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Post by garbulky on Oct 22, 2015 12:13:03 GMT -5
The oppo 105 is a fantastic DAC. Add an XSP-1 and it elevates it to the best sound I've heard. Well the dual power sound XV15 subs helped a bit. Having said that, it is able to resolve quality differences between mp3 and CD quality audio when I heard it. MP3 has always sounded a bit smoother a little bit more tube like - less grit to be heard though ultimately that was because there was just the slightest bit less to be heard. But Mp3s can still bring a formidable amount of quality to the mix.
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Post by yves on Oct 22, 2015 13:11:26 GMT -5
^^ Even my phone can resolve quality differences between mp3 and CD quality audio. IMO the Oppo BDP-105 doesn't sound as good as its predecessor, the BDP-95, and, if I may be so bold to say so sir, I think neither Oppo product stands a fraction of a chance soundwise against the DAC that I currently use for my stereo listening needs.
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Post by garbulky on Oct 22, 2015 13:45:24 GMT -5
i beleive it yves. your dac looks amazing!
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Oct 22, 2015 14:42:34 GMT -5
Thank you. There is no deception involved.... any more than it's deceiving to describe my gas-powered car as "a car with an electric starter". The terms "balanced connection", "balanced input", "differential input", "fully balanced circuitry", and "balanced output" each have very specific meanings.... which we've explained more than a few times, many other manufacturers explain, and you can find plenty of detailed information about using Google, or in any decent electronics design or audio textbook. Balanced CONNECTIONS are very good at not picking up externally generated noise - especially hum. That makes balanced connections a good choice if you have to use long cables, or if you have to run your cables near power lines, or through walls (where you may not know where the power lines are). So, if you're using unbalanced cables, and you're getting hum or other odd noises picked up by the cables, then there's a very good chance that switching to balanced cables and connections will help - and quite possibly eliminate them. Likewise, if it's a new setup, by using balanced connections, you will reduce the likelihood of having hum or other noise problems. However, if you're using unbalanced cables, and aren't having noise problems, then there's no reason to expect balanced cables or a balanced connection to sound any different. In a fully balanced AMPLIFIER, you have two equal and opposite signals being amplifier by two identical amplifier modules, which, because of the way they're hooked up, causes some types of distortion to cancel out, resulting in lower overall distortion figures. The key fact here is that, ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL, a balanced amplifier MAY have less of some types of distortion, and so in turn MAY sound better. Note the highlighted words! The difference isn't huge, and a poor quality balanced amplifier may well actually sound worse than a better quality unbalanced one (there really isn't any proper technical term for "not-balanced" in this context). "Fully balanced circuitry" is simply one circuit topology - which has several advantages - and even a few disadvantages. (But, yes, if you want a "fully balanced system", then you need all fully balanced components, connected together by balanced connections.) Many audiophiles are "armchair engineers" and like to latch onto one specific feature and assume that it is critically important to the exclusion of all else.... but that's not really a good way to get the best performance for your money. For example, a fully balanced amplifier requires almost twice as many parts as a not-fully-balanced one. This means that, all else being equal (as I said above), the balanced amplifier may have slightly lower figures for certain types of distortion. However, it's going to cost almost twice as much, and the extra parts may actually result in its being slightly noisier. And, if the cost is held to being the same, because it uses so many more parts, either they used cheaper parts, or they cut corners someplace else to keep the price down. In order for "all else to really be equal", the fully balanced amplifier is going to have to cost substantially more. In the end, the fully balanced amp at the same price may sound better, or worse, or the same. You're much better off judging each device on its own merits - which include performance specifications and actual sound quality. Well that's a black mark against Emotiva in my books. I went over the manual again and it is definitely deceiving. It sure sounds like you are getting balanced inputs with the XPA-2. I certainly understand your frustration. As others note, it is common in the industry to accept the XLR inputs, yet not have fully balanced circuits within the gear. And you likely would not hear the difference unless you have long cable runs and interference sources that might impact RCA cables. The bigger difference, frankly, would be made by quality of internal components and overall design of the component. In the future, whether you buy from Emotiva or others, if you want to make sure that the component is fully balanced internally, it is always best to ask because the info in literature/web sites can be confusing. I now know from experience that when Emotiva says a piece of gear "accepts XLR/balanced inputs" that this is no guarantee it is internally balanced through the whole thing. It is so only if they explicitly say it is (and even then, there can be confusion...for example, the XSP-1 is fully balanced through it as long as you don't use the tone controls and I think if you don't use the crossovers). Net, always best to ask in advance. Mark |
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Post by adaboy on Oct 22, 2015 16:03:30 GMT -5
There is no deception involved.... any more than it's deceiving to describe my gas-powered car as "a car with an electric starter". The terms "balanced connection", "balanced input", "differential input", "fully balanced circuitry", and "balanced output" each have very specific meanings.... which we've explained more than a few times, many other manufacturers explain, and you can find plenty of detailed information about using Google, or in any decent electronics design or audio textbook. Keith - with all due respect to you, I did NOT ever use the word "deception" in my comments, so I personally take offense to your response copying my response to a post...I take offense because your response implied I was using such a term. I was merely advising people that if they didn't know for sure - to ask the manufacturer. In fact, I was defending Emotiva in the series of comments I made. You may note that the OP was, starting off, pissed off at Emotiva. And, you will note that, in fact...I went the soft shoe approach and explained what I knew and gave him advice for the future without disrespecting Emotiva published comments or the industry standard. Net, please never imply I am saying something I didn't say. To do otherwise is an insult to a long term customer who has a track record of defending the company who pays your salary. Truth be told...the "buzzwords" that the industry uses, Emotiva included, can indeed be deceptive/misleading to people who are just learning. I had planned to avoid using the term, but you forced me. If Emotiva wants to rise above the others, come up with a more clear/less deceptive way to say what the XLR connections are for that is understandable to the layman. I'd be happy to accept pay to help Emotiva figure that out... Good day... Mark Mark, I saw Keith's response starting with Thank You to you (Mark) and went on to explain to (beevil) that there was no deception and his post. I read it as a nod to you and your thoughtful response. Obviously I have no dog in it just letting you know how I read it, I could be wrong but your post to (beevil) was both honest and thoughtful in my opinion. Thanks |
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klinemj
Emo VIPs 
Official Emofest Scribe
Posts: 15,080
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Post by klinemj on Oct 22, 2015 16:07:56 GMT -5
My post is now deleted...I misread Keith's post. Apologies to Keith.
Mark
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Post by adaboy on Oct 22, 2015 16:10:48 GMT -5
My post is now deleted...I misread Keith's post. Apologies too Keith. Mark All good man, that new sub got you felling froggy lol!!! Your post about the sub has got me considering a new one, and heavens knows I don't need it.  |
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klinemj
Emo VIPs
Official Emofest Scribe
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Post by klinemj on Oct 22, 2015 16:12:24 GMT -5
Oh yes...you do need one!
Mark
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Post by monkumonku on Oct 22, 2015 16:18:25 GMT -5
My post is now deleted...I misread Keith's post. Apologies too Keith. Mark All good man, that new sub got you felling froggy lol!!! Your post about the sub has got me considering a new one, and heavens knows I don't need it. Yeah, Mark was probably knocked silly from all the shaking in his house. |
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Oct 22, 2015 16:23:58 GMT -5
Yes, that was my intent - but no apology necessary  Keith - with all due respect to you, I did NOT ever use the word "deception" in my comments, so I personally take offense to your response copying my response to a post...I take offense because your response implied I was using such a term. I was merely advising people that if they didn't know for sure - to ask the manufacturer. In fact, I was defending Emotiva in the series of comments I made. You may note that the OP was, starting off, pissed off at Emotiva. And, you will note that, in fact...I went the soft shoe approach and explained what I knew and gave him advice for the future without disrespecting Emotiva published comments or the industry standard. Net, please never imply I am saying something I didn't say. To do otherwise is an insult to a long term customer who has a track record of defending the company who pays your salary. Truth be told...the "buzzwords" that the industry uses, Emotiva included, can indeed be deceptive/misleading to people who are just learning. I had planned to avoid using the term, but you forced me. If Emotiva wants to rise above the others, come up with a more clear/less deceptive way to say what the XLR connections are for that is understandable to the layman. I'd be happy to accept pay to help Emotiva figure that out... Good day... Mark Mark, I saw Keith's response starting with Thank You to you (Mark) and went on to explain to (beevil) that there was no deception and his post. I read it as a nod to you and your thoughtful response. Obviously I have no dog in it just letting you know how I read it, I could be wrong but your post to (beevil) was both honest and thoughtful in my opinion. Thanks |
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Post by jhob on Oct 22, 2015 16:48:41 GMT -5
Who among us couldn't use a new sub?!
Well except for Bmoney - as far as I know he still has that crack your foundation monster 6-15" PSA prototype.
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Post by beevil on Oct 22, 2015 18:45:22 GMT -5
By the way your esoteric DAC appears to use a true multi bit DAC processing at 18 bits. Nowadays most DACs are one bit! And the reason for it is that it's cheaper. (The other being it's easier to get higher SNR values). But nowadays other than Schiit, the ability to buy true multibit decoding solutions is very pricey  That's really good to know. Both the DAC and the transport are very well made and each weigh a ton. Had them service a couple of years ago and the tech couldn't get over how well built they were. And I'm sorry if I created a problem with my disappointment. I just wanted to try a balanced system that's all. I really wasn't pissed. It's hard to convey inflection with the written word. Anyway, no harm no foul and thanks for the explanation between the diferences of balanced and unbalanced connections and electronics involved. |
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Post by yves on Oct 23, 2015 0:56:46 GMT -5
Who among us couldn't use a new sub?! Well except for Bmoney - as far as I know he still has that crack your foundation monster 6-15" PSA prototype. Too much shaking the dust off of your walls causes the dust to eat at your brain. Next thing you know, you need a balanced connection between your brain and keyboard. |
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Post by rcheliguy on Oct 29, 2015 14:41:07 GMT -5
The oppo 105 is a fantastic DAC. Add an XSP-1 and it elevates it to the best sound I've heard. Well the dual power sound XV15 subs helped a bit. Having said that, it is able to resolve quality differences between mp3 and CD quality audio when I heard it. MP3 has always sounded a bit smoother a little bit more tube like - less grit to be heard though ultimately that was because there was just the slightest bit less to be heard. But Mp3s can still bring a formidable amount of quality to the mix. The 105 works absolutely great as a preamp driving an amp directly. No additional preamp is necessary, and I use the balanced outputs for noise rejection if nothing else. I've listened to 24 bit SA-CD's then ripped them as lossless FLAC at 16 bits and then ripped them as 320 kbps MPEG3's. I consider them a challenge to differentiate using reference headphones ( The 105D has a great headphone amp as well ) or through my electrostatic speakers. I'm not suggesting that there is no way to empirically measure a difference between them, but I haven't been able to tell them apart yet and even if I could find some small difference I don't think it would be worth getting excited about. BTW I find the term arm chair engineers pretty accurate. I happen to be an electrical engineer, but my specialty was in digital design and computer engineering not in analog design. So even as an electrical engineer I do not consider the analog world an area that I have enough of a background to say anything with authority. I can follow along, but not much more than that. The problem is that I am well versed in psychology which makes almost anything I "think" I hear suspect. We are not rational creatures and our perceptions are VERY subjective and depend on how we are feeling and our expectations. Put a 500lb class A amplifier with beautiful metal work in front of my speakers and I may get excited which impacts what I hear. I may assume it should sound better and therefore it does! |
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Post by garbulky on Oct 29, 2015 15:02:25 GMT -5
The oppo 105 is a fantastic DAC. Add an XSP-1 and it elevates it to the best sound I've heard. Well the dual power sound XV15 subs helped a bit. Having said that, it is able to resolve quality differences between mp3 and CD quality audio when I heard it. MP3 has always sounded a bit smoother a little bit more tube like - less grit to be heard though ultimately that was because there was just the slightest bit less to be heard. But Mp3s can still bring a formidable amount of quality to the mix. The 105 works absolutely great as a preamp driving an amp directly. No additional preamp is necessary, and I use the balanced outputs for noise rejection if nothing else. I've listened to 24 bit SA-CD's then ripped them as lossless FLAC at 16 bits and then ripped them as 320 kbps MPEG3's. I consider them a challenge to differentiate using reference headphones ( The 105D has a great headphone amp as well ) or through my electrostatic speakers. I'm not suggesting that there is no way to empirically measure a difference between them, but I haven't been able to tell them apart yet and even if I could find some small difference I don't think it would be worth getting excited about. BTW I find the term arm chair engineers pretty accurate. I happen to be an electrical engineer, but my specialty was in digital design and computer engineering not in analog design. So even as an electrical engineer I do not consider the analog world an area that I have enough of a background to say anything with authority. I can follow along, but not much more than that. The problem is that I am well versed in psychology which makes almost anything I "think" I hear suspect. We are not rational creatures and our perceptions are VERY subjective and depend on how we are feeling and our expectations. Put a 500lb class A amplifier with beautiful metal work in front of my speakers and I may get excited which impacts what I hear. I may assume it should sound better and therefore it does! You are referring to bias right? Also the ear/brain is rather bad at telling certain types of gross differences or let alone detecting them. And it's also very good at detecting minute amounts of certain types of distortion. I think that is the interesting bit about listening by ear. Inherently there are plenty of things to bias it. INCLUDING double blind tests. You can confuse the brain by showing them two very similar signals with only slight differences. For instance show a person a picture filled with say a hundred shades of blue scattered randomly. Now change just two of the shades. Ask him if there was a difference. Now the eyes are accurately able to show that there was a difference. It can tell between the different shades. But his brain got confused because the comparison had so many variables = too many random shades in the picture. So I do agree the ear and bias and confusion is inherent in the subjective test. However, I have heard too many electronics that measure beyond audibility to be different to automatically say I was fooling myself. Have you by any chance compared it with an XSP-1? |
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Post by sheetmetalworker on Oct 29, 2015 16:26:00 GMT -5
Xsp-1, I've tried both and have settled on xlr connection. It's not night and day. Maybe a few decibles louder because of the voltage output at the balanced outputs of the xsp-1
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Post by PoloOle on Oct 29, 2015 21:37:23 GMT -5
XMC-1 running two XPA-2G1 bi-amping a pair of Martin Logan Ascent i. Sounds amazing.
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Post by rcheliguy on Nov 2, 2015 15:17:29 GMT -5
Have you by any chance compared it with an XSP-1? This is the point that I always find humorous. If I'm completely satisfied by what I'm hearing and think it sounds GREAT, what is the point? This endless treadmill people put themselves on constantly trying out new equipment seems like a pointless waste of time to me. If this is a hobby to you and the process of evaluating new pieces of equipment all the time is what you do for fun, than by all means have a great time playing musical chairs with audio components. There is an argument to be made for finding something that makes you happy and just listening to it Then again if the whole point is for your system to never be done, than more power to you! |
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Post by garbulky on Nov 2, 2015 15:44:33 GMT -5
Have you by any chance compared it with an XSP-1? This is the point that I always find humorous. If I'm completely satisfied by what I'm hearing and think it sounds GREAT, what is the point? The point for you is if you want better sound, then maybe the xsp-1 may give it. It may not. But I think it may. It is a subjective hobby after all! The point for me is a bit more long winded. I have tried what I've been talking about and found it beneficial. If you tried it out too and felt it wasn't, I would be interested in knowing that info and what you didn't like about it. That's why I asked about it. Also it certainly lends more credibility to to when you say you do not need an XSP-1 because I assume you know that it can't sound better from experience. As for the endless treadmill and being satisfied. I gotta agree with you. It's good to find a point where one is satisfied. Otherwise you could try endless stuff. If you are satisfied and don't want to buy more stuff, hey more power to ya. I am personally after better sound quality. So if I find it and I think it's within my reach I am interested. I am also interested in general how good reproduced sound can get - even if it's out of my reach. New experiences all that good stuff. But personally I do feel that I want to get an end game system. One I can be satisfied with for a long time. My current speakers have satisfied me for quite a while. And my previous setup did the same. Now I'm thinking even more long term. |
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Post by rcheliguy on Nov 3, 2015 11:43:58 GMT -5
I have wanted a set of Martin Logan speakers since I first visited the ML factory in Lawrence Kansas in 1988, so this satisfies that bucket list item I know a guy with the exact same speakers and OPPO 105D I have but instead spent $10K between his AMP and preamp and more "invested" in cables than my XPA2 cost me. Does it sound better than my system? I imagine that depends a lot on his room and placement, but maybe it does. Does it matter to me if it does? Not at all. I've passed the point where I'm satisfied with my setup. It sounds wonderful to me and I'm not planning to put any more time and effort into this. I hit this same point with my digital camera. I'm now 3 generations behind, but it does everything I want it to do as do my lenses. Are better cameras out there? Absolutely, but my camera currently handles 99% of my needs and given that I'm not a professional that takes care of me pretty well. |
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