KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Apr 12, 2016 11:16:34 GMT -5
I don't think I would exactly agree with how you phrased it. HDR10 is an optional feature in HDMI 2.0 (this means that HDMI 2.0 spells out how HDR10 works, and HDR10 is "part of the standard", but HDMI 2.0 devices may choose to include it or not). Dolby Vision is a proprietary standard being offered by Dolby. In principle, Dolby Vision is "a superset" of HDR10 (anything that supports Dolby Vision should be able to play HDR10; the reverse is not necessarily - or probably - true). (Note that Dolby Vision also includes OTHER things besides HDR...) There are also other varieties of HDR (Phillips has one that is not at all widely supported). The one thing that seems to be (deliberately) confusing is that HDR does NOT "highlight and create greater contrast"; it's more accurate to say that it ALLOWS greater contrast to be displayed IF THE CONTENT YOU'RE PLAYING CONTAINS IT.
HDR allows you to record and view content that contains a lot of contrast without having to compress it; it does NOT magically improve content that doesn't have a lot of contrast to begin with. The other thing to note is that what you get with HDR is dependent on the display and its capabilities. HDR itself may be able to deliver "40 times greater brightness" - but, if the panel on your TV has a top brightness that's 4x higher than my non-HDR set, then you're only going to get that much brightness. (And, if you look at the top brightness limit on many new HDR sets, you'll find that they're only 4x to 5x brighter than equivalent non-HDR sets - at least so far.) As you've noted, since HDR offers a wider range of contrast, even without extra brightness, it should also allow better shadow detail (again, depending on the capabilities of the TV itself). And, because of the color space used, and the contrast range, it should also allow better saturation in certain colors, and a wider overall color gamut. (Again, remember that it only ALLOWS you to see these if your content contains them; it does not add them to content, or improve content that has poor dynamic range to begin with.) Also note that Dolby Vision does not "have complete control of the TV" - it's simply a standard for picture delivery. (So, just as I'm sure there are cheap AVRs that support Dolby TrueHD - but don't sound very good, and not all HD TVs get a great picture, I'm sure there will also be both HDR and Dolby Vision TVs that don't look especially great.) The wording that I've seen for the HDR spec does contain some wording that suggests that "the TV must support the decoding, and do its best to render it as intended, WITHIN THE LIMITATIONS OF ITS HARDWARE". HDR and Dolby Vision certainly have the POTENTIAL to offer somewhat better contrast and color... beyond that, we'll have to wait and see. (However, as I've noted already, if you actually consider 4k without HDR to be "obsolete", then 4k has the dubious distinction of being the first format that was obsolete before the first disc was ever available for purchase.) I am no expert on the HDR subject but from what I have been reading HDR10 is the wild wild west in comparison to Dobly Vision which is a strict and closed ecosystem designed to give very specific results by having complete control of the TV . The intent of HDR is not to brighten the overall screen, rather to highlight and create greater contrast between objects displayed on the screen. There are plenty of articles on the web to explain how it is all supposed to work and I don't claim to understand al of it. What I worry about is that we may not be too far away from yet another HDMI standard that will once again cause electronics companies like Emotiva no end of grief. Of course this is passed along to us poor saps , who are attempting to make their equipment last more than a year. It is nothing more than forced obsolescence, truly a shame.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Apr 12, 2016 11:30:52 GMT -5
I should make something clear - lest we all despair.
Even though we may all complain when standards change - and then change again, and everything seems to become obsolete before the plastic smell even dissipates on our latest purchase, and the entire A/V industry starts to look like a giant conspiracy to sell merchandise, we should always remember that nobody benefits when a standard fails to be adopted, or when compatibility issues render a product or a technology unusable. Back when Blu-Ray discs first appeared, some folks in the know were horrified to learn that it would actually be possible to manufacture a totally standard-compliant Blu-Ray disc that wouldn't play on a certain player which was also standard-compliant. (A Blu-Ray disc can be authored so as to require features that are in fact OPTIONAL in a player that meets the standards.) However, by and large, this has NOT happened. While companies may want to encourage you to buy a new 4k HDR set to replace your last-year's 4k model, they're not foolish enough to not make sure that the disk they want to sell this year will in fact play on most of the sets people have, and that most of the sets they hope to sell this year will play (and look good) with last year's discs.
Therefore, the 4k disc you buy in six months will almost certainly play on the 4k player you buy today, and on the 4k TV that you bought last year, as well as next year's model. And the HDR features on each will "sort themselves out" so it still works OK. The manufacturers of both disc players and TV sets are going to do their best to provide "compatibility modes" and "backwards compatibility" to make sure that happens. (Just as you'll notice that your CDs and DVDs play just fine on your Blu-Ray player - and, even though they may not look as good as a Blu-Ray disc, they probably still look a bit better than they did on your old DVD player.)
(It's just that, perhaps, the true "bleeding edge" has gotten a wee tiny bit sharper...)
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hemster
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Post by hemster on Apr 12, 2016 11:36:30 GMT -5
That's the thing about standards... there are so many to choose from! Their rate of change has gotten faster and faster over time. That "bleeding edge" keeps getting sharper and sharper... will it disappear altogether? Not anytime soon.
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Post by jmilton on Apr 12, 2016 13:09:26 GMT -5
With HDR comes WCG, they co-exist. HDR 10 is 10 bit and static. It is applied to the whole film. DV is dynamic. It can change from frame to frame. It supports up to 12 bits. Reviewers usually say in a side by side, DV is superior to HDR10. Again, wide color gamut is only activated when the HDR is active. The key for first time buyers is to wait for a UHDTV that supports both. Like the Vizio P series. (Mine arrives Saturday )
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Post by ottaone on Apr 12, 2016 21:38:22 GMT -5
^Lucky you but I thought only the Vizio Reference has the HDR (so far).
MDW wants me to put a deposit on the Tesla Model 3. So my 4K budget is now down by another $1K.:-)
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Apr 13, 2016 5:41:43 GMT -5
^Lucky you but I thought only the Vizio Reference has the HDR (so far). MDW wants me to put a deposit on the Tesla Model 3. So my 4K budget is now down by another $1K.:-) The new P series does HDR and WCG. It does not have a built in ATSC tuner which I don't like. They are trying to save a couple bucks. It can't be called a TV. It's a display or monitor. HDR and WCG is available on some 2015 sets also including SUHD Samsungs to varying degrees.
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Post by cwt on Apr 13, 2016 7:16:21 GMT -5
Reviewers usually say in a side by side, DV is superior to HDR10. Again, wide color gamut is only activated when the HDR is active. The key for first time buyers is to wait for a UHDTV that supports both. Like the Vizio P series. (Mine arrives Saturday ) Nice tv ; for us 3d lovers theres the new LG uhd oled with dolby vision and hdr10 as well When oppo release their uhd bd player with dolby vision metadata passthrough ? thats all thats needed considering none of the 3 uhd players so far can do better than hdr10
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Post by jmilton on Apr 13, 2016 7:30:34 GMT -5
I may get a $35 tuner from Amazon if OTA becomes important. Vizio put the money into the picture.
Now, where are all of those UHD Blu-ray players?
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Post by qdtjni on Apr 13, 2016 7:41:22 GMT -5
Now, where are all of those UHD Blu-ray players? I was expecting delivery yesterday but delivery was postponed yet again. New ETA is 9-10 days, I won't hold my breath....
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Apr 13, 2016 8:52:53 GMT -5
I may get a $35 tuner from Amazon if OTA becomes important. Vizio put the money into the picture. Now, where are all of those UHD Blu-ray players? OTA is very important to me. I have a Winegard antenna on the roof and have had one for thirty years. My understanding is that it's only a few dollars for a manufacturer to put an ATSC tuner in. I do understand Vizio's stance that the percentage of people using OTA is low so they decided to take them out. I think it's more of a bottom line savings on their part. If you can save say $5 per set over millions..... I don't think it has anything to do with putting the money into a better picture. I don't like it. I know you can buy an external tuner, but that's not the point.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Apr 13, 2016 10:43:56 GMT -5
I don't like it. I know you can buy an external tuner, but that's not the point. I used to like that my Dish DVR had a built in OTA tuner, it also allowed me to record a third video stream using that input. When they released the Hopper/Joey they dropped the OTA and I miss it. I generally prefer having my sources go through the XMC-1 so I probably wouldn't miss the OTA tuner in the 'Monitor'. Wait ... I thought I'd check out the tuner jmilton mentioned on Amazon and see there's a USB add on OTA tuner for the Hopper ... Never mind!
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Apr 13, 2016 11:28:02 GMT -5
Oppo is well known for compatibility with whatever content is available - so I'm sure their new player will support every standard that's current when it's released. (It's also possible that they'll include the ability to convert content for backwards compatibility - for example to convert some of the HDR meta-data for use with non-HDR sets rather than simply discard it.) The last I heard, Oppo was saying their new player would be available somewhere near year-end (2016). Clearly they're waiting to see which standards and features are still there after the 4k dust settles. Reviewers usually say in a side by side, DV is superior to HDR10. Again, wide color gamut is only activated when the HDR is active. The key for first time buyers is to wait for a UHDTV that supports both. Like the Vizio P series. (Mine arrives Saturday ) Nice tv ; for us 3d lovers theres the new LG uhd oled with dolby vision and hdr10 as well When oppo release their uhd bd player with dolby vision metadata passthrough ? thats all thats needed considering none of the 3 uhd players so far can do better than hdr10
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Post by rogersch on Apr 13, 2016 12:38:02 GMT -5
With HDR comes WCG, they co-exist. HDR 10 is 10 bit and static. It is applied to the whole film. DV is dynamic. It can change from frame to frame. It supports up to 12 bits. Reviewers usually say in a side by side, DV is superior to HDR10. Again, wide color gamut is only activated when the HDR is active. The key for first time buyers is to wait for a UHDTV that supports both. Like the Vizio P series. (Mine arrives Saturday ) It is really a pity that Vizio is not on sale in Europe (Netherlands) otherwise I would have bought one right now. The P55-C1 only for $1299 with a 6 inch Android remote? Great!
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Post by jmilton on Apr 13, 2016 12:59:44 GMT -5
Perhaps I'll post my initial impressions here for everyone. I have a 3 day weekend (Mon = Patriot's Day in Boston) and have 4K Netflix. Marco Polo is now in HDR/DV. I hope to be bleary-eyed by Tuesday.
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Post by rogersch on Apr 13, 2016 14:05:13 GMT -5
Perhaps I'll post my initial impressions here for everyone. I have a 3 day weekend (Mon = Patriot's Day in Boston) and have 4K Netflix. Marco Polo is now in HDR/DV. I hope to be bleary-eyed by Tuesday. Yes please....
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Post by petew on Apr 13, 2016 20:25:35 GMT -5
Regarding Vizio "displays" without built in tuner, I'll bet it frees them from tons of useless government red tape and interference to delete the tuner. That probably saves far more expense then the actual cost of the hardware. And don't get me started on how Energy Star has hosed the window industry by forcing manufacturers to chase meaningless performance numbers instead of making improvements to the products that matter in the real world.
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Post by cwt on Apr 14, 2016 1:52:15 GMT -5
Oppo is well known for compatibility with whatever content is available - so I'm sure their new player will support every standard that's current when it's released. (It's also possible that they'll include the ability to convert content for backwards compatibility - for example to convert some of the HDR meta-data for use with non-HDR sets rather than simply discard it.) That would be nice; theres some early uhd panels that may accept 10bit but not possibly HDR [ or have a lower nit rating for HDR ] I understand . If oppo comes good with the mooted UHD file copy system thats a no1 priority for me :)Not a big choice down here in Aus; the philips is US only and I wonder why panasonic included a multichannel analog stage especially when most would want a transport these days
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Apr 14, 2016 10:30:13 GMT -5
Once you get past all the hype, the real benefit you're going to get from HDR will depend on a lot of things. For example, I have a 2015 Samsung non-HDR 4k model. At its brightest, it gets quite as bright as I want it to, so extra capabilities in that direction wouldn't matter much to me. Likewise, it's an LCD panel (with LED zone illumination). This means that it's black level performance, while plenty good enough for me, is almost certainly limited by the panel itself. Therefore, as a compatibility issue, HDR would be nice, but I doubt that my TV would deliver better dynamic range playing an HDR picture than a non-HDR one. It won't get any brighter; it won't deliver any better black detail; therefore, it simply isn't physically (electrically) capable of better "dynamic range". (And since, if you read reviews, you'll note that most current TV models aren't able to deliver a picture that even reaches the limits of high-quality non-HDR content, it's doubtful that they would be able to show any differences that were present in an HDR picture.) Also note that video services like Amazon prime will cheerfully play HDR 4k videos on my non-HDR TV - and I'm sure all the new disc players will as well. Note that HDR also makes possible a wider color gamut, and finer color gradations - which means less banding on scenes like sunsets where the colors shade slowly from one into another. However, you're only going to see all that if the picture was filmed at very high quality to begin with, and really well edited, and then if it doesn't get squeezed out by the compression used by your local streaming service - or by the disc itself (remember that even Blu-Ray discs, and now 4k discs, are compressed). It will be interesting to see how many movies are filmed and produced in such a way that they truly take advantage of all the benefits of this (or any) new technology. (To be brutally honest, things like color banding tend to be obvious on carefully selected demos, but not so obvious on actual stuff you watch.) The real key to the PRACTICAL value of any new technology is usually to ignore the details. The best quality DVD I've ever seen looked better than most Blu-Ray discs I've bought lately. However, that doesn't really matter, because the average Blu-Ray looks a lot better than the average DVD. Likewise, I'm sure that next year's top of the line OLED 4k HDR TV will be able to deliver a better picture than last year's LCD 4k non-HDR one. The reality is that it doesn't matter whether that's BECAUSE it's OLED, or because it's HDR, or both, or neither. (I'll also bet that, five years from now, you'll be able to buy a cheap 4k OLED HDR TV that gets a worse picture than this years best LCD model.) As far as I'm concerned, at the moment the biggest question is how many movies we're going to see in the next year or two that look any better in 4k than in HD, and how many, if any, of them will look better in HDR. (And, remember, if the disc they're selling is HDR, it still might look better on a good non-HDR monitor than on a bad HDR one.) As for Panasonic's decision..... Well, Samsung has already started selling a model for $400 that is a perfectly adequate transport. Once Panasonic decided to introduce their first model at over twice that price, they had to include some "high end features" to justify that price point, right? (I would classify that as a marketing decision. I would also say that a similar decision has proven profitable for Oppo - with the Oppo 105 - so it isn't without precedent.) Oppo is well known for compatibility with whatever content is available - so I'm sure their new player will support every standard that's current when it's released. (It's also possible that they'll include the ability to convert content for backwards compatibility - for example to convert some of the HDR meta-data for use with non-HDR sets rather than simply discard it.) That would be nice; theres some early uhd panels that may accept 10bit but not possibly HDR [ or have a lower nit rating for HDR ] I understand . If oppo comes good with the mooted UHD file copy system thats a no1 priority for me :)Not a big choice down here in Aus; the philips is US only and I wonder why panasonic included a multichannel analog stage especially when most would want a transport these days
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Post by cwt on Apr 14, 2016 13:20:21 GMT -5
You have firmed up what to get for my next secondary tv Keith ; ime not eager to have to apply the new firmware to my jvc7000 just so the samsung uhd player plays nice with its 4k/60 splash screen bandwidth ;but hoping any bugs are sorted out by the time of its release down here [ I read it has a mediatek chipset ala oppo so it could be a good 1st gen player] . Hopefully the new lower line 4k LG oleds will see last years 4k oleds drop in price on runout [ even though they dont have dolby vision they still list HDR of some description ; contrast is whats important anyway to me ]
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Apr 14, 2016 13:50:41 GMT -5
You have firmed up what to get for my next secondary tv Keith ; ime not eager to have to apply the new firmware to my jvc7000 just so the samsung uhd player plays nice with its 4k/60 splash screen bandwidth ;but hoping any bugs are sorted out by the time of its release down here [ I read it has a mediatek chipset ala oppo so it could be a good 1st gen player] . Hopefully the new lower line 4k LG oleds will see last years 4k oleds drop in price on runout [ even though they dont have dolby vision they still list HDR of some description ; contrast is whats important anyway to me ] The reason it is chocking is because for whatever stupid reason the player is outputting at 12-bit 4:2:2 vs 10-bit 4:2:0 which is what every single 4k Bluray is at and thus giving fits to "lesser" 4k displays (most of them out today without HDMI2.0a 18G ports) So much for backward compatibility. ...oh wait the new ones they sell are ok.
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