Thinking about A Tube Phono Stage any recomendations

[brubacca]

Dec 19, 2015 18:11:17 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

I specifically recommend against a tube pre-preamplifier. Why? The signals are so low a voltage that any (ANY) noise in the tube circuitry is amplified way out of proportion. Tube microphonics? Thermal noise? Hum? they ALL get amplified (really, really amplified) at that level. Once you're up above the millivolt range for the audio signal, the tube noise is lower in the noise floor.

For that reason, I prefer in order:

Passive devices (AKA the Sony HA-T10 transformers or other similar devices)
Quiet solid-state step-up devices (nicest I ever heard was my Mark Levinson)
Built-in MC inputs for the preamplifier

If it's tube sound you're after, go with an all-tube preamplifier or a tube buffer. Tubes are great for some things, but low-low voltage signal amplification isn't one of them.

Now that said, others DO disagree, and manufacturers DO make MC tube step-up devices. So read the caveat in my signature carefully!

Happy shopping!

Boomzilla- i had this specific conversation with a local dealer. He recommends against the low end Belles / Pro-Ject for this very reason.
The Jolida I recommended specifically has had a good track record for him.

[ocezam]

Dec 19, 2015 18:24:43 GMT -5 audiobill said:

Boom, I agree for non-American offerings.

I don't know why "Made in America" would change any of the absolutely correct technical arguments Boom put forth. Physics is physics. Physical properties and capabilities won't change around the globe, or the universe for that matter. If you want to go vinyl, stay away from tubes in the phono preamp.

[audiobill]

Parts quality in high gain applications is critical.
Sorry for that reality.

[Boomzilla]

Yes, it is possible to make a quiet tube pre-pre-preamp. But over the life of the tubes, microphonics, hiss (thermal noise), and possibly even hum can occur. It has nothing to do with the quality of the associated transformers, resistors, or capacitors, and everything to do with the nature of tubes themselves. Yes, a well-made tube can offer decades of reliable service, but even well-made tubes are prone, increasingly over time, to thermal noise, and eventually, microphonics. Want proof? Tap your tube lightly with a pencil. Surprisingly prone to amplify the tap, isn't it? The same thing happens with the vibrations from your speaker diaphragms - a delayed feedback loop that puts the speaker output right back into your amplifier.

For power amps, the microphonics are usually small enough in amplitude relative to the signal that they don't much matter. But the lower the signal, the greater the microphonic effect. Thus the market for little dampener rings that go on the tubes - they're intended to reduce microphonic effects. The dampers are adequate for preamps, but for phono signal amplifiers - often not.

So yes, one can make tube phono-cartridge amps - but it isn't the best place to use that technology.

Now that said, I'm kind of like the Pope lecturing about sexuality - I don't use phonograph sources any more, so my comments are mostly academic. It may be that the manufacturers of GOOD phono pre-preamps are clever enough to have overcome the issues that I speak of. I wouldn't know. So let your ears be your guide.

Cordially - Boom

[novisnick]

Dec 19, 2015 17:22:28 GMT -5 audiobill said:

Here's the best solution:

www.tubes4hifi.com/PH16.htm

I thought you recommended keeping away from tubes for vinyl?? 

[audiobill]

Not moi, if they are done properly with quality components.

Radio transmitters, microwave transmission, MIG guidance systems all use tubes.

[yves]

For $900 - $1,000 you should be able to find a used Eastern Electric MiniMax Phono preamp. I tend to think of it as "the tube version of the Musical Surroundings Nova Phenomena" because that's just how good it sounds IMO.

[sidvicious]

Actually both Boom and Audio Bill are right. Good tube amplification requires thought by the manufacturer and good components. When I first bought my Jolida JD9, I had problems with tube microphonics right away. I had RFI issues as well and eventually solved them on my own by using a ground from the turntable to the tube phono preamp, which is a given, and another ground wire from phono preamp to the preamp, which killed all RFI. This wasn't a problem with my solid state phono preamps, but I never took the chance. I'm not that far from a Major Television Station in town. I changed tubes and the problems with Microphonics went away with the Jolida. Microphonics is an issue with almost all tube equipment and it's the reason I got rid of my Rogue Ninety-Nine (6SN7), I was going through at least two tubes in two to three months.

I had a small box full of tubes because one to two tubes would go bad and the microphonics would take over (volume white noise) that you would hear when you changed the volume dial. I have had my Audio Research LS-17se (6H30) for three months or longer and I have not had one problem with microphonics/tube noise and I got it used and that person got it from someone else, which makes me the third owner on the same tubes, with no noise. I once did something interesting but purely on accident, sometime last year in January I walked across the carpet carrying static electricity with my socks on and I touched the top of my XPA-2,which immediately shut the amp off and I had to unplug it and turn it on and off and it was fine. I did the same thing with my Audio Research VT100 MKIII, reluctantly because of the tubes and it stayed on and wasn't effected, but I did hear a pop, both times when I touched the finger lift on my tonearm for my cartridge. (This is not a Emo vs Audio Reseach thing or argument as I have and enjoy both, just different design principals as Audio Bill eluded to.)

On the other side of this is when tube technology is done right, it's fantastic. My Audio Research PH8 (6H30), produces no noise, unless of course, I turn the volume to almost max, which is about what my old Musical Surroundings Nova Phonomenia-Battery operated did. Is it costly to get good tube tech and yes Audio Bill nailed it, but in the case of the Jolida JD-9, which I also use to own, it's was pretty good, stock except for bass response and in other circles, this phono preamp can be highly modified by yourself or Jolida or others to compete with the big boys. There is no free lunch with tubes, but to get a great phono preamp in solid state level, it isn't cheap either, (what's expensive to some, isn't to others) especially if you want one in the league of a PH8, a Sim Moon 610LP (solid state comes to mind). It is true that you can get something you can live with quicker with solid state than tubes, which is why the old additive of getting a solid state power amp and a tube preamp is true, I've had it both ways.

[USNRet]

Each to their own experiences. I can tell you that my Peach and NBS tube preamps, Tercel II tube phone stage and VRD tube amps (both mono and stereo versions) were a WHOLE lot quieter than the XPA-1s in my system. I am now without 2 channel.

[sounder]

+1 on the Jolida. Do some searching, and you'll find a ton of good reviews. It is very easy to mod it DIY, but if you don't want to do that, then Jolida can do it for you. Get the modded version straight away, and you are below budget, and get a great Phono Preamp.

I have one and like it a lot. I bought it several years ago, changed tubes and caps and saw improvement. Then, I took it to Jolida and had them do their top level upgrade, plus I run Mullard tubes. Even more improvement. It's very flexible, can handle all sorts of low and high output cartridges with ease. I don't think you can do better (as a whole package, considering the configurability) for under a grand.

[Boomzilla]

I specifically recommend AGAINST the Jolida phono stage. The gentleman I visited the other night has blown caps in his preamp (twice) when trying to hear phono through the Jolida. Since the cartridge can't put out enough voltage to damage the line-level preamp, the source HAD to be the Jolida (leaking cap putting intermittent high-voltage B+ onto the output). So be careful with Jolida phono stages.

Yes, this is anecdotal evidence, and from a single source. Therefore, take it with whatever skepticism you deem appropriate.

[sonicseeker]

I appreciate this discussion and all of the recommendations.
I have decided to postpone buying a different phono stage for now and I went in a totally new direction. I ordered a Decware Zen triode integrated SE34I.5 amp for my 2 channel setup. (thanks a bunch kazoo)

[sounder]

Jan 14, 2016 17:18:59 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

I specifically recommend AGAINST the Jolida phono stage. The gentleman I visited the other night has blown caps in his preamp (twice) when trying to hear phono through the Jolida. Since the cartridge can't put out enough voltage to damage the line-level preamp, the source HAD to be the Jolida (leaking cap putting intermittent high-voltage B+ onto the output). So be careful with Jolida phono stages.

Yes, this is anecdotal evidence, and from a single source. Therefore, take it with whatever skepticism you deem appropriate.

You are probably right.  Jolida is the only company using capacitors that may fail.  His problem couldn't be related to any other equipment having a problem, or any of his cables having a problem.  He couldnt have a power supply problem, or a power surge problem.  It also couldn't be the way he has configured it.  So, clearly Jolida is a bad company producing bad equipment.

The positive reviews are all wrong, and this thread which has almost 1900 posts from people who love it are all wrong.  Stay away because one person has an issue that can't be explained easily.  

You are making a very broad generalization based on very limited information.  If everyone in this forum decided because of an isolated experience that a product was bad, then this forum wouldn't exist.  Consider the first pre/pro built by Emotiva.  I think it was the LC-1, and it's quality and reliability record was disaster.  And yet, we support Emotiva whole-heartedly today.

Sarcasm aside, I have never had a problem with mine.  Typically a problem like you describe (if it is due to a faulty unit or faulty design) will happen within the first few months of use, which means they would fix it under warranty.  If it's happened later, something CAUSED the issue.  It isn't just because it is a Jolida.  Too many people own them and love them for it to be a faulty product or faulty design.

[Boomzilla]

Hi sounder -

You disregarded my last two sentences of the post. In general, Jolida makes good equipment. I've owned it & liked it.

But phono cartridges have such low output, and phono preamps have such gain that a leaky cap on the output DOES have the potential to fry downstream equipment. It's happened twice now, on the same channel, and both times, the line stage needed a very expensive repair job. Cable problems don't fry line stages. There is no other equipment on the input that fried BUT the Jolida phono stage.

I make no generalizations about Jolida specifically. I do recount this incident to highlight the possible consequences of using any tube phono stage. Such damage is not credible with solid-state phono stages that use far, far lower supply voltages. The potential damage is not unique to Jolida, but rather to any vacuum tube phono stage.

audiobill is absolutely correct when he says that parts quality counts. But it counts more in low-level signal amplification than it does farther along the amplification chain. 300 volts DC at the input of ANY line stage is likely to cause catastrophic damage. The potential is not there EXCEPT for vacuum tube phono stages. THAT's why I don't recommend them.

This doesn't mean that a well-built tube phono stage (with premium output caps) won't offer a long and trouble free life. It does mean that if the phono stage fries downstream equipment, neither the phono stage company nor the damaged-downstream-equipment company will pay for the subsequent damage. That will be the consumer's responsibility. So what are YOU willing to risk to have a tube phono stage? Particularly one designed and built to an economy price?

Now I've given my reasons for thinking that tube phono stages are the height of insanity. You don't have to agree with me. Your money, your choice. But the dangers that I've pointed out are real. If you want a tubed phono stage, in spite of the risks, then go for it. The likelihood of your phono stage ever having a defect are small. But if it DOES fail, the expense to you may be very, very large.

[sounder]

Jan 14, 2016 17:18:59 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

I specifically recommend AGAINST the Jolida phono stage.

I've had the jolida for five years at least. It has fried nothing. I have read a lot of information about the jolida, and have never heard of anything like what you describe. Possible?  Sure. Likely?  Probably not.

It works, sounds wonderful and I recommend it. I don't think I agree that it's designed and built to be an "economy" piece. It starts at $650 and is $850 with mods.

I felt a little put off, as if you are implying I (and others who recommended it) am stupid for owning it. Your words were clear and I responded. I don't doubt that things can have problems and cause damage to something else. Your brakes can fail and then you crash into the garage while parking. Does that mean you would specially recommend AGAINST a toyota?  Or a car in general?  

[Boomzilla]

Hi sounder -

You're right - Of all the Jolida phono stages, the one I met is the only one that I've seen fail. I agree that the vast majority of users will never have this issue. But the damages in this case are huge (and, now, repeated). Neither Jolida nor the Manley company will accept responsibility for these expenses, so the owner is liable by default.

I'd prefer to avoid that liability by using an inherently safer design. Many choose otherwise, and it's their right to do so.

Peace - Boom

[sonicseeker]

Any one have experience with Decware products. Anyone have a Rachael amp.