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Post by geebo on Nov 5, 2015 15:54:40 GMT -5
If neither the digital source nor the power amp has a volume control, then you need to either grab an Emotiva Control Freak or, alternatively, add a preamp that has a volume control. Neither my separate DAC nor my XPA-2 have one, so I am using the volume control of my UMC-200 for this exact reason. But the Control Freak is an analog only volume control available in either RCA or balanced connections. I don't think that would work well between a digital output of a CD player and the digital input of an amplifier like the Lyngdorf. |
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Post by jmilton on Nov 5, 2015 16:20:14 GMT -5
Here's another "interesting " class D from Essence. Read their description and you'll wonder why you didn't buy a class D years ago. However, I know of no one that has reviewed it. This is the size I would expect Emo to make... www.essenceelectrostatic.com/product/essence-dpa-440-class-d-amp/--------------- Steinway Lyngdorf is a reputable European company HQ'd in Denmark (Mmmm...danish). The US distributor is out of LA. They show up all of the time at RMAF and THE Show at CES. I have never had a chance to audition anything of theirs to date. I was really interested in reviewing their other amp that has built in room EQ software. Now THAT is a novel idea!! |
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Post by jmilton on Nov 5, 2015 16:25:44 GMT -5
If neither the digital source nor the power amp has a volume control, then you need to either grab an Emotiva Control Freak or, alternatively, add a preamp that has a volume control. Neither my separate DAC nor my XPA-2 have one, so I am using the volume control of my UMC-200 for this exact reason. But the Control Freak is an analog only volume control available in either RCA or balanced connections. I don't think that would work well between a digital output of a CD player and the digital input of an amplifier like the Lyngdorf. The SDA 2400 also takes direct analog inputs...from, say a Control Freak. Thus the purported "flexibility" of this amp. |
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Post by geebo on Nov 5, 2015 16:28:27 GMT -5
But the Control Freak is an analog only volume control available in either RCA or balanced connections. I don't think that would work well between a digital output of a CD player and the digital input of an amplifier like the Lyngdorf. The SDA 2400 also takes direct analog inputs...from, say a Control Freak. Thus the purported "flexibility" of this amp. Yes, but Rickie was wondering what would happen if you plugged in the digital output of a CD player into the digital input of that particular amp with no volume control on either. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Nov 5, 2015 16:51:34 GMT -5
Hi again monkumonku - You have hit the nail on the head. There is NO ADVANTAGE to using an external DAC if you're using the internal D/A and A/D converters of a HT preamp or receiver. There is no way for a second (and unnecessary) set of conversions to improve the sound from the external DAC. Therefore, the ultimate analog output will sound like the WORST of the DACs that the signal has been run through. If you MUST use an AV preamp or receiver for bass management (or for any other reason), then the ultimate limit on sound quality will be either the AV component's DACs (most likely) or the external DAC (assuming you have a cheap one). Therefore, since you're limited by the sound quality of the AV processor, it is better (ALWAYS) to NOT use an analog input. The only exception, of course, is a phono front end, where you MUST use the analog input or in "Reference Mode" where the AV component's DACs are out of the system. Boomzilla |
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Post by yves on Nov 5, 2015 16:59:26 GMT -5
But if the analog signal is converted to a series of on or off pulses, can it be correct to call it analog? All PWM signals are digital signals, but not all digital signals are PWM signals. Even though the PWM signal itself is digital, none of the electronics in a Class D amp are, and, even if a Class D amp has a digital input, then the amp section is still not digital. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Nov 5, 2015 17:05:26 GMT -5
To the question "why do people refer to Class D as digital", I would say the #1 reason is that people hear one time that "class D means digital" and from then on - it's so obvious..."d=digital". Of course, as noted above, that's wrong...but it's easy to perpetuate.
Kind of like hearing that some people are "type A" personalities. The first "type A" personality people I met happened to be a-holes. So, I automatically think "type A = a-hole". But, of course, that's not (fully) true either.
Mark
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Post by monkumonku on Nov 5, 2015 17:14:44 GMT -5
To the question "why do people refer to Class D as digital", I would say the #1 reason is that people hear one time that "class D means digital" and from then on - it's so obvious..."d=digital". Of course, as noted above, that's wrong...but it's easy to perpetuate. Kind of like hearing that some people are "type A" personalities. The first "type A" personality people I met happened to be a-holes. So, I automatically think "type A = a-hole". But, of course, that's not (fully) true either. Mark Oh, I thought you were going to say "Class A" means "analog" (vinyl) and then do your analogy to type "A" personalities.  Just kidding, just kidding!!! Don't burn me with hot tubes or poke me with needles! |
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Post by yves on Nov 5, 2015 17:24:02 GMT -5
If neither the digital source nor the power amp has a volume control, then you need to either grab an Emotiva Control Freak or, alternatively, add a preamp that has a volume control. Neither my separate DAC nor my XPA-2 have one, so I am using the volume control of my UMC-200 for this exact reason. But the Control Freak is an analog only volume control available in either RCA or balanced connections. I don't think that would work well between a digital output of a CD player and the digital input of an amplifier like the Lyngdorf. If the amp has no analog input nor volume control, then if you want to use the digital output of a CD player, you'd be forced to use a separate digital volume control or a digital mix pad/console. That is, except of course if the digital output of the CD player already has a built-in volume control. |
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Post by yves on Nov 5, 2015 17:31:03 GMT -5
The only exception, of course, is a phono front end, ...Or a Studer/Ampex. |
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Post by geebo on Nov 5, 2015 17:33:27 GMT -5
But the Control Freak is an analog only volume control available in either RCA or balanced connections. I don't think that would work well between a digital output of a CD player and the digital input of an amplifier like the Lyngdorf. If the amp has no analog input nor volume control, then if you want to use the digital output of a CD player, you'd be forced to use a separate digital volume control or a digital mix pad/console. That is, except of course if the digital output of the CD player already has a built-in volume control. We got that but the question was what to do if plugging a digital output to a digital input with neither having a volume control. The Control Freak wouldn't do you any good there. |
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Post by yves on Nov 5, 2015 17:43:43 GMT -5
If the amp has no analog input nor volume control, then if you want to use the digital output of a CD player, you'd be forced to use a separate digital volume control or a digital mix pad/console. That is, except of course if the digital output of the CD player already has a built-in volume control. We got that but the question was what to do if plugging a digital output to a digital input with neither having a volume control. The Control Freak wouldn't do you any good there. Tell Lonnie!  |
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Post by DYohn on Nov 5, 2015 17:54:46 GMT -5
Hi again monkumonku - You have hit the nail on the head. There is NO ADVANTAGE to using an external DAC if you're using the internal D/A and A/D converters of a HT preamp or receiver. There is no way for a second (and unnecessary) set of conversions to improve the sound from the external DAC. Therefore, the ultimate analog output will sound like the WORST of the DACs that the signal has been run through. If you MUST use an AV preamp or receiver for bass management (or for any other reason), then the ultimate limit on sound quality will be either the AV component's DACs (most likely) or the external DAC (assuming you have a cheap one). Therefore, since you're limited by the sound quality of the AV processor, it is better (ALWAYS) to NOT use an analog input. The only exception, of course, is a phono front end, where you MUST use the analog input or in "Reference Mode" where the AV component's DACs are out of the system. Boomzilla You might think this is a logical statement, but it really isn't. No matter what your preamp does to the signal, giving it the best possible input signal ensures the best possible output. So if the preamp (or AVR) uses an A/D/A process, the best sounding A at the input will be equally better at the output than if the original A is crappy. So using a better quality DAC on the front end will always result in a better signal output than if the DAC on the source sucks. And at the same time, theoretically it can be argued that a pure digital signal chain right up the final necessary DAC required to drive loudspeakers should result in the best possible sound when using digital sources. It all depends on the gear.  |
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Post by geebo on Nov 5, 2015 18:19:30 GMT -5
We got that but the question was what to do if plugging a digital output to a digital input with neither having a volume control. The Control Freak wouldn't do you any good there. Tell Lonnie!  whatever... |
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Post by DYohn on Nov 5, 2015 18:22:50 GMT -5
If the amp has no analog input nor volume control, then if you want to use the digital output of a CD player, you'd be forced to use a separate digital volume control or a digital mix pad/console. That is, except of course if the digital output of the CD player already has a built-in volume control. We got that but the question was what to do if plugging a digital output to a digital input with neither having a volume control. The Control Freak wouldn't do you any good there. Connecting a digital signal to any DAC with no attenuation results in the same thing: full voltage output. So in the case of the amplifier with built in DAC, you'd get full volume output. This (among many other) is one reason you need a preamp. |
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Post by monkumonku on Nov 5, 2015 18:23:10 GMT -5
We got that but the question was what to do if plugging a digital output to a digital input with neither having a volume control. The Control Freak wouldn't do you any good there. Connecting a digital signal to any DAC with no attenuation results in the same thing: full voltage output. So in the case of the amplifier with built in DAC, you'd get full volume output. This (among many other) is one reason you need a preamp. Well now, I'd say that depends on how loud you like to listen to things. |
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Post by geebo on Nov 5, 2015 18:26:48 GMT -5
Hi again monkumonku - You have hit the nail on the head. There is NO ADVANTAGE to using an external DAC if you're using the internal D/A and A/D converters of a HT preamp or receiver. There is no way for a second (and unnecessary) set of conversions to improve the sound from the external DAC. Therefore, the ultimate analog output will sound like the WORST of the DACs that the signal has been run through. If you MUST use an AV preamp or receiver for bass management (or for any other reason), then the ultimate limit on sound quality will be either the AV component's DACs (most likely) or the external DAC (assuming you have a cheap one). Therefore, since you're limited by the sound quality of the AV processor, it is better (ALWAYS) to NOT use an analog input. The only exception, of course, is a phono front end, where you MUST use the analog input or in "Reference Mode" where the AV component's DACs are out of the system. Boomzilla You might think this is a logical statement, but it really isn't. No matter what your preamp does to the signal, giving it the best possible input signal ensures the best possible output. So if the preamp (or AVR) uses an A/D/A process, the best sounding A at the input will be equally better at the output than if the original A is crappy. So using a better quality DAC on the front end will always result in a better signal output than if the DAC on the source sucks. And at the same time, theoretically it can be argued that a pure digital signal chain right up the final necessary DAC required to drive loudspeakers should result in the best possible sound when using digital sources. It all depends on the gear. But if the DAC in the AVR is crappy does it matter how good the external DAC is if you are only going to send it through the crappy AVR DAC in the end? |
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Post by yves on Nov 5, 2015 18:42:23 GMT -5
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Post by Gary Cook on Nov 5, 2015 19:01:45 GMT -5
Hence why Ego's with their digitally controlled analogue volume control are so good  Cheers Gary |
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Post by DYohn on Nov 5, 2015 19:02:36 GMT -5
But if the DAC in the AVR is crappy does it matter how good the external DAC is if you are only going to send it through the crappy AVR DAC in the end? Of course it matters. Your signal can never sound better than that produced at the source. And if you're using a crappy AVR, Emotiva has preamps made just for you! |
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Just kidding, just kidding!!! Don't burn me with hot tubes or poke me with needles!
whatever...
