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Post by millst on Dec 30, 2015 11:22:56 GMT -5
It doesn't really matter which of the major OSes you run, they are all insecure "It doesn't really matter what car you drive, they all break down." Sorry, that's very naive, it doesn't work that way. Sorry, security does not equal reliability. Bad analogy. -tm |
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Post by copperpipe on Dec 30, 2015 11:33:21 GMT -5
Respectfully, what Linux has in the server market has zero relevance to this discussion, I don't care how good it is. The market-share graphic was just to show who is using what on the desktop! Let me try one more time: This was your argument, a direct quote from your post above: "It has nothing to do with the quality of the OS in particular. Rather it is linked to the market share that the OS has and is the same reason that more software is available for the PC." So you're suggesting that the huge marketshare of windows is the reason why it attracts so much attention, and therefore why it is hacked more often. Here is why you're wrong: - both windows and linux also run in the server space - in both windows and linux, the same software (kernel / userspace) is used in both server and desktop versions of the operating system (they are not different operating systems for desktop or server; it's the same software, and is more of a packaging issue, and _where_ it is being used that defines whether it is desktop or server) - in the server market, linux has > marketshare than windows - in the server market, linux is more secure than windows THEREFORE: since linux has > marketshare than windows in the server space, and linux is more secure than windows in the server space, and it's the same core operating system running in both desktop and server, marketshare is not the reason why windows (on the desktop) is less secure. The server market is very relevant to this discussion because we don't NEED to reduce this to server vs desktop. YOU are the one artificially restricting the argument to desktop usage. I'M saying that if you look at TOTAL usage, the marketshare of linux explodes, AND YET is still more secure. YOU are artificially restricting this to desktop usage so that you can pull out the ol'e "it's marketshare" argument which is totally bogus (as I've just explained). I can't point this out to you any more clearly than that. Sorry.  (I really am done here now. I will read your reply if you care to leave one, but I'm not going to continue this any further.) |
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Post by copperpipe on Dec 30, 2015 11:34:34 GMT -5
"It doesn't really matter what car you drive, they all break down." Sorry, that's very naive, it doesn't work that way. Sorry, security does not equal reliability. Bad analogy. -tm Dude you missed the point; the point was that security is a sliding range, not a single on/off state. Windows is far worse, linux is far better; they are both imperfect. |
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Post by millst on Dec 30, 2015 12:00:20 GMT -5
Sorry, security does not equal reliability. Bad analogy. -tm Dude you missed the point; the point was that security is a sliding range, not a single on/off state. Windows is far worse, linux is far better; they are both imperfect. They are in the same ballpark these days. Did you even look at the statistics I posted? Microsoft takes security much more seriously than it did 10-15 years ago. -tm |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 30, 2015 12:08:37 GMT -5
As of a few years ago - it passed the point where PhotoShop was being updated on the PC before on the Mac... and I'm pretty sure that Adobe CC gets updated at the same time for both... so all that's left that Apple arguably does better lately is video editing. (But, in their defense, I believe Apples have been getting cheaper and less proprietary.... ever since they had to give up their "special" PowerPC processor for a "plain old" Intel one....  Hate to inform you, but iPhone has been sacked by more data leaks than Microsoft Phones, Blackberries or Android phones combined. Many of them also, were aimed at a lot of high profile people too. I'd take a PC over a proprietary old-tech apple computer any day. The only application I've found Mac's tend to excel at is Photo Manipulation, other than that anything they can do, a PC can do just as well for a fraction of the price. |
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Post by Chuck Elliot on Dec 30, 2015 12:09:20 GMT -5
The reason that I point to market-share is that market-share directly relates to the number of targets available for a virus or malware writer.
The desktop is the major infection point for this illicit software.
Infection happens due to various reasons including malicious links in web-pages and e-mails and the exploitation of security holes within applications. This is compounded by the fact that most Windows user run as the original “administrator” user that was created at system build time and not as a standard user.
These infection point targets differ from OS to OS and make a virus writer target a specific flaw or weak point within a specific OS.
This too, ends my participation in this thread!
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 30, 2015 12:41:11 GMT -5
Of course market share counts..... In each segment (server or desktop) more people are going to attack the machines that are the most common. Yes, a lot of servers are Linux, and a lot of people who run servers are actually somewhat security conscious. However, as an end user, that doesn't help you - because, as a desktop operating system, Linux is complicated to use, and most of the good apps aren't available for it. And, I'm sorry guys, but Open Office is about as good as the version of Microsoft Word from 1997, and GIMP is about up there with Photoshop 8..... which makes both of them OK for some casual user type people, but not for serious users. And, yes, there are really cool super heavy duty apps out there that run on Linux, but only a few, and they tend to be very complicated and poorly supported. However, a lot of you are conflating security with privacy... and I'm also seeing a lot of meaningless numbers bandied around... If you want to be more or less safe, the you REALLY should be running an anti-virus program and a firewall, whether you use a Mac of a PC. If you think Macs are "safe", you should talk to the 800,000+ Mac users who were infected by the latest big Mac virus (most of them were probably infected because they thought they really didn't need antivirus protection on their "safe" Apple computer). Of course, a lot of this depends on what you use your computer for. If you run Photoshop on it, and don't visit a lot of websites, then you could probably get away without it (the odds of getting a bad virus are pretty slim and, if you do, just wipe the computer and reinstall Windows and Adobe). Since your data files are backed up (RIGHT?), and most types of data files can't be infected with a virus anyway, then all you lose is the time it takes to reinstall everything. There's also something that many people who are worried about "some hacker stealing their credit card information" should be aware of. The VAST majority of stolen credit card numbers are in fact stolen from the servers at your favorite online store, or at your favorite brick-and-mortar department store, or from the POS devices (cash registers) of your favorite store chain. Of course, all of the major credit card companies themselves have also been hacked. Next on the list is people who get phished into entering their information into a bogus website or in response to a bogus e-mail (and no software that exists or ever will exist can replace common sense). And, of course, we shouldn't forget all those minimum wage store clerks, waiters, and waitresses you give your card to every day. The amount of sensitive information that is stolen by hackers actually breaking into people's individual computers is way down on the list of threats. (The biggest real threat to your computer is ending up with so many rogue ads and popups that programs stop working and it starts crashing. If you're able to do your own Windows reinstall, then this is no big deal; if not, it can get expensive to have Computer Guy keep doing it for you at $150 a pop.) Privacy is another matter entirely. Windows 10 is really bad in terms of the amount of information that it reports back to big brother - and, even if you switch off everything you can, it's still pretty questionable. So, if you're really a privacy nut, then it's your enemy. However, if you like using social media, and go to bulletin boards, and buy stuff at store websites, and search on Bing and Google, then they're already tracking most of the stuff that Windows will be tracking, so you aren't losing much. It's sort of like the guy or gal who "doesn't like getting his picture taken", but doesn't realize that, every time he uses, or even walks past, an ATM, he's probably getting it taken.... unless you vow to not go outside without a ski mask, then your picture IS being taken. And, unless you religiously turn off your cell phone before you walk outside (and remove the battery), your movements are being tracked, for various reasons, and at various levels of detail, by all sorts of folks. (Did you know that many malls now track every cell phone that walks in - just to see how many people walk right and how many walk left after passing the sign in front of the door - so they can see how well the ad on the sign is working? Yeah, really - no kidding.) So, yes, a good antivirus program and firewall will help you avoid a lot of annoying headaches (and a bad one may cause a few), and you might as well turn off the most annoying privacy flaws in Windows 10. However, unless you plan to start using Tor, stop using Google and Bing, and of course public e-mail services like G-mail, and cut up all your credit cards, you really shouldn't worry too much about having a lot of privacy - because you haven't had it for years. (And, if you find this topic interesting, and aren't too prone to depression, check out a book called "Data and Goliath" by Bruce Schneier - who is arguably the foremost expert on cyber-security around (at least the foremost one who writes books). The reason that I point to market-share is that market-share directly relates to the number of targets available for a virus or malware writer. The desktop is the major infection point for this illicit software. Infection happens due to various reasons including malicious links in web-pages and e-mails and the exploitation of security holes within applications. This is compounded by the fact that most Windows user run as the original “administrator” user that was created a system build time and not as a standard user. These infection point targets differ from OS to OS and make a virus writer target a specific flaw or weak point within a specific OS. This too, ends my participation in this thread! |
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Post by Cogito on Dec 30, 2015 12:49:59 GMT -5
Windows has always been more susceptible to virus and malware attacks than MAC. It has nothing to do with the quality of the OS in particular. Rather it is linked to the market share that the OS has and is the same reason that more software is available for the PC. This is called Market-Share. Given the following statistics, what do you thing the major target will be? Market-Share 2015 (Pre Win 10)  Chuck, that is often quoted by those who don't know better, but it is not true. Yes Windows has a larger DESKTOP market share, but not SERVER (where linux is > 50%) or MOBILE or anywhere else. Last full statistic I could find was for 2014, where Linux share of the server OS market was 28.5%. In comparison, Windows had 45.7%. |
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Post by copperpipe on Dec 30, 2015 13:17:31 GMT -5
Of course market share counts..... In each segment (server or desktop) more people are going to attack the machines that are the most common. Yes, a lot of servers are Linux, and a lot of people who run servers are actually somewhat security conscious. However, as an end user, that doesn't help you - because, as a desktop operating system, Linux is complicated to use, and most of the good apps aren't available for it. And, I'm sorry guys, but Open Office is about as good as the version of Microsoft Word from 1997, and GIMP is about up there with Photoshop 8..... which makes both of them OK for some casual user type people, but not for serious users. And, yes, there are really cool super heavy duty apps out there that run on Linux, but only a few, and they tend to be very complicated and poorly supported. I wasn't going to post anymore in this thread, but these are some new points not yet mentioned (so at least we're not just arguing in circles) In what way is linux harder to use than windows? Are you saying "ease of use" when you actually mean "familiar"? Because I setup several family members with Xubuntu 15.10, one of which has never used a computer before, and they are as happy as pigs in ... , well, pig pies. So am I, because I have not had to touch their computer since (whereas before I was always cleaning up the garbage that inevitably appeared on their machines and forced it to a crawl). If my parents (who never used a computer before) can sit down in front of the computer and run firefox, thunderbird, attach their camera and download pictures etc etc., what exactly makes that "hard to use"? So once they familiarize themselves and realize it's not 100% what they've used in the past, they can use linux just as easily as windows. In fact, Xubuntu (and other distros) are actually MORE familiar to windows users (who previously used windows 7 or older version) than the boondoggle that is windows 8+. It's not hard to click on a menu and browse to your application that you want... beyond that, there are icons, a traditional desktop etc etc. What makes linux hard to use? There are configuration utilities (GUI) that customize everything, right from simple things like changing your background to more advanced things like setting up firewall rules or multi-monitor support. I really cannot understand the "hard to use" argument. (EDIT: And there is also a nice "app store", called Synaptic (on debian based distros) which conveniently lists, downloads, and installs every possibly application you can install on linux. No hunting in google for the right website (and by accident clicking the wrong link and installing malware) This was years before the iphone copied that feature). As for GIMP / Photoshop and OpenOffice / MS Office, you are definitely correct that those 2 specific apps (gimp and openoffice) are less featured than their peers. But who actually _needs_ MS Office these days? Most people (home owners, kids in school, even a lot of people in business settings) can get away with Google Apps, never mind even more powerful software like openoffice. (Actually we use LibreOffice nowadays, openoffice was mismanaged and libreoffice was forked and that's where the new development seems to be happening). I'm not a linux zealot by any means, "the best tool for the job" is sometimes MS Office for those few features you absolutely require, at that point you just run windows. Same thing with accounting software (quickbooks, simply accounting), kind of need windows (or mac osx) for that. My view is that most people can (and should) run linux at home, in the office, and when you absolutely need that clunky accounting package then you run windows (preferably in a virtual machine on top of linux! ) Just last week I plug in a videocamera to my linux machine (logitech quickcam zoom), automatically working (literally) 3 seconds after plugging it in. No drivers to install. On windows, it doesn't even work past windows vista because logitech won't give you the drivers, they want you to buy a new device. It works on windows 7 if you know how to edit the driver configuration file, so it's not a matter of windows incompatibility; they just don't WANT to support you on windows 7. This kind of BS is another advantage of linux. No 200 meg installation drivers (samsung laser printer, are you kidding me??) etc. Linux is just so clean and powerful. The simple truth of the matter is; MOST people (at home, but even in the office a lot of time) can get by with a tablet these days. If they want a traditional computer, then these people are better off running linux than windows. I will not argue the app availability issue, that is a negative when considering linux. But in every other metric (performance, usability (past windows 7), security, privacy), linux wins. (We won't get into more advanced features of linux, like availabilty of ZFS (and incremental backups of TB's of data that takes only 2 minutes), software like rsync, ffmpeg, openssh, etc etc. To a power user, linux is a treasure.) |
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Post by copperpipe on Dec 30, 2015 13:28:28 GMT -5
Chuck, that is often quoted by those who don't know better, but it is not true. Yes Windows has a larger DESKTOP market share, but not SERVER (where linux is > 50%) or MOBILE or anywhere else. Last full statistic I could find was for 2014, where Linux share of the server OS market was 28.5%. In comparison, Windows had 45.7%. Ah, statisitcs, what fun: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systemsClearly, there are differences on how to measure usage, and differences on the numbers. What is also clear, is that rather than arguing about percentage points, the point of my argument was that linux is huge in the server space and is still secure. Whether it's 35% or 70% makes no difference to my point; it is a massive target, with a huge footprint on the internet, just like windows. (Or do you think 30% usage is not a juicy enough target for hackers, even though they're used in banks, super computers, and other high value companies?) I'm not going to argue percentage points because nobody can agree on them and everybody measures (and gets) different numbers. |
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Post by lionear on Dec 30, 2015 14:26:20 GMT -5
As far as operating systems go, there's TAILS. Apparently, just visiting the TAILS site will lead to the NSA and/or FBI opening a file on you (or adding to the file they already have on you). But then again, if everyone visits the site, then the value of that nugget of info goes down. boingboing.net/2014/04/30/tails-snowdens-favorite-ano.htmlThis might stop commercial companies from tracking you via "open" mechanisms. (But it won't stop the NSA, FBI or the bad guys.) |
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Post by copperpipe on Dec 30, 2015 14:56:40 GMT -5
lionear, very interesting. Almost scared to google it ha ha. Actually, my own (unsupported) hypotheses on this is that the NSA has a file on everyone already. They probably collect everything and store it, even encrypted communication. They might not yet be able to read and analyze all that data, but the future will bring quantum computing (if they don't already use it) and that is a whole different ball game. All our current encryption algorithms are vulnerable to that kind of computing power. And much as I love and praise linux, I'm open to the opinions of people who suggest they (NSA) are already inside my linux machine (and also of course windows, plus osx). But the NSA is the NSA, all bets are off there; if we're talking script kiddies, bot nets, or some Ivan in Russia then linux is still the more secure option.
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Post by The History Kid on Dec 30, 2015 15:10:07 GMT -5
As of a few years ago - it passed the point where PhotoShop was being updated on the PC before on the Mac... and I'm pretty sure that Adobe CC gets updated at the same time for both... so all that's left that Apple arguably does better lately is video editing. (But, in their defense, I believe Apples have been getting cheaper and less proprietary.... ever since they had to give up their "special" PowerPC processor for a "plain old" Intel one.... Good info to know, Keith. It has been some time since I've had to use a Mac (at my old school), and the last I had heard was that their edge was on image editing because of Adobe's favorability. Nice to hear that's changed. (Of course, when I was using photo editing software - I was making anthrophotos that required processing power and memory only a PC could generate.) |
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Post by yves on Dec 30, 2015 15:44:18 GMT -5
Since your data files are backed up (RIGHT?), and most types of data files can't be infected with a virus anyway, then all you lose is the time it takes to reinstall everything. You don't actually even have to lose the time it takes to reinstall everything if you don't want to. Thanks to the bootable CD of Acronis True Image 2016 and an image file that I keep stored on a (safely unplugged) 3.5" 7200 rpm USB 3.0 external harddrive I could have everything up and running normally again in only about 20 minutes or so. |
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Post by yves on Dec 30, 2015 16:05:57 GMT -5
In fact, Xubuntu (and other distros) are actually MORE familiar to windows users (who previously used windows 7 or older version) than the boondoggle that is windows 8+. After you've installed Classic Shell, Windows 8.1 is virtually the same as Windows 7 in terms of user familiarity, but Windows 8.1 is more stable, more secure, and in some areas slightly more responsive compared to Windows 7, whereas in terms of newly added useful features IMO the difference is very minor. If you think that someone is forcing you to use metro UI, then obviously you don't know anything much about Windows 8 / 8.1 at all, which would then immediately help to explain the *real* reason why you prefer to use Linux.  |
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 30, 2015 16:20:44 GMT -5
Not having read the whole thread...
I'm sure someone has said it previously, but the majority of professional "hacking" is dedicated to business, industrial, and military targets. That's where the value lies. Why would anyone spend time to hack your home computer? All they'd get is useless family photos & correspondence. But steal the entire employee database of the U.S. Government, and you've got info worth millions (billions? trillions?) to folks.
The typical computer virus doesn't steal information - it just corrupts the computer & causes irritation. Kids write viri to prove to their pals that they can.
Professional grade hacking is something the home user need not fret about.
And by the way, the folks responsible for losing our government's employee data should be slowly tortured to death on live TV - maybe their parents, children, and pets too. They deserve no less. And if it can be determined who did the hacking, a few nukes tossed their way would not be out of line. That's the magnitude of the damage caused by that hacking job.
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Post by copperpipe on Dec 30, 2015 16:28:50 GMT -5
In fact, Xubuntu (and other distros) are actually MORE familiar to windows users (who previously used windows 7 or older version) than the boondoggle that is windows 8+. After you've installed Classic Shell, Windows 8.1 is virtually the same as Windows 7 in terms of user familiarity, but Windows 8.1 is more stable, more secure, and in some areas slightly more responsive compared to Windows 7, whereas in terms of newly added useful features IMO the difference is very minor. If you think that someone is forcing you to use metro UI, then obviously you don't know anything much about Windows 8 / 8.1 at all, which would then immediately help to explain the *real* reason why you prefer to use Linux. Are you actually expecting a serious response? Sorry, not biting |
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Post by garbulky on Dec 30, 2015 16:37:11 GMT -5
Not at all. A regular person could easily have their credit cards and their identity stolen. I've known several people where this has happened and it happens from hacking. They figure out your email use your passwords to access your bank account. Use the credit cards to buy stuff. Etc etc. So it's a real thing. Happened to my MIL, my BIL and at least three of my friends. Hacking has come a long way since it was just bored people doing stuff just to do stuff.
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Post by yves on Dec 30, 2015 16:44:28 GMT -5
After you've installed Classic Shell, Windows 8.1 is virtually the same as Windows 7 in terms of user familiarity, but Windows 8.1 is more stable, more secure, and in some areas slightly more responsive compared to Windows 7, whereas in terms of newly added useful features IMO the difference is very minor. If you think that someone is forcing you to use metro UI, then obviously you don't know anything much about Windows 8 / 8.1 at all, which would then immediately help to explain the *real* reason why you prefer to use Linux. Are you actually expecting a serious response? Sorry, not biting No, I'm actually expecting a nonsensical response.  |
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 30, 2015 17:28:49 GMT -5
Nonsensical responses - I resemble that remark!  Thanks for the update garbulky - Again - I'm behind the times... |
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