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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2015 8:40:31 GMT -5
I agree Gary. Amplification matching is not necessary but if the budget allowed. Go for it
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Jul 14, 2015 9:17:11 GMT -5
Matching speakers would be (was) my priority and makes all the difference, IMHO I've matched my center to my towers, basically a tower on its side with the speakers aligned properly, and amplification for HT made less of a difference then for 2 channel stereo music. I've matched both XPA-1Ls and XPR-1s to a XPA-5 for the center and surroundes and could hear no difference after the processor ran its room correction. If or my system, I would never underpowered the center channel if my finances were sufficient. 200 WPC minimum for the average sized room. I'd also like to add that if I listened to more SACDs and/or 5.1 music, I would prefer to match the center amp as well. Mention was made that sometimes in HT the center channel is the most active ( TRUE ) and most of that time it will draw almost all of the power the amp for that channel can supply, ie: a XPA-5 will pour most of its power to that speaker with little info coming from the surroundes. Mixing engineers know what their doing, no one can hear speech when to much info is coming from the other speakers. These are a few of my thoughts, YMMV
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Post by michaelg523 on Jul 14, 2015 9:41:25 GMT -5
I agree Gary. Amplification matching is not necessary but if the budget allowed. Go for it Wasted money really. The surround speakers does fine with substantially less power than the front speakers. The center speaker need maybe more power than the each front channel if You route 100% of the center signal to it. If You route some of the signal to the front speakers You can do with less power to Your center speaker. If You route 100% of the center signal to Your fronts, You don´t need a center speaker at all. But You have to toe in Your fronts enough. Enough in this case means that You will barely see the OUTSIDE of Your front speakers. Not many persons know about this, and in a typical hifi show only a handful of the exhibitors toe in their speakers enough. The absolute greatest advantage is thas Your sweet spot becomes a sweet field. You can practically sitt in front of one of the speakers and still get an acceptable sound stage. And there isn´t really any drawback. I myself have been into hifi for decades, but it was just a few years ago I learned about toing in enough. Then why do I use a center? Because I have one. And because it don´t do any harm. But my surround system sounds just as good without a center speaker.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2015 9:57:20 GMT -5
This is home THEATER. have ou ever been to a commercial theater that uses a phantom image? No. Why? Cause it's not how it's supposed to be setup for movies. A center channel is supposed to be used. It anchors the dialog to the screen. Not because "you have one"
Knock yourself out. Do it wrong. You obviously have a thought of how you want to do it. Despite my trying to inform you the proper way to set things up in a multichannel setup So why argue against it.
You CAN also run HT in mono but it wouldn't be correct would it?
If you want to run a phantom center do it. If you want to route center sound to the mains do it. But I am telling you doing so will mess with the imaging of where the dialog should be coming from. If that doesn't bother You again go for it. But with a phantom center you will never have good imaging outside of the sweet spot. It's just not possible.
I don't get this board sometimes. Everyone swears the importance of hearing sound as the director producer intends. That you can tell the difference in how amps sound. But as soon as home theater movies becomes the content. It's a wel you can get away with this. And get away with that. You can't have it both ways if you are and audiophile. all sound should be important to you
Please kee in kind I'm trying to inform you of the way it's intended to be reproduced. Setting it up in any other form is among compromises. And won't sound as its intended.
Would you do that to your 2 channel listening? If you answer is no...the. You should rethink you Ht setup philosophy. They shouldn't be different.
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Post by bolle on Jul 14, 2015 10:10:43 GMT -5
michael: Well I have a completely different opinion: - Center channel is the most important channel for HT, especially if you listen with more than one person in different seating positions - Center channel speaker should be identical to main speakers - Amplification should be the same for all 3 speakers - Toe in depends on the room and the speakers - some are optimized for "on axis listening", some for "15 to 30° degrees listening". Toe in isn´t always wise to do... So who is right now? I guess nobody... So please don´t try to generalize your opinion!
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Post by michaelg523 on Jul 14, 2015 10:54:41 GMT -5
As I said earlier; not many people know about this. It´s a common belief that You must have a center speaker. And if it makes You happy - it´s fine with me. There are three main purpouses with a center speaker; 1. If You don´t toe in your main speakers enough, You only have a very small sweet spot ant the entire sound stage will fall apart when You move from the sweet spot. A center will help here. 2. If Your front speakers are of less quality, the will not present an accurat and stable image. A center will help here also. 3. If You require more output than your front speakers/amps are up to, a center speaker with an amp also helps here. But if You have front speakers of good quality, with enough output och toe them in enough, a center speaker (and amp) are just wast of money. I understand this statement is a bit controversial among people who hasn´t experienced this. Here in Sweden some audiophiles even get angry at me when I say this!!! Hopefully You don´t. Either You beleive I´m wrong and stick to your center speaker, or You think it´s worth a try. And maybe You´ll learn something new about sound reproduction. Note that You´ll benefit from correctly toed in speakers also when You play 2-channel (or 2.1). You get a huge sweet field instead of that little tiny spot!
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Post by brutiarti on Jul 14, 2015 10:57:55 GMT -5
For my speakers toe in is a crime. Even the product manual says it as number one priority "1) Do not toe-in the speakers towards the listening position. The front of the speaker must be parallel with the rear wall"
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2015 11:11:18 GMT -5
As I said earlier; not many people know about this. It´s a common belief that You must have a center speaker. And if it makes You happy - it´s fine with me. There are three main purpouses with a center speaker; 1. If You don´t toe in your main speakers enough, You only have a very small sweet spot ant the entire sound stage will fall apart when You move from the sweet spot. A center will help here. 2. If Your front speakers are of less quality, the will not present an accurat and stable image. A center will help here also. 3. If You require more output than your front speakers/amps are up to, a center speaker with an amp also helps here. But if You have front speakers of good quality, with enough output och toe them in enough, a center speaker (and amp) are just wast of money. I understand this statement is a bit controversial among people who hasn´t experienced this. Here in Sweden some audiophiles even get angry at me when I say this!!! Hopefully You don´t. Either You beleive I´m wrong and stick to your center speaker, or You think it´s worth a try. And maybe You´ll learn something new about sound reproduction. Note that You´ll benefit from correctly toed in speakers also when You play 2-channel (or 2.1). You get a huge sweet field instead of that little tiny spot! There couldn't be more misinformation in one posts than this. Pleas do not post this as fact when you are wrong. Somone may read this and think it's correct. You saying it's not well known is bogus. You havent discovered some uncovered magic that isn't known to the masses. Because you are just flat wrong. None of the above reasons are the actual reasons for a center speaker Please ask yourself this question. If we are ignorant to this magical phenomenon or we have non capable mains or haven't toed them in enough. Why hasn't this become he standard? Why hasn't it appeared in commercial theaters? Please don't cop out and say marketing.
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Jul 14, 2015 11:16:14 GMT -5
As I said earlier; not many people know about this. It´s a common belief that You must have a center speaker. And if it makes You happy - it´s fine with me. There are three main purpouses with a center speaker; 1. If You don´t toe in your main speakers enough, You only have a very small sweet spot ant the entire sound stage will fall apart when You move from the sweet spot. A center will help here. 2. If Your front speakers are of less quality, the will not present an accurat and stable image. A center will help here also. 3. If You require more output than your front speakers/amps are up to, a center speaker with an amp also helps here. But if You have front speakers of good quality, with enough output och toe them in enough, a center speaker (and amp) are just wast of money. I understand this statement is a bit controversial among people who hasn´t experienced this. Here in Sweden some audiophiles even get angry at me when I say this!!! Hopefully You don´t. Either You beleive I´m wrong and stick to your center speaker, or You think it´s worth a try. And maybe You´ll learn something new about sound reproduction. Note that You´ll benefit from correctly toed in speakers also when You play 2-channel (or 2.1). You get a huge sweet field instead of that little tiny spot! If you would be kind enough to post your sig it may give me an idea of your basis for your statements. Thanks
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Post by michaelg523 on Jul 14, 2015 11:25:56 GMT -5
For my speakers toe in is a crime. Even the product manual says it as number one priority "1) Do not toe-in the speakers towards the listening position. The front of the speaker must be parallel with the rear wall" Ok, of course there are speakers with a frequency respons that makes toe-in wrong. And then You will (hopefully happily )have to live with your sweet spot instead of getting a sweet fiels. This has only been an issue by very few of the speakers I´ve come through. Most speakers benefits from a strongly toe-in.
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Jul 14, 2015 11:50:52 GMT -5
I do have a spare set of XPA-1Ls, maybe tonight I'll bi -amp my CC-690. Any thoughts??
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Post by pedrocols on Jul 14, 2015 12:02:37 GMT -5
I do have a spare set of XPA-1Ls, maybe tonight I'll bi -amp my CC-690. Any thoughts?? If I was you, I would bi-amp the Ball Cap instead...
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Jul 14, 2015 12:10:47 GMT -5
I do have a spare set of XPA-1Ls, maybe tonight I'll bi -amp my CC-690. Any thoughts?? If I was you, I would bi-amp the Ball Cap instead... Ball Cap is only as a single receptor.,,,,he,,,he,,,,he,,,,,
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Post by pedrocols on Jul 14, 2015 12:18:07 GMT -5
If I was you, I would bi-amp the Ball Cap instead... Ball Cap is only as a single receptor.,,,,he,,,he,,,,he,,,,, Bummer....
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Post by michaelg523 on Jul 14, 2015 12:27:24 GMT -5
There couldn't be more misinformation in one posts than this. Pleas do not post this as fact when you are wrong. Somone may read this and think it's correct. You saying it's not well known is bogus. You havent discovered some uncovered magic that isn't known to the masses. Because you are just flat wrong. None of the above reasons are the actual reasons for a center speaker Please ask yourself this question. If we are ignorant to this magical phenomenon or we have non capable mains or haven't toed them in enough. Why hasn't this become he standard? Why hasn't it appeared in commercial theaters? Please don't cop out and say marketing. It´s really nothing magic obout this (of course!). It´s pure physics. Although it´s a well known fact by many people, we are still in a minority (it´s quite common by audiophiles with technical degrees here in Sweden). And it´s not as if i´m abusing anyone or cheating anyone of money. Quite the controry - if this works for You, You can save yourself the money for a center speaker and an amplifier. But still some people gets provoced instead of trying it out - or not if that´s more comfortable. Love, peace and high fidelity!
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Post by audiosyndrome on Jul 14, 2015 12:32:13 GMT -5
IMO the most important feature in having a center channel speaker is the ability to increase the sound level of the dialogue in a poorly mixed movie. E.g., where the sound from the other channels are overwhelming the center channel. Impossible to do with phantom imaging. And there are lots of poorly mixed movies.
Russ
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Post by michaelg523 on Jul 14, 2015 12:32:03 GMT -5
If you would be kind enough to post your sig it may give me an idea of your basis for your statements. Thanks I´m sorry, but I don´t know what that means. Do You want me to explain how the toe-in I´m speaking of works? Or do You want to know how I know this? Or is it something else You want to know?
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Jul 14, 2015 12:35:03 GMT -5
I want you to share what equipment you own.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2015 12:36:14 GMT -5
Where's that beating a dead horse gif when you need it
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Post by michaelg523 on Jul 14, 2015 12:39:27 GMT -5
IMO the most important feature in having a center channel speaker is the ability to increase the sound level of the dialogue in a poorly mixed movie. E.g., where the sound from the other channels are overwhelming the center channel. Impossible to do with phantom imaging. And there are lots of poorly mixed movies. Russ As I stated earlier; some AV-receivers can route the center channel to the fronts. If You do this, then You still are able to turn up (or down) the level for the center channel till it suites You. But even with a receiver without this feature, I don´t think it´s a big problem. But if your recever lacks this feature and You want to be able to change the level, you´ll certanly use a center.
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