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Post by 405x5 on Dec 3, 2015 12:12:26 GMT -5
Your "view" actually, underscores your own Wikipedia indicated above. The chief audio engineer/designer of the current loudspeakers I use, is the first person to indicate the use of zip cord as all that is necessary to connect. Of course the home enthusiast knows better for sure. Bill |
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Post by 405x5 on Dec 3, 2015 12:27:19 GMT -5
"Vent all you want. I didn't change my power cords or speaker cables for you. I did it for me. I heard a difference. Doesn't matter to me if no one else does. This was for me, and I gave my thoughts to a question that was asked, based on my experiences. As for your choices, use what makes you happy." Ahh...ok NOW I got the right person! So, can you answer any of MY questions?? (you say you gave your thoughts to another, so I'm simply (and politely asking mine). Again, I'm asking first, on the power cords, can you somehow characterize what kind of difference you heard? (compared to what you had I assume)? Did you change the power cords first and note those changes before swapping out the speaker cables or both simultaneously. Stereo or surround sound? Bill |
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Post by splash51 on Dec 3, 2015 12:32:53 GMT -5
I was asking about power cords, I have had the AudioQuest cables for over a year.
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Post by lionear on Dec 3, 2015 13:04:57 GMT -5
I think what you wrote leads to an informal fallacy. And I couldn't explain it better than this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignoranceIn my view, the only way out is to use direct experience - try it out yourself. If you hear it, go with fancy cables and power cords. If you don't hear any difference, then go with free or ultra cheap stuff (as in Romex wiring that you can source from your local Habitat for Humanity - not "fancy" speaker cables from Emotiva, Blue Jean, etc.) Trying stuff out is the crux of the hobby. And what works for you does not mean that it works for everyone else. That seems like a very ineffective (and expensive) way to approach things; relying on the Brownian motion of choosing different products, trying them, and determining if there is a) a difference, and b) if that difference is "better." It seems much more effective to approach it scientifically by first identifying what properties of a cable affect sound followed by selecting the cables that have the properties you desire. This all presupposes that using a cable to shape the sound is something that is worthwhile. If power cables make a difference in sound what makes the two feet of power cable from the wall outlet to the device "special?" That 50 feet of romex behind the wall going to the fuse box seems much more significant comparatively, not to mention the main line coming from the pole, etc. It seems like if you are going to go for it with power line you better replace it all the way to the transformer... or to the hydroelectric dam. Part of dealing with the Argument from Ignorance is that one side will try and shift the burden of proof to the "other side". But the "form of argument" indicates that the result is going to be a tie. It doesn't matter what the purported proofs may be, and it doesn't matter whether we're talking about audio cables, or Ford vs Chevy. If you don't hear a difference, or if you accept the proposition that wire does not matter, then by all means use the power cables that come with your gear, and use the cheapest wire available for everything else. That does not mean cable from Emotiva, Blue Jean, Monoprice, etc. It means using things like Romex (bare wire at the ends) for speaker cable, and any old wire that you can get from a junk yard fitted into the cheapest RCA connectors you can find as interconnects. But if you hear a difference, then enjoy the journey as you try different cables. There's no right/wrong answer - there's only what you like/dislike. (And price is no indicator of whether a cable will work in your system.) As for effectiveness - what's the measure of effectiveness? I have my whole life to explore the choices so there's no time constraint, and the exploration of the choices is itself a fun thing to do. So trying out cables is a very effective way to maximize my enjoyment of the hobby. I do indeed use the Brownian Motion technique when it comes to tasting wines and food, too. And when I want to watch a movie: do I limit myself to the ones that won awards, or do I just try out an unknown movie - I can always turn it off if it's terrible! And when it comes to music, I keep an eye out for new bands, and have my friends tell me about cool music that they've come across. It's not a bad technique. It's what brought me to the Emotiva brand. And I continue to check out other brands. (Since this is an Emotiva site, I won't mention the other brands that I think are VERY GOOD.) I do run the risk of losing some money as I buy and sell different items. But this is a hobby, and all hobbies involve at least a little bit of expense. And everyone here has had a certain measure of success in our lives and we all have a little bit of disposable income. |
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Post by trevordj on Dec 3, 2015 13:29:32 GMT -5
But if you hear a difference, then enjoy the journey as you try different cables. There's no right/wrong answer - there's only what you like/dislike. (And price is no indicator of whether a cable will work in your system.) As for effectiveness - what's the measure of effectiveness? I have my whole life to explore the choices so there's no time constraint, and the exploration of the choices is itself a fun thing to do. So trying out cables is a very effective way to maximize my enjoyment of the hobby. I do indeed use the Brownian Motion technique when it comes to tasting wines and food, too. And when I want to watch a movie: do I limit myself to the ones that won awards, or do I just try out an unknown movie - I can always turn it off if it's terrible! And when it comes to music, I keep an eye out for new bands, and have my friends tell me about cool music that they've come across. It's not a bad technique. It's what brought me to the Emotiva brand. And I continue to check out other brands. (Since this is an Emotiva site, I won't mention the other brands that I think are VERY GOOD.) I do run the risk of losing some money as I buy and sell different items. But this is a hobby, and all hobbies involve at least a little bit of expense. And everyone here has had a certain measure of success in our lives and we all have a little bit of disposable income. If you find enjoyment trying out different gear I see why this approach is appealing to you. It certainly appeals to the cable manufacturers. I can see where it would be fun always searching for something new, exciting, or better. The difference is one of never ending consumption vs. pragmatically choosing the right tool for the job. Neither is right or wrong, just approached from a completely different frame of mind. That's not to say I buy the cheapest stuff. I use Belden speaker wire as I think they make a better product (and they make most of their stuff in the USA), not because it "sounds" better but because it is easier to fish through walls, has a tougher outer jacket, and is made with good quality OFC. I used to use monoprice speaker wire until I got a batch that was CCA. In the case of Belden coax (which I use to make interconnects) it has measurably superior noise rejection and is very easy to terminate. I am willing to spend a litle bit more on quality as the cost of opening up walls to fix a faulty cable is far greater than the marginally increased cost of these measurably superior products (again, not the "sound" but the quality of materials). Your approach will never make sense to me but I am glad you find enjoyment in it. That is ultimately all that matters and not something I would ever discourage. |
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Post by trinhsman on Dec 3, 2015 20:16:51 GMT -5
"Vent all you want. I didn't change my power cords or speaker cables for you. I did it for me. I heard a difference. Doesn't matter to me if no one else does. This was for me, and I gave my thoughts to a question that was asked, based on my experiences. As for your choices, use what makes you happy." Ahh...ok NOW I got the right person! So, can you answer any of MY questions?? (you say you gave your thoughts to another, so I'm simply (and politely asking mine). Again, I'm asking first, on the power cords, can you somehow characterize what kind of difference you heard? (compared to what you had I assume)? Did you change the power cords first and note those changes before swapping out the speaker cables or both simultaneously. Stereo or surround sound? Bill My answers will not change your opinion, but this is what I heard. Power cord change: More detail and clarity on well recorded material. Soundstage also seemed to widen compared to stock cord. Speaker cables: Much clearer sound, and instruments became easier to pick out. Sound stage opened more and became higher on same music that had been listened to. On this change the wife even asked what I had done. Cable changes were done at different times with the better power cord first, then better speaker cables later. This is what I heard, and others can disagree. It does not matter to me. For me, it was worth it. You can do what you feel best for your system. It is your system and it is what you prefer. I have done what I felt would be better, and to me it became better. you can do as you wish and if you feel it makes no difference, fine. I hope you would allow me the same thing in reverse |
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Post by 405x5 on Dec 3, 2015 23:40:31 GMT -5
I looked at those cables of yours from "Cullen" and "Morrow".
Is it safe to say you spent 4000.00 alone for the speaker cables and your 110 volt plug???
No wonder you are so happy!
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Post by sal1950 on Dec 4, 2015 0:41:29 GMT -5
Quotes from Peter Aczel and my personal feelings on the subject. www.biline.ca/audio_critic/audio_critic_web1.htm#aclwww.biline.ca/audio_critic/mags/The_Audio_Critic_26_r.pdf4 Cables—that’s one subject I can’t discuss calmly. Even after all these years, I still fly into a rage when I read “$900 per foot” or “$5200 the pair.” That’s an obscenity, a despicable extortion exploiting the inability of moneyed audiophiles to deal with the laws of physics. The transmission of electrical signals through a wire is governed by resistance, inductance, and capacitance (R, L, and C). That’s all, folks! (At least that’s all at audio frequencies. At radio frequencies the geometry of the cable begins to have certain effects.) An audio signal has no idea whether it is passing through expensive or inexpensive RLC. It retains its purity or impurity regardless. There may be some expensive cables that sound “different” because they have crazy RLC characteristics that cause significant changes in frequency response. That’s what you hear, not the $900 per foot. And what about the wiring inside your loudspeakers, inside your amplifiers, inside your other components? What you don’t see doesn’t count, doesn’t have to be upgraded for megabucks? What about the miles of AC wiring from the power station to your house and inside your walls? Only the six-foot length of the thousand-dollar power cord counts? The lack of common sense in the high-end audio market drives me to despair. |
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Post by trinhsman on Dec 4, 2015 7:20:40 GMT -5
I looked at those cables of yours from "Cullen" and "Morrow". Is it safe to say you spent 4000.00 alone for the speaker cables and your 110 volt plug??? No wonder you are so happy! Shows how little you know me. Yes, I have a very good speaker cable, I bough used lower models on EBay first, then traded up during a sale. Do I have over 500 in my speaker cables? Yes. Is it worth it to me? Yes. Would I purchase the highest level cable sold by them? No. There is a point of diminishing returns. The same is true inelectronics. I have always tried to reach the best "bang for the buck" level in anything I buy. That is why I started with Emo gear. Ultimately I moved away from amplification from Emo because in my opinion they were going down the home theater path. I am a 2 channel guy, old school, plain and simple. If I can't hold my music in my hand, I don't have it. If I play a movie, it is put in my DVD player and watched on a very good 2 channel system. That's me. That's what works for me and keeps me happy. As passionate as people are about cost of cables, I am just as passionate about 2 channel over 5.1, 7.1, 9.1, etc. I know you enjoy the system you have and the reasons you set it up the way you did. That is great. My biggest complaint in this hobby are the snobs that believe only their way or their ideas are correct. |
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Post by 405x5 on Dec 4, 2015 8:02:21 GMT -5
Quotes from Peter Aczel and my personal feelings on the subject. www.biline.ca/audio_critic/audio_critic_web1.htm#aclwww.biline.ca/audio_critic/mags/The_Audio_Critic_26_r.pdf4 Cables—that’s one subject I can’t discuss calmly. Even after all these years, I still fly into a rage when I read “$900 per foot” or “$5200 the pair.” That’s an obscenity, a despicable extortion exploiting the inability of moneyed audiophiles to deal with the laws of physics. The transmission of electrical signals through a wire is governed by resistance, inductance, and capacitance (R, L, and C). That’s all, folks! (At least that’s all at audio frequencies. At radio frequencies the geometry of the cable begins to have certain effects.) An audio signal has no idea whether it is passing through expensive or inexpensive RLC. It retains its purity or impurity regardless. There may be some expensive cables that sound “different” because they have crazy RLC characteristics that cause significant changes in frequency response. That’s what you hear, not the $900 per foot. And what about the wiring inside your loudspeakers, inside your amplifiers, inside your other components? What you don’t see doesn’t count, doesn’t have to be upgraded for megabucks? What about the miles of AC wiring from the power station to your house and inside your walls? Only the six-foot length of the thousand-dollar power cord counts? The lack of common sense in the high-end audio market drives me to despair. Yes!........great article. That one has been around for quite a while. One of the best Bill |
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Post by 405x5 on Dec 4, 2015 8:22:54 GMT -5
I looked at those cables of yours from "Cullen" and "Morrow". Is it safe to say you spent 4000.00 alone for the speaker cables and your 110 volt plug??? No wonder you are so happy! "Shows how little you know me" Don't know you at all.....only what you state "I bough used lower models on EBay first, then traded up during a sale. Do I have over 500 in my speaker cables? Yes. Is it worth it to me? Yes. Would I purchase the highest level cable sold by them?" Yes I saw the outfit that sells those speaker wires has some kind of trade in or up program. " There is a point of diminishing returns." True of many components but not wires, no not at all except for build quality and termination. Certainly not at all when looking for differences that could be heard. "Ultimately I moved away from amplification from Emo because in my opinion they were going down the home theater path." Emotiva "going down the home theater path"..........well uhhh..........ok. "I am a 2 channel guy, old school, plain and simple. If I can't hold my music in my hand, I don't have it. If I play a movie, it is put in my DVD player and watched on a very good 2 channel system. That's me. That's what works for me and keeps me happy." That's great! No problem with that and you share it with many here. "My biggest complaint in this hobby are the snobs that believe only their way or their ideas are correct." Biggest complaint? Really? Isn't there more to focus on here than something like that. Actually, I don't even know what constitutes a "snob" as you say in all of this. Certainly, I would not consider sharing technical knowledge in an effort to steer folks towards cost effective choices in places like interconnects to be anything except constructive criticism. Hopefully, some will get it and benefit by it. Bill |
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Post by brutiarti on Dec 4, 2015 8:56:22 GMT -5
For power cords the ones that come with the gear are perfectly fine, don't go the snake oil route. For speaker cables, nice looking cables is always better for the eye but they don't have to be expensive.
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Post by 405x5 on Dec 4, 2015 9:18:41 GMT -5
brutiarti said:
"For speaker cables, nice looking cables is always better for the eye"
I have to stop myself.........I'm in enough trouble already!
Bill
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bootman
Emo VIPs 
Typing useless posts on internet forums....
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Post by bootman on Dec 4, 2015 10:21:09 GMT -5
When it comes to power I do believe if you can do it, go down the balanced power route. There are real sonic and visual benefits to balanced power. My capital would go there first vs buying a specific power cable. But I'm an engineer first and an audiophile way down the list from there.  |
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Post by trevordj on Dec 4, 2015 11:24:07 GMT -5
Yes, I have a very good speaker cable, I bough used lower models on EBay first, then traded up during a sale. Do I have over 500 in my speaker cables? Yes. Is it worth it to me? Yes. Oh man, even for my "budget" cables, and all the crap I have purchased associated I have spent way more than $500. |
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Post by frenchyfranky on Dec 4, 2015 11:37:50 GMT -5
I found really funny that KeithL has until now never answered to this OP question in his own "asking to Keith section".  You know Keith, a very simple answer of a few words would be enough.  Anyway all always appreciated your small technical explanations of a few thousand words. Good luck with this one |
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Post by darien87 on Dec 4, 2015 15:33:10 GMT -5
Thanks, I have upgraded to AudioQuest Go 4 speaker cable and Golden Gate interconnects. they sound fantastic!! Using stock power cables:) Holy crap!!! $600 for speaker cables?!?!? I assume the ones you bought are like these? www.amazon.com/AudioQuest-Prepared-Speaker-Cables-Star-Quad/dp/B004Z8MUPQThat is beyond ridiculous. What do they need a battery for? Must be nice to have a ton of money burning a hole in your pocket. I made my own speaker cables with 12gauge wire from Monoprice, Emotiva banana plugs and some tech flex from Parts Express. I think they sound "fantastic" too.  |
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Post by 405x5 on Dec 5, 2015 10:30:03 GMT -5
"That is beyond ridiculous. What do they need a battery for? Must be nice to have a ton of money burning a hole in your pocket." Wait a minute! This is a BETTER deal than you think......after all, you can play at least 6 to 9 songs per battery (easily) Bill |
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Post by 405x5 on Dec 5, 2015 10:39:51 GMT -5
When it comes to power I do believe if you can do it, go down the balanced power route. There are real sonic and visual benefits to balanced power. My capital would go there first vs buying a specific power cable. But I'm an engineer first and an audiophile way down the list from there. Just curious if you were going to do this you would install a "balanced" sub panel correct? At what point from the main service would you install this? Bill |
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bootman
Emo VIPs
Typing useless posts on internet forums....
Posts: 9,358
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Post by bootman on Dec 5, 2015 10:43:11 GMT -5
When it comes to power I do believe if you can do it, go down the balanced power route. There are real sonic and visual benefits to balanced power. My capital would go there first vs buying a specific power cable. But I'm an engineer first and an audiophile way down the list from there. Just curious if you were going to do this you would install a "balanced" sub panel correct? At what point from the main service would you install this? Bill Depends on what you want to feed balanced power to. There are balanced transformers that can handle up to 1500W. So it all depends on your setup and needs. Example: www.equitech.com/products/rack/sonofqav.html |
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Anyway all always appreciated your small technical explanations of a few thousand words. Good luck with this one
