accuracy or ear satisfaction?

[Boomzilla]

Feb 12, 2016 14:30:22 GMT -5 bootman said:

...Yet if you measure something I can come close to replicating it then make up my own mind if it sounds good to me or not.

I have to call BS on this one, bootman - There are too many variables to measure. Unless we measure the same system in the same room with the same furniture, etc. you'll NEVER get the same measurements. Not even close. The same speakers in one room can sound COMPLETELY differently than how they sound in another.

Electronics, maybe. But sound, Uh-uh. Not going to happen.

Now if we take the venue out of the equation, we can compare apples to apples. If I say that I like the way that a specific CD of Jimi Hendrix's guitar sounds through my Oppo into my Koss Porta-Pro headphones, then you CAN duplicate every aspect of the chain. You may not like the way the guitar sounds with that rig, but at least we have the same experience to compare.

But if I say that I like that same recording through some Tekton Lore speakers in my room, there's no way for you to duplicate that specific experience. You don't have my room. And "coming close" to replicating anyone else's listening experience probably is highly questionable too.

So I've just said that every loudspeaker review ever written is garbage! Not a good conclusion for a part-time audio journalist... But "the sound of a speaker" is absolutely inseparable from the "sound of the speaker in a specific room."

Boom

[klinemj]

I would like my system to be as neutral as possible so I am best hearing what was intended (which may include effects of many type, including the room and post-production trickery). But, a key part of neutral to me is clarity... Meaning each sound can be distinctly heard vs. blend in as noise with something else.

Mark

[bootman]

You can minimize the room a bit if you listen near field with speakers but I cannot disagree with you regarding speakers in a room.
After all they are the largest order of magnitude in the audio chain.

But Boomzilla, you have talked about in the past the audible differences in DACs, Amps, AVRs, etc just as much as speakers. (and with just as much conviction. )

So if you really want to review speakers try near field.
BTW this is why I prefer cans over speakers for music.
The room is in my head.

[audiobill]

Easy for me, I trust my ears more than specs, though on occasion they're vaguely interesting.

As a musician as well as an electronics tech for decades, I do understand both. Well.

And agree with Boom, the speaker and room are in fact one component.

[Gary Cook]

"Accuracy or ear satisfaction" what's this "or" business?  If it's not accurate then I'm most unlikely to be satisfied.

Cheers
Gary 

[audiobill]

Gary, how do you decide?

[Gary Cook]

Feb 12, 2016 18:06:43 GMT -5 audiobill said:

Gary, how do you decide?

Accuracy always wins and I have a handful of test tracks (vinyl, CD, SACD and streamed) that I use. I always have Australian made speakers so I can test them in my room for whatever time necessary to come to a conclusion. I'm very speaker sensitive and I keep them I long time. Similarly amps, they're a decades decision. Other gear moves more quickly.

Cheers
Gary

[audiobill]

I see.

[KeithL]

I agree with you 100% there.

Too many people seem to think that, for some odd reason, what you hear and what you measure are different... but they aren't.

Things accelerate towards the center of mass of the Earth at 32 feet-per-second-per-second due to gravity. The fact that a shot putter, or an archer, or a kid tossing bricks off a building, may experience the phenomenon differently does NOT mean that, somehow, magically, for them, "gravity is different". It's still exactly the same... it's just that they're LOOKING at it differently. And, likewise, even a bird and a helium balloon are equally affected by gravity, and the fact that they can fly makes perfect sense IF YOU UNDERSTAND ALL THE FACTORS INVOLVED.

Measurements are simply one way of looking at something... and, as that, they are absolutely 100% accurate...

I can honestly say that I have owned literally about a hundred amplifiers, probably two dozen DACs, and a few dozen pairs of speakers.... and I can say with perfect confidence that not a single one of them ever managed to somehow sound "different that its measurements". Now, that's not to say that I haven't had quite a few situations where I expected one thing or another BASED ON MY INTERPRETATION OF THE MEASUREMENTS, and ended up being surprised. However, in every single one of those cases, it was simply that MY INTERPRETATION OF THE MEASUREMENTS was wrong, or imperfect, or incomplete. 

The problems people have are the result of faulty UNDERSTANDING of what the measurements MEAN... and it really is that simple. For example, if one day you hear an amplifier that produces lots of distortion, and you decide that it sounds better than one that has much lower distortion, that DOESN'T mean that "the numbers were wrong", and it also doesn't mean that "all those people who say that how good an amplifier sounds depends on its distortion measurements" were wrong, or that you should "forget the numbers and trust your ears".

All it really means is that the measurements of that particular type of distortion, which may correlate really well for someone else with what they hear, don't correlate well for you. Maybe, for you, frequency response matters a lot, and distortion doesn't, or transient response matters a lot, but you don't notice the frequency response; or, perhaps, you even LIKE higher levels of distortion. The whole point, however, is that ONCE YOU DO FIGURE OUT WHICH FACTORS MATTER TO YOU, being able to correlate which measurements tell YOU what YOU expect to hear will make your life a lot easier - because then you'll be able to use those numbers to help which devices are even worth listening to. (Face it, there are way too many amplifiers and speakers for you or I to ever hear even a small percentage of them; if you can't use measurements to narrow down which ones to listen to, then what ARE you going to use?)

And, for the record, I personally happen to agree with Gary.... I generally find that, to me, the audio equipment that is the most accurate also IS the most pleasant to me....
(But it's MUCH more important for you to figure out what works for you than for you to agree with me.)

Feb 12, 2016 18:02:37 GMT -5 Gary Cook said:

"Accuracy or ear satisfaction" what's this "or" business?  If it's not accurate then I'm most unlikely to be satisfied.

Cheers
Gary 

[audiobill]

Your big assumption, Keith, is that you've got a complete set of measurements .

With all due respect.

[Boomzilla]

Well... An example from my own heart - The most magnificent sound reproduction I've ever heard was in a REALLY large room with a good set of electronics (don't remember what) driving a pair of Klipschorns. It wasn't the most accurate sound I've ever heard - that award might have to go to a pair of stacked electrostatic panels that I also heard years ago. But given a choice between living with the well-set-up electrostats and the equally well-set-up K-Horns, I'd take the latter in a heartbeat. Music of the spheres, indeed!

So the conclusion is that I will accept deviations from accuracy (reluctantly) in order to be moved by the music. Passion über alles!

[audiobill]

Ultimately, our ears are a highly developed test instrument that must be satisified, or we just continue spinning components in search of sonic nirvana.

Trust them!

[Boomzilla]

So let's ask the question: How much does the room affect the sound of speakers. Throwing out, for the moment, ridiculous pairings such as Klipschorns in a closet or bookshelf speakers in a cathedral, the "sound" of speakers obviously IS recognizable (mostly) regardless of the room where the speakers are used. So how much of the "speaker sound" and how much of the "room sound" do we actually hear?

This isn't a simple "How much direct sound vs. how much reflected" question, either. If only it was that simple! The speaker's dispersion pattern has a LOT to do with how it sounds in a room. A speaker with di-pole or bi-pole radiation has LOTS more room dependance than another designed for narrow dispersion in the direction of the listener only. Vertical dispersion has a lot to do with floor & ceiling reflections.

So let's throw out a SWAG (professional engineering term): I'll say 70% speaker and 30% listening room. If your room is not treated for slap echo, I'd say 60% speaker & 40% room. But if your room is not treated for slap echo and ALSO has bass problems, then it's probably 40% speaker & 60% room.

Those of you who have worked in professional sound reinforcement may be able to hone these estimates?

Boom

[audiobill]

Speaker and room are one component, and any new speaker must be auditioned in your room.

[Boomzilla]

Although an audition in your own room is best, the majority don't have that option. They must, therefore, rely on written reviews for guidance. Reviews can describe some of the speakers' characteristics, but how much that the reviewer heard is speaker and how much is room?

[audiobill]

Boom, that's my point.

High risk buying speakers without in room audition IMO.

[novisnick]

Feb 12, 2016 20:40:49 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Although an audition in your own room is best, the majority don't have that option. They must, therefore, rely on written reviews for guidance. Reviews can describe some of the speakers' characteristics, but how much that the reviewer heard is speaker and how much is room?

True

[cgolf]

Like any hobby, there are an infinite (or at least a bunch more than any of us will ever be able to try) combinations of speakers, amps, processers, DACs, pre-pros, etc. to choose from. Add the room, the treatments, our ears & head, and you have quite a combination of factors to impact the sound!! Yes, some combos obviously sound better than others but where does that line cross into the ears and head and out of the equipment??

That is what makes this so much fun, so challenging and so expensive....

[lionear]

Just go with what sounds good to you.... unless you're a masochist.

[brutiarti]

First identify the sound of your liking, neutral, forward or laid back. Then pick speakers accordingly if you have to guess and no option for audition.