the XSP-1, will raise the quality of the music about 10 fold. well,,,,,,,,,,,,,,almost!! I'm surprised you didn't contend with my remark about the XPA-1 and XPA-2 sounding the same. What kind of monoblock CEO are you, anyway??? There is always a time to be gracious and not take away from the principal idea. I love to keep people guessing too!!!
They don't,,,,by the way,,,,,he,,,,he,,,,he,,,,,,
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Post by michaelg523 on Jul 10, 2015 5:08:52 GMT -5
I understood Your "wall of text" real fine. But I have a few reflections; Though I´m pleased with the acoustic enviroment in my music-/cinemaroom, I surely will concider som sort of acustic panel. I´ve learned that a balanced signal path doesn´t necessery mean better sound. The balanced signal path is for supressing hum in long signal Cables. Or aren´t we talking about the same thing? One less A/D - D/A conversion sounds good. But I connect my CD-player digitally today so I really don´t have that extra conversion. People here in Sweden keeps telling me that it´s a "huge" difference between an integrated vs good extern DAC, but I really have very hard to hear that. And more than once I have asked the question; "If Your cables, pre´s, amp´s, DAC´s, give such huge improvements in sound vs my stuff - why is my system still sounding better than Yours?"
Well, I understand that even if I got myself a really good sounding system, there still can be room for improvements. And I am curious about the XSP-1.
I think I will gain 3 dB per channel, that is 6 dB. And 6 dB isn´t neglectable. And for the moment I do concider both mono blocks and a pre-amp.
Hehe
Actually, normally I have all the power I need. I mostly listen to classical or jazz, but also rock and folk music, and then I never lack power. But when looking at movies, somtimes I would like some more headroom. And my son sometimes likes to play his music - which ia about the same as mine + modern dance/trance - where the latter can make heavy demands on the amp. I can recommend You all to listen to Infected Mushrooms att highest possible (and then some) level.
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Post by garbulky on Jul 10, 2015 8:14:08 GMT -5
Balanced is not just for eliminating hum. XLR can do that very well. A fully balanced signal through the entire source happens like this. Two signals of the same kind are produced instead of one. One is out of phase sort of like a mirror of the other. Both these signals travel through all the gear that is balanced. So if your gear is all fully balanced (just because it has XLR doesn't mean it is fully balanced) then this out of phase signal travels alongside the regular one. Both signals pick up distortion as they travel through the gear. At the end they recombine and the distortions pick up get cancelled out (because of the out of phase) signal. So it does eliminate real distortions. However....does fully balanced obtain real audible results? I think the jury is still out on that. A lot of people here say that they can't hear a difference. So it's not a guarantee that it will result in audible differences. If I had to guess, I would say the differences are pretty small. The reason your system sounds better than theirs is because the biggest differentiators in a speaker system IS your speakers. It brings the most change. (The other big ones are your room and its reflections and speaker positioning). However running those Revel's from a reciever is usually less than optimal imo. You can hear the difference even on speakers a fraction of the cost. For instance, I can hear it on mine and my friends. Your system should benefit from better source electronics imo. But...it's not a guarantee. Room setup, reflections, and speaker positioning may or may not mask any differences obtained by improving the source electronics. The difference to be expected using a (good) DAC and an XSP-1 to your XPA-1 L's should be a more "solid" and "powerful" sound. The soundstage is not quite as vague. For instance if you currently here stuff from the left and right speaker positioned in different points in space. Now you may here them in relation to each other. As if they are playing in the same hall. It sounds less lie they were recorded individually and stuck wherever. There is a graininess that I've heard on recievers that is reduced in the sound. It sounds "stronger" and less like a recording. Basically things feel less like you're listening to a record of stuff and more like it's real and in the room. Things like depth and a seamless soundstage improves. It becomes less left, center, and right. And more one big "picture". The dynamics improve. And even if it may seem kind of like the same volume, your perception of volume will increase. This is apparent in instruments including ones you hear in the background. You know when you hear a piece and you hear the main performer jamming out whether it's a guitar or a lead singer. Their inflections and little subtleties cause them to appear louder and softer as they perform. But did you notice the background? The background instruments like say the drums. You know those cymbals and the snares. Well you can hear them. But now you may hear additional differences. For instance, it sounds less like a backing track and more like a real person playing them. You can hear the loud and soft parts when the guy hits the snares. YOu can hear better the tone of the cymbals. Instead of just a cymbal clash, you can hear that time when he hit it slightly louder etc. You may hear the splash reflect off the walls of the venu etc. I refer to this small but quick changes in dynamics as microdynamics. Here's a good example Here the star is obviously Morgan James. But those backup singers are really amazing. You can tell already. With an improved DAC and pre-amp you can hear them feel more in the same room. The piano can be heard more in relation to the room. It's a large instrument so its position in the room and how it interacts with it can be heard. The little little bass inflections he gives to the piano can be heard better. The little mid range inflections are more easily heard. It's relation to the box drum in the same space is better represented. You can probably hear a lot of what I'm describing. You'll just here more of it Now...none of this improvement is guaranteed to be heard. The room and speaker positioning does make or break any subtle improvements.
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Post by michaelg523 on Jul 11, 2015 15:58:58 GMT -5
garbulky: Thank You for your commited contribution. Much of what You describe, I recognize from when I got my Revel´s a few months ago. The speakers and how they play with/in the room are really the most essential for a good sound. And then an amp with enough power. I´ve met too many hifi charlatans trying to sell me stuff for thousends of dollars, where I don´t really hear any improvements. I know I don´t hear any big differenses between various CD-players or preamps of OK to good quality, and that makes me wary about where I should put my money. I have too many times heard that my stuff is to poor and that´s why I don´t hear all the improvements. Only a few weeks ago I understood the reason I couldn´t hear a fantastic power chord för several thousends of dollars, was becacause of my lousy crap China amp (=Emotiva XPA-2). With a high quality amp I would easally recognize a better power chord from a worse. (In the real world bad hifi component´s generally doesn´t mask distortion, bandwith deviation or noise. It adds.) So it´s not that I don´t trust You when You say a better DAC and a good preamp could do it for me. It´s just that I really don´t know whether I can hear or appreceate the difference. But you´ve really got me to sigh for it!
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Post by garbulky on Jul 11, 2015 20:14:15 GMT -5
Good to hear from you. I know at least one person who cannot hear appreciable difference between most electronics (that meet the minimum standard you mentioned). It is very possible that you are one of those people. Double blind tests and a gentleman called Peter Azecel (I think that's how you spell it) also agree with you. The differences I've told you about are ones that I've personally heard as well as my friend who is also on this forum. But that doesn't mean it will be the same for you. Always trust your ears not anybody else's. And...if you are happy with what you have, then stick with it. As for power chords and cables, I am not the least bit interested in the high priced ones. Just get me some that work is my stance on
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Post by emotivate on Jul 20, 2015 20:19:36 GMT -5
I would agree with the preamp change comments, being very beneficial. I have had both an XPA-2 in my system, which I sent back under the trial period, and purchased a pair of XPA-1's gen1, which made a big difference in sound quality. With such low distortion specs on both amps, I wouldn't think you hear the distortion so much from either, but to my ears the amps do indeed have different sounds, and the XPA-1's deliver the JUICE, the current less efficient speakers need more of, better control a bigger more dynamic sound overall and refined as well. If you are on the fence about the XPA-1's, go for it IMHO ! Add the XSP-1 and you have a home run.
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Post by mhm2526 on Jul 26, 2015 9:35:26 GMT -5
I have two 2.0 systems. The "new" system is an XSP-1(gen2) and a pair of XPA-1s (gen2) driving Magnepan 1.7s (relatively inefficient speakers at 86db). The old system is a pair of vintage 1990 Carver Platinums currently being driven by two bridged XPA-2s (gen2) and a gen2 XSP-1. I originally used an XPA-200 and a USP-1 for the new system and then upgraded to the XPA-1s and the XSP-1. I moved the 200 and the USP to the old system to replace some vintage Carver electronics when they finally conked out. I then upgraded the old system with the XPA-2s, so I had the USP and the 2s driving the Platinums until I added the XSP-1. The biggest difference in both systems was the XSP-1. I think you have already made the most effective upgrade to your system with the Studios but I would retire the Denon and replace it with the XSP-1. I think you will experience noticeable changes - all good. Even if you keep the Denon you have a great system, so enjoy!
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Post by michaelg523 on Aug 15, 2015 15:12:21 GMT -5
Also if you haven't done so already. You really want by TermCoach"> room treatments. Even ONE will help. Stick this on the wall behind your couch at head level. Best improvement for your money. Even if I don´t have any big problems with my room. I have a peak at 90 Hz and some "disturbance" below that. I have thought of getting a bass trap, and your suggestion got me from thinking to action. Thanks! . I have bought two bass traps, one for each corner behind the speakers. For about 300 $ I almost completely got rid of the 90 Hz peak, and also gained a little less disturbance. Probably the best improvement possible for my money. Now I have to enjoy this, while I think about what will be with new amplifiers or preamp.
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Post by garbulky on Aug 15, 2015 15:16:40 GMT -5
Also if you haven't done so already. You really want by TermCoach"> room treatments. Even ONE will help. Stick this on the wall behind your couch at head level. Best improvement for your money. Even if I don´t have any big problems with my room. I have a peak at 90 Hz and some "disturbance" below that. I have thought of getting a bass trap, and your suggestion got me from thinking to action. Thanks! . I have bought two bass traps, one for each corner behind the speakers. For about 300 $ I almost completely got rid of the 90 Hz peak, and also gained a little less disturbance. Probably the best improvement possible for my money. Now I have to enjoy this, while I think about what will be with new amplifiers or preamp. Very glad to hear! And a 2 inch room panel works wonders behind your couch as well. Really helps with the reflections from the back wall! Enjoy your listening! www.atsacoustics.com/item--ATS-Acoustic-Panel-24-x-48-x-2--1001.html
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Post by teaman on Aug 15, 2015 15:45:53 GMT -5
Just a thought, I used to use 10 awg copper electrical wire and I switched over to 12 awg braided copper speaker wire and there was a significant improvement. I guess the braided wire actually works better than a solid core wire to pass audio signals. Worth a try.
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,223
|
Post by novisnick on Aug 15, 2015 16:07:38 GMT -5
Even if I don´t have any big problems with my room. I have a peak at 90 Hz and some "disturbance" below that. I have thought of getting a bass trap, and your suggestion got me from thinking to action. Thanks! . I have bought two bass traps, one for each corner behind the speakers. For about 300 $ I almost completely got rid of the 90 Hz peak, and also gained a little less disturbance. Probably the best improvement possible for my money. Now I have to enjoy this, while I think about what will be with new amplifiers or preamp. Very glad to hear! And a 2 inch room panel works wonders behind your couch as well. Really helps with the reflections from the back wall! Enjoy your listening! www.atsacoustics.com/item--ATS-Acoustic-Panel-24-x-48-x-2--1001.html+1
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,223
|
Post by novisnick on Aug 15, 2015 16:13:00 GMT -5
Hi! I´ve got a XPA-2 (gen 1) since a couple of years with which I´m very pleased. Recently I got myself a new pair of speakers (Revel Studio2) which are less effective than my old ones, but on the other hand they can handle more power. Therefore the XPR-2 seems to be the natural choise. Unfortunately these don´t ship to Europe. And that´s why I´m posting here. When I read about XPA-1 and take a closer look at specs and measurements, it seems to me as if it beside twice the power (per chanel compared to XPA-2) - also has got considerably lower distortion. And this is what my questions are about. Have I read the specs/measurements correctly? And if so - is the lower grade of distortion audible? (Or more correctly - is the higher grade of distortion of XPA-2 audible?) Kind regards, Michael Ps. English isn´t my native laguage. Hopefully You´ll understand what I´m trying to say anyway. Your English is splendid and your question is intelligent andwell thought out, unfortunately I can be of no help. But others will chime in I'm sure. FWIW, the MONOBLOCK SOCIETY is always looking for new members.
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Post by dave5280 on Aug 19, 2015 17:59:57 GMT -5
I am new to the forum so I thought I would add my 2 cents on the XPA-1 vs XPA-2 discussion. I have been using an XSP-1 with a XPA-2 amp. I have owned the XPA-2 (generation 1) for about 2 years now and noticed a big difference when I added the XSP-1 to the mix from my old preamp! I am using some Tekton Pendragons as my main speakers. Last week I decided to take the plunge and ordered up a pair of XPA-1's. I was not sure if it was worth it or if I would be able to hear a difference but thought I could always use the extra power since I do like to play my music at reference levels! I am less than 20 hours into them and I am amazed at the step up in sound quality from the XPA-2's. Right out of the box, I noticed a depth of sound stage and clarity I had not experienced with the 2's. Bass is tighter and more refined probably due to the 1's having a damping factor of 500 while the 2's have a 100 damping factor. I was able to clip the 2 when I really got on it from time to time but have yet to find the red line on the 1's (mind you I have only had them less then one week). My own person opinion is that the XPA-2 does not sound the same as the XPA-1's even past the 60 watt class A stage. In other words, there is a definite difference to my ears at say 100 or 200 wpc output when comparing the two amps. The XPA-1's sound cleaner, more refined, more detailed and have gobs of power. While this does not equate to my system being "louder" it does make a huge difference in the overall presentation of music at both low and shake the house levels. I would definitely recommend the XPA-1's to anyone looking to make a big difference in their sound system.
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Post by teaman on Aug 19, 2015 18:24:47 GMT -5
Welcome to the forum Dave, and congrats on your new gear. I regret passing up a pair of XPA-1's a month or so back. Eventually I will upgrade a step or two from my XPA-2's. Maybe shoot for the stars and grab some XPR-1's. Thanks for posting your thoughts!
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,223
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Post by novisnick on Aug 19, 2015 18:27:31 GMT -5
I am new to the forum so I thought I would add my 2 cents on the XPA-1 vs XPA-2 discussion. I have been using an XSP-1 with a XPA-2 amp. I have owned the XPA-2 (generation 1) for about 2 years now and noticed a big difference when I added the XSP-1 to the mix from my old preamp! I am using some Tekton Pendragons as my main speakers. Last week I decided to take the plunge and ordered up a pair of XPA-1's. I was not sure if it was worth it or if I would be able to hear a difference but thought I could always use the extra power since I do like to play my music at reference levels! I am less than 20 hours into them and I am amazed at the step up in sound quality from the XPA-2's. Right out of the box, I noticed a depth of sound stage and clarity I had not experienced with the 2's. Bass is tighter and more refined probably due to the 1's having a damping factor of 500 while the 2's have a 100 damping factor. I was able to clip the 2 when I really got on it from time to time but have yet to find the red line on the 1's (mind you I have only had them less then one week). My own person opinion is that the XPA-2 does not sound the same as the XPA-1's even past the 60 watt class A stage. In other words, there is a definite difference to my ears at say 100 or 200 wpc output when comparing the two amps. The XPA-1's sound cleaner, more refined, more detailed and have gobs of power. While this does not equate to my system being "louder" it does make a huge difference in the overall presentation of music at both low and shake the house levels. I would definitely recommend the XPA-1's to anyone looking to make a big difference in their sound system. He's mine!!! And y'all can't have him!!,,,,,,ha,,,,,ha,,,,,ha,,,,,, Seems I have another follower in the MONOBLOCK Society!!,,,,,Mha,,,,Mha,,,,Mha,,,,,,, Yep, a convert to the Dark Side!!, Yes! ,,,,,,,Yes!,,,,,,,,, the MONOBLOCKs sound THAT DANG GOOD!!!!! Hearing is believing, simple as that! My new found friend, your application will be sent ASAP so you can become a member in good standing, after a short time application for your key to the,,,,,,,,Shhhhhh!,,secret,,,,wait, I'll get back to you!!
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Post by teaman on Aug 19, 2015 18:31:35 GMT -5
Get on the shtick novisnick....I have two pair of UPA-1's and i am still waiting for my induction to the group...
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,223
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Post by novisnick on Aug 19, 2015 18:37:53 GMT -5
Get on the shtick novisnick....I have two pair of UPA-1's and i am still waiting for my induction to the group... SHhhhhh,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, You had to get "IN" the car when it came by to pick you up!! Don't know how you missed the message??,,,,,,,,,,,,,shhhh!!!!,,,,,,,
we'll be in touch,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,I was never here,,,,,,,,,,
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Post by dave5280 on Aug 21, 2015 17:14:30 GMT -5
Ok, so it is true, monoblocks are awesome!!! Any advice on speaker cables to use with the XPA-1's? Also I am running both off a dedicated 20 amp circuit. Would it be worth it to have a dedicated 20 amp for both? I know they recommend it for the XPR's but just curious if getting more current would be noticeable for the XPA-1's? Is there no end to the quest for ultimate sound (within reason on a modest budget that is)?
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Post by garbulky on Aug 21, 2015 17:17:25 GMT -5
Nah, you don't need a dedicated 20 amp. An XSP-1 (or any good dedicated two channel analog preamp - not processor) should help the sound for two stereo. Also room treatments
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Post by dave5280 on Aug 21, 2015 19:34:01 GMT -5
Well, I have the XSP, love the Direc and have room treatments. As I mentioned, I am new to the forum and am still trying to figure out how to post pictures. Would love to send a picture of my Emotiva gear and speakers.
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