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Post by B-613 Command on Dec 22, 2015 23:19:14 GMT -5
I bought a used Fusion here on the lounge from another member. Got it a few days ago. Been listening to it. Sounds pretty good for a receiver. The sound field is a little thin though. It actually sounds better than any other receiver made in the last 20 years that i've heard.
Anyway - I'm thinking seriously about buying a Lexicon GX-7 amp and using that with the Fusion as my pre-pro. How much of a sound upgrade should I expect from that? My speakers are extremely unforgiving - they reveal the flaws in the upstream gear without mercy. Would the GX-7 really outperform the Fusion amps by much?
My second question is - right now I have the Fusion configured to bi-amp my fronts - so the SBL/SBR speaker connections drive my woofers. If I get the GX-7 and connect the SBL/SBR pre-outs to my amp will the FL/FR signals be there?
I will probably get to an XMC-1 one day down the road so i'm also thinking ahead.
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Post by teaman on Dec 22, 2015 23:42:13 GMT -5
I always lean towards more power....even if you don't need it. The reserve power and headroom is always welcome whether you are listening to music or movies. If the Lexicon gives you that little oomph you are looking for and money is available I say go for it. Just a word as far as the Lexicon, try not to over pay.
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Post by MusicHead on Dec 23, 2015 6:49:52 GMT -5
As power goes, assuming the Lexicon is specified as the Fusion (all channels active), you get about twice the power over 7 channels. It may sound a lot, but it means +3dB. Still not bad in term of additional headroom.
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Post by millst on Dec 23, 2015 11:27:25 GMT -5
As far as impact on sound, amps are pretty low on the chain. Especially so if you aren't playing at very loud levels. Room and speakers are the big two. Room treatment and EQ can help with the first.
Bi-wiring, bi-amping, etc. is mostly a waste of time unless you go the active crossover route, which few have the expertise to do.
-tm
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Post by garbulky on Dec 23, 2015 12:20:04 GMT -5
Sweet Jesus that Lexicon is expensive ...for not THAT much power. Your speakers are unforgiving? What are they? Doesn't seem like the Lexicon is what you ened for "unforgivng." If they are very resolving a pair of XPA-1 gen 2s. I did and do not regret that decision one bit. But if not get a used pair of XPA-2 gen 1s or twos. They are selling for dirt cheap used. Or go for an XPA-7. A bit extra but it's a BEAST!!
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Post by B-613 Command on Dec 30, 2015 10:01:59 GMT -5
My attention has been taken away by what I think are better options. What about the Krell KAV-250a/3 or the KAV-500 ?? Either one of those or a Bryston BRST5 (3 channel)? All of these amps put out about 125W (250 for the KAV-250) but that's not really what i'm aiming for. I do not listen to music loud anyway. I'm looking for an upgrade in the sound quality - especially in the bass - that's why i'm leaning towards the Krell.
It seems to me that all the new amps are ridiculously hot (like adding a space heater), huge (too big to fit into my entertainment center) and suck up so much power (will trip the circuit breakers in my place). I do not need 300W of pure class A. I do not have a rack. I just want an ordinary 17" wide 3-ch amp that sounds great and consumes less than 1800W of power. It seems to me the only models out there that fit this description are the older models. Krell and Bryston and Classe are names that stand out. So i'm leaning towards getting one of these older models for under $2000 and get it checked out before I buy it.
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Post by garbulky on Dec 30, 2015 17:09:42 GMT -5
If you're going to spend $2000 you're going about it wrong. Imo. Used class A amps and getting them "checked out" doesn't get you much distance. They may work now but who knows in the long run. Also 125 watts aint a huge amount.
I would look at Emotiva's line up instead for X series amps. Used any of the X series amps go for excellent prices. The XPA-5 stands out The XPA-1 gen 2s btw are class A power but they have a switch that puts it in class AB for less heat output when not in use. For your venere 3.0 an amp with balls like the XPA-1 is what I would reccomend as it is quite resolving and also very powerful.
Then you would perhaps looking at upgardings your source. The XPA-5 allows you to go full XMC-1 eventually without worrying about other amps.
You want an end game two channel source? Schiit Ygdrassil DAC and XSP-1. But this is 2 channel only. Not surround. You can integrate a pre pro later in their seamlessly later using the XSP-1 if you wish.
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Post by knucklehead on Dec 30, 2015 17:18:44 GMT -5
Get a better subwoofer if you don't like the bass you're getting at present. Cross the sub/L/R speakers at 80hz and you should gain some sound quality. Klipsch make good speakers - subs? Not so good IMO - and I'm not alone in that opinion. If you are dead set on getting an external amp why not buy a new one? Emotiva has the XPA-3 on sale for under $700. I think you'll find as others have that its a very good sounding amp.
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Post by garbulky on Dec 30, 2015 17:26:10 GMT -5
Powersound XV15 (two of them) will be an excellent match for you
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Post by B-613 Command on Dec 31, 2015 0:31:22 GMT -5
Get a better subwoofer if you don't like the bass you're getting at present. Cross the sub/L/R speakers at 80hz and you should gain some sound quality. Klipsch make good speakers - subs? Not so good IMO - and I'm not alone in that opinion. If you are dead set on getting an external amp why not buy a new one? Emotiva has the XPA-3 on sale for under $700. I think you'll find as others have that its a very good sounding amp. I'm old-school. To me bass is not what the sub puts out - it's what woofers put out. My sub is only there to fill in the bottom octave. Look at the price tags on your fronts and your sub. Which one do you think is the more sophisticated piece of equipment? If you say sub you got ripped off. Give me speakers - sorry Fronts - with good solid mid-bass punch upper-bass detail and depth and i'm happy. I have only about 12 songs in my entire music library that has bass notes in them deep enough that my fronts need help to produce them. For music I could lose the sub and really not miss it. It's the home-theater stuff where the sub comes into play and truly enhances the experience by producing sounds that you feel as much as hear. I've never understood the logic behind that - 80 Hz cutoff - I've tried it once and it sounds terrible - at least on my system. The woofers roll off at 220Hz and 180Hz - if I cut those speakers off at 80Hz it kills the woofers. My speakers are not the problem. The bass is great with my old vintage receiver. It puts out 120W into 8, 240W into 4 ohms and so forth. I've never heard a sub that wasn't boomy. The one I have now sounds better than any other subs i've heard. But i'm far from an expert on subs. What sub did you have in mind? |
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Post by B-613 Command on Dec 31, 2015 0:33:38 GMT -5
Powersound XV15 (two of them) will be an excellent match for you I did a search and the powersound XV15 is a sub not an amp. And it's discontinued and no longer available. I already have a sub i'm looking to get an amp |
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Post by B-613 Command on Dec 31, 2015 1:01:26 GMT -5
If you're going to spend $2000 you're going about it wrong. Imo. Used class A amps and getting them "checked out" doesn't get you much distance. They may work now but who knows in the long run. Also 125 watts aint a huge amount. I would look at Emotiva's line up instead for X series amps. Used any of the X series amps go for excellent prices. The XPA-5 stands out The XPA-1 gen 2s btw are class A power but they have a switch that puts it in class AB for less heat output when not in use. For your venere 3.0 an amp with balls like the XPA-1 is what I would reccomend as it is quite resolving and also very powerful. Then you would perhaps looking at upgardings your source. The XPA-5 allows you to go full XMC-1 eventually without worrying about other amps. You want an end game two channel source? Schiit Ygdrassil DAC and XSP-1. But this is 2 channel only. Not surround. You can integrate a pre pro later in their seamlessly later using the XSP-1 if you wish. I would give the XPA-3 serious consideration but the XPA amps do not fit into my entertainment center. I know that sounds lame but (a) i'm married and furniture decisions are critical and not worth it to me and (b) these things cost a lot so what little I save on an amp i'll spend on furniture. Am I understanding you correctly - you're saying the Emotiva amps have a better sound than the Bryston or Krell or Classe models? In terms of pure musicality how does the Emotiva line up compare to the Bryston 9BST or the Krell KAV-250 or 500? Or is this just about price? I have no problem with the price tags on the used Krell or Bryston amps. Having a used one rebuilt with new caps and whatever else they need is still not all that expensive even if it comes to that - compared to what they cost brand new. I mean we're talking $1K versus $2K here right? I could fit the XPA-1L into my EC. I'd need 3 of them. But when I went to check them out they don't make them anymore. Everything I want is not made anymore. I wish i'd done this audio system upgrade thing a decade ago. |
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Post by knucklehead on Dec 31, 2015 1:34:34 GMT -5
I'm old school too but I've learned a few things about audio that goes against the grain of what I thought I knew. If you've never heard a good sub properly crossed over with the main L/R speakers all I can say is you'll have to hear it to believe it. 80hz is not the end.all.be.all setting for music - it works good for movie sound tracks. Experimentation is the key - find out where it sounds best to you. It may be very different than what someone else likes using the same/similar setup. To each their own.
I've been a 3 way tower guy most of my life. The Salk Song Towers are a 2 way design with two 5" woofers - they play down to 42hz + or - 3db. I've measured them playing down to 35hz down 5db. I no longer think 3 way is the cat's ass.
I designed and built 2 12" sealed subwoofers about 5 years ago with music in mind. They play down to 28hz + or - 3db - perfect for music. I bought the best drivers I could afford for them - a pair of Peerless XXLS 12" drivers. The cabinets were already made - I bought them from a company that bought out a railcar or three ready built cabinets from Miller & Kreisel when that company folded. My original intent was to buy 4 M&K drivers and use them in the push-pull that M&K designed those cabinets for. I'd be into those drivers for $800 - everyone wanted $200 or more. I changed my plans and bought the Peerless drivers. Those cabinets were a great bargain at $120 shipped each. All I had to do was eliminate some of the interior volume from the original 64L down to 48L following the recommendations of Peerless and WinISD modeling software. Some well placed pieces of 4x4 glued and screwed into the interior and I had the correct volume for the Peerless drivers in a sealed cabinet - 48 liters.
To make a long story short I ended up with a pair of 12" sealed subs that play music with an astonishing degree of accuracy. I can play the song towers full spectrum audio or cross them over at 50hz for music. Either way they are exceedingly good. The sealed subs add a bit more SPL without losing detail. For movies the crossover is 80hz and I turn on the ported ED A5-350 sub. Standard THX settings and seem to work well for movie sound tracks.
As for booming subs my Elemental Designs A5-350 15" ported sub is kind.of.sort.of boomy compared to my 12" sealed subs. Elemental Designs claimed it was 'pretty good' for music. Many buyers of the A5-350 agreed - I don't. Its good for movies and has great SPL in my listening space - it goes boom a lot!
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Post by teaman on Dec 31, 2015 1:40:15 GMT -5
No offense but just stick with what you have for now. I own Klipsch subs and they are not very good, unless you are running a RSW-15 or something big and deep. Subs should not be about thump and boom, if they are providing that then they are not set up right. In my opinion you should use a sub....a better sub. The Fusion amps, in my opinion again.... are not going to provide the punch you are looking for. Get some real amps and a better sub and you will break into back flips. If you can't work them into the room esthetics then wait until you actually have a room to use for this to set it up properly. I love Bryston amps but believe me there is going to be a very little upgrade in sound over the upper end Emotiva amps like the XPA-3, 5 or 7. I have A/B'd a Bryston 4B to my XPA-1's and XPA-2 and the upgrade is minimal. Especially when you look at the $4k price tag of the Bryston.
I run huge three way 15" tower speakers that dig very deep without the use of a sub, guess what....they sound even better with a sub. Especially when listening to movies you are going to want something powerful but musical. I really like the sound produced by Speakercraft subs. Both Speakercraft and Proficient use Elemental Designs amps and they provide deep bass for not a lot of money.
By the way as far as recapping amps and all that, if you get a Bryston you get a factory 20 year warranty which makes it more worth the money.
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Post by B-613 Command on Jan 20, 2016 9:09:55 GMT -5
FYI - I performed a little test.
The backdrop - Sonus faber Venere 3.0 fronts and center Klipsch SW-310 sub on an old JVC receiver from 1995 that outputs 120 wpc into 8 ohms - 240W into 4 ohms and 480W into 2 ohms. The bass is awesome. Backflips as you call it. The sub is configured to play from about 50Hz and down. I don't hear it often but it's there when I need it and has a clean sound to match the Sonus fabers. I love the sound. LOVE IT. I'd put it beside the 802 Diamonds on McIntosh monoblocks and ask a mixed crowd which sounds better i'd expect mixed results with me choosing my system. It really does sound that good.
I switch the old JVC for the Emo and the sound field shrinks and bass is almost non-existent. The Klipsch sub is made to go with Klipsch speakers so it has a powerful output below 50Hz but little above that so it's not going to replace my woofers in my fronts. I personally believe no sub can do that at any price tag.
My theory is that the amps in the Emo - or any HT receiver since Dolby Digital - are greatly inferior to the older (mostly stereo) receiver amps. To fix my sound I need a "real amp." If my sub sounds fine to me with the old JVC receiver why would it not sound fine to me with a quality amp using the Emo as a pre-pro? That should be a superior sound to my old receiver? Right? If it is not then something is badly wrong with modern equipment!
To test my theory I connected the unbalanced pre-outs on the Emo for the FL and FR channels into the AUX input (stereo analog) on my old receiver. I connected my fronts to the old JVC receiver. I used my Emo receiver as a pre-pro and effectively used my old JVC receiver as a stereo amp - i'm only talking about music right now (the Emo sounds great for HT). I swapped my speakers from the Emo to the old JVC and back - both using the Emo as a pre-pro - the only difference here is the amps running my fronts.
The results were night and day. The sound quality was so much better words cannot even describe it. It was like going into the local audio shop and switching between Klipsch bookshelf speakers and B&W 800 Diamonds. The sound field was wide and 3-D with voices clear and drums having punch and attack then go back to the Emo and the sound filed is not there really the sound is technically correct with no bass but has no musicality and much less clarity.
I will admit I never realized how large of an impact electronics could have on the sound. I honestly believed all gear was essentially the same electronic device (like computers) they just cost more or less and lasted longer or not. This little test really opened my eyes - ears - wow.
30 years ago you could buy a top of the line receiver and some good speakers and have an audio system that was comparable to the best in the world. This is no longer true.
I'm looking at the Krell Showcase 5 and the Lexicon LX-5. Both can be bought for $1K.
I wanted to buy a Krell KAV-250a/3 but the Krell website says the thing is 19" wide (will not fit inside my furniture). Every other amp i've considered including Krell amps are all 17" wide. That seems strange. Sucks too that would be an awesome amp for me. The Emotiva XPA-3 is another good amp for the money that doesn't fit inside my furniture.
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Post by millst on Jan 20, 2016 11:02:50 GMT -5
So you bought a cheap (~$700) subwoofer with a single 10" driver and a couple passive radiators to go with your $3500/pr Veneres, which each of has two 180mm. Of course, you think subwoofers suck and the speakers put out a lot more bass. The SW-310's output drops off massively after 30Hz.
You then come here with one idea in mind, buying a new amp, and ignore advice otherwise. You proceed to a run a test, with that one idea in mind, and lo and behold it confirms your expected result...
If two amps are level matched and NOT being driven into distortion, there will not be a massive difference in how they sound. Even audiophiles agree on that. They may say there are small differences, but not a massive night/day change.
The Fusion has decent amplification for a receiver. Perhaps, it is misconfigured or not functioning properly. Or you're driving it to really loud levels and causing it to clip.
-tm
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Post by teaman on Jan 20, 2016 11:27:56 GMT -5
There is definitely some differences between the older receivers, amps etc. I agree on that. I still own an older Technics integrated amp that I have hooked up in the garage and it kicks some serious but. It keeps up pretty closely to my Emotiva XPA-2 as far as brute power. However, that amp starts into a realm of distortion at loud listening levels and I can almost hear it soft clipping. Believe me, if you seriously want to improve your set up you should get a better sub. The sub will give you a ton of depth and improve your sound output all at the same time of taking the load off your speakers.
You don't have to listen to any of us if you choose not to, it is your set up and your money. I am just telling you I have Infinity towers with 15 inch woofers that really rock, and even they see a noticeable improvement when a sub is added. I own a Klipsch Sub-10 that I have set up in the basement and believe what you want, there is punch but a wimpy directed punch. Step up to a 12 inch or larger more powerful sub and you will instantly notice the difference of punch with your whole system. To state that the Emotiva amps are not up to par is crazy.
If you want to jump into the Lexicon, Classe, Vincent, Parasound, Bryston world....by all means do. I have nothing bad to say about those brands, they are all quality. But to say that you feel Emotiva is not right up there with them is kind of silly.
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Post by B-613 Command on Jan 21, 2016 9:45:49 GMT -5
So you bought a cheap (~$700) subwoofer with a single 10" driver and a couple passive radiators to go with your $3500/pr Veneres, which each of has two 180mm. Of course, you think subwoofers suck and the speakers put out a lot more bass. The SW-310's output drops off massively after 30Hz. You then come here with one idea in mind, buying a new amp, and ignore advice otherwise. You proceed to a run a test, with that one idea in mind, and lo and behold it confirms your expected result... If two amps are level matched and NOT being driven into distortion, there will not be a massive difference in how they sound. Even audiophiles agree on that. They may say there are small differences, but not a massive night/day change. The Fusion has decent amplification for a receiver. Perhaps, it is misconfigured or not functioning properly. Or you're driving it to really loud levels and causing it to clip. -tm I've listened to at least 4 other subwoofers in my place - some larger - and this one had the cleanest sound. I have listened to many subs including large and expensive ones in audio shops and to me all a sub can do is add more bottom end below around 50Hz and down. As it is now the sound of my system is flat all the way down to close to 20Hz. The bass is even and very high quality across all frequencies. Adding more below 50Hz is not needed. If your front speakers are worth anything at all you should not need help from a sub above 50Hz. If you do then your taste in music is very different from mine. We're talking about my system not yours. Enjoy listening to your subwoofers. I live in a condo. I am listening at very low levels. I cannot turn it up much at all without causing problems with my neighbors and my wife. Owning a subwoofer alone is a risk for me. So far i'm getting away with using a very clean sub to fill in the bottom - helps for HT. My volume knob on my sub right now is HALF volume. I could turn it up a lot louder but i'd hate that. I do not need a larger louder sub. I can get a louder sub just from turning a knob cost of zero. You are not listening to me. I LOVE the way my old audio system sounds. I do not want MORE bass. I live in a condo more bass would be a problem anyway. I do NOT want advice for my old audio system. It's perfect to me. I do not care if it is not perfect to you. What I want to achieve is to get my new audio system sounding like my old audio system. That is the objective - OK? Do not "fix" my old system it does not need fixing. The sound quality of receivers made in the last 20 years SUCK. I just performed a test and proved that I am right. Before you can argue against my conclusions explain to me this: how is it that my OLD audio system sounds fabulous to me - the bass is wonderful - with the "suck" subwoofer as you call it? Until you can explain that you're not making any sense at all to a logical person. If your theory holds any truth then I would need a better sub to get my old system to work. But I do not. Explain that and maybe i'll start listening to you. Until you can I will assume you're not listening to me you're talking about what you want in an audio system. I know what I want in an audio system and it is sitting here right now in my place. Sound-wise I have the perfect audio system. All I want to do is upgrade it to something that takes HDMI connections without breaking the awesome sound I have. That is the objective. This is not rocket science. If you kept your entire audio system the same and switched say your DVR between the cable company DVR and your TiVo DVR keeping everything else the same and the difference in sound was astronomical even a 4-year old child would understand the TiVo has a higher sound quality. I guess what you're trying to say is that what - I imagined the differences? I heard what I wanted to hear? Seriously? IF i'm understanding you correctly you're saying the only way to get any bass at all out of a system with a receiver is to add many expensive high-quality subs. Okay you may be right about that. But why would I do that and not spend that same $$$ on a quality amp? In the end the separates will sound better than the receiver. I see a huge divide in people when talking about audio. It seems like a great deal of people are focused on how loud an audio system can get. They're concerned about the QUANTITY of sound. Others - including me - are focused on the QUALITY of the sound. We do not speak the same language and we often talk in circles around things because we're both looking for a different holy grail. I think your goals in audio are different from mine. I've also noticed an even larger divide across the age gap. My generation grew up listening to stereo analog audio. Ask anyone over 40 how to get more bass out of a system and they'll tell you get speakers with larger woofers or a more powerful amp. You ask them where does the bass come from they'll point to the woofers in your fronts. Ask anyone under 35 how to get more or better bass out of a system and they'll say get a better sub. You ask them where does the bass come from and they'll point to the sub. This is because once Dolby Digital came out and receivers went from 2 channels up to 5 then to 7 and even 9 the amps inside the receivers got skimpy. They had to. With only 120V of juice from the wall sockets in American homes - usually fuses blow at 15 amps - that's only 1800W for the entire power line - every outlet in an entire room usually. So how much power can a receiver consume? The old 150 wpc that was easily doable with a stereo receiver became impractical in a 7-channel receiver. So they skimped out on the amps. The design is that the powered subwoofer will do all the heavy lifting so the receiver amps do not have to. Music evolved to have tons of deep bass in it to accommodate iPads listeners with skimpy earbuds. That fit right into the design of modern HT systems where the sub produces all the bass. So the younger generation knows that subs produce the bass and trying to get bass from your fronts is as pointless as trying to get it from your tweeters on modern HT receivers. The music they listen to masks just how bad the amps SUCK in their systems. I have listened to many HT receivers and Emo is as good as they get. But for me separates are the only thing that will sound good enough to meet the standards set by the old receiver i've been listening to for 21 years. I appreciate any input I can get don't get me wrong it's just that subs are not very welcomed in my world. |
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Post by B-613 Command on Jan 21, 2016 9:58:13 GMT -5
There is definitely some differences between the older receivers, amps etc. I agree on that. I still own an older Technics integrated amp that I have hooked up in the garage and it kicks some serious but. It keeps up pretty closely to my Emotiva XPA-2 as far as brute power. However, that amp starts into a realm of distortion at loud listening levels and I can almost hear it soft clipping. Believe me, if you seriously want to improve your set up you should get a better sub. The sub will give you a ton of depth and improve your sound output all at the same time of taking the load off your speakers. You don't have to listen to any of us if you choose not to, it is your set up and your money. I am just telling you I have Infinity towers with 15 inch woofers that really rock, and even they see a noticeable improvement when a sub is added. I own a Klipsch Sub-10 that I have set up in the basement and believe what you want, there is punch but a wimpy directed punch. Step up to a 12 inch or larger more powerful sub and you will instantly notice the difference of punch with your whole system. To state that the Emotiva amps are not up to par is crazy. If you want to jump into the Lexicon, Classe, Vincent, Parasound, Bryston world....by all means do. I have nothing bad to say about those brands, they are all quality. But to say that you feel Emotiva is not right up there with them is kind of silly. I was actually surprised by my little experiment. I was expecting a tiny difference - not the massive change that I heard. I switched it back and forth several times and checked all other settings on both devices to make sure I was doing it right - I was. The difference was astronomical. The newer equipment is pathetic. I did not say Emo was not up there with the others. I do not know enough to make that kind of a statement. In fact that's kind of what I was hoping to learn from this thread but instead it turned into a discussion about subs. That's what I hate about forums in general too often you ask a question like who makes the best burger and someone says you should eat chicken not red meat and eventually the thread becomes an argument about cholesterol medication. The Emotiva XPA-3 does not fit my furniture. Neither does the Krell KAV-250a/3 that I want. Out of the Krell Showcase or the Bryston 5BST or Lexicon LX-5 - have you heard any of those? I'm treating this Fusion 8100 as if it were a UMC-200 pre-pro. It technically is a UMC-200 with the bluetooth module and a 7-channel amp thrown in for free. I'm not going to use the BT module nor the amps but technically they were free since the Fusion costs the same as the UMC-200. |
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Post by millst on Jan 21, 2016 11:03:10 GMT -5
IF i'm understanding you correctly you're saying the only way to get any bass at all out of a system with a receiver is to add many expensive high-quality subs. Okay you may be right about that. But why would I do that and not spend that same $$$ on a quality amp? In the end the separates will sound better than the receiver. That's not what I was saying at all. I just don't think that sub is on the level of your speakers. If you're in an apartment and can't/won't play loud, then I'm sure it's more than adequate. I still don't necessarily agree with your point about the sub being only the bottom octave. A crossover point is not a brickwall. There is still significant output above that point, which makes it easier for your main speakers to play the bass you care about. As you noted, the preferred thinking these days is a sub/main combo. I don't think the thinking is all that different from ages ago. It's just that the large drivers have been moved from the mains to a separate box. There are two key reasons for this. First, easier to amplify (use multiple amps instead of one). Second, you can place the subwoofer in the optimal room position. Bass quality is heavily affected by room modes. The best place for your mains is almost never the best place for bass. -tm |
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