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Post by Gary Cook on Jun 8, 2016 0:03:58 GMT -5
Amount of damping needed is VERY design dependent. It is not Always a 'mo-betta situation. But is it ever a 'mo-worse situation? Cheers Gary
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Post by leonski on Jun 8, 2016 1:22:07 GMT -5
Yes, Some speakers are designed for a damping factor of 5 or less. Some even BELOW 1. (resistance of amp greater than speaker) www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_cs_amps.pdfAn example of such thought. And finally, the Audioholics article, written for the non-technical types without ALL the math that could be added. Just skip to the conclusion, if you wish. www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/damping-factor-effects-on-system-responseThe article linked uses a 'critically damped' speaker of Qt =.707, but I wonder what would happen with a speaker much more commonly available which has a Qt of somewhere north of 1.1 This is used to provide the Illusion of better bass. Some people find a critically damped woofer to not sound right.
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Jun 8, 2016 15:15:34 GMT -5
We're kind of faced with a dilemma.... On the one hand, we want to provide our customers with all the information that's relevant.... But, on the other hand, we have to compete with other companies who may not be quite as forthcoming or as honest.... (And we're also trying more lately to appeal to new customers - the sort who may only read that first page.....) The reality is that most of our competitors cheerfully rate their amplifiers with only one or two channels driven. And so, since some casual shoppers may not read past that first page, we put the ratings on that page that are comparable to the way our competitors rate their amps. Then, when you read on to the actual Specs, you can see all the ratings - including "two channels driven" and "all channels driven". (But it shouldn't be too confusing - since "110 watts" is how most of our competitors would rate that amp - with no further explanation given.) And from the list of amplifiers page : 7-Channel Power Amplfier 7 x 110 Watts into 8 ohms 5-Channel Power Amplfier 5 x 110 Watts into 8 ohms In fact one of the first Posts regarding BasX on a big german Forum was about this - 7 x 110 Watts shown on the first page which are in fact "only" 7 x 80. I would rethink the Statement on the first page since it causes confusion. Takes 2 minutes to Change - just a friendly Suggestion.
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Post by bolle on Jun 8, 2016 15:59:25 GMT -5
I think we had this Topic before, also with Big Dan involved (british Understatement Approach etc.). For me the way the specs are presented are not a problem, I just wanted to Forward you that Feedback since I don´t think you read German hifi Forums and the one I meant is quite relevant with over 770K members.
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Post by garbulky on Jun 8, 2016 17:33:52 GMT -5
7X110 watts per channel should mean 770 watts of output. This unit doesn't do that. It does 560 watts.
If you want to put it that way for competition you can say 7 X 80 Watts, (2ch 110 W). It is just TWO more words. So it's not impossible is it?
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Post by Gary Cook on Jun 8, 2016 18:58:15 GMT -5
Power ratings are almost a no win scenario, the way I look at it with all 7 channels fully driven their capability is 80 watts each. But I can't say as I have ever heard a movie with all 7 channels driven to the same volume. Commonly 1, 2 or maybe 3 channels are at the same volume with the others idling. As a result, if I'm buying a power amp to watch movies, then the 110 watts per channel rating is more relevant.
Similarly if I'm listening to 2 channel stereo music then the 110 watts rating is also more relevant in that situation.
Conversely the 80 watts rating really doesn't have any relevance to my listening experience.
Personal experience, I changed from an XPA-2 + XPA-3 to an XPA-5 some time ago and I was told I would hear some differences based on the 200 watts per channel of the XPA-5 versus 300 watts per channel of the XPA-2. But that ignores the fact that the XPA-5 is capable of 275 watts with 2 channels driven.
Cheers Gary
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Post by leonski on Jun 8, 2016 19:34:53 GMT -5
I can NOT imagine a condition / music or even an effects laden movie that would redline 7 channels AT ONCE. Also, there are not that many really AWFUL HT speakers from the 'load' standpoint. You might think yours are bad, but compare to something like the Thiel 2.4 which is below 4ohms from 100hz to 50khz and has a few nasty phase angles tossed in for good measure. The saving grace would be 88db sensitivity. But don't forget a dip to UNDER 3 ohms at 600hz, where there is a LOT going on. www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs24-loudspeaker-measurements#lErTufjzu4abIgSz.97An amp with robust 4ohm ratings is recommended.
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Post by garbulky on Jun 8, 2016 19:42:08 GMT -5
Agreed. Music rarely redlines the amps. But we are not talking about that. We are talking about the pwoer ratings and the way Emotiva always does things. Also pointing out that other companies routinely inflate their specs is something Emotiva has used as selling points in their literature. It's part of their philosophy. That's what makes the company great. And I agree there is a perception by buyers because of inflated specs. Oh this one doesn't do as much as my reciever etc. So you know how Emotiva solved that problem? They released the UPA-7. It was their entry level 7 channel model. And it did 125 watts per channel @ 8 ohms ALL SEVEN CHANNELS DRIVEN. Price: 699. That's how they did it and that's how it was rated and that's what it takes. As you notice it takes a lot to make that amp. A lot of iron and money. That's my issue. Below is obviously not the same amp What they did here is they put out a $600 7 channel amp that did 80X7 and call it a 110X7 amp on their amp selection page. Imo that's a disservice to the amp they produced that DID do these very figures. I am asking Emotiva to do exactly what they've called out other companies for not doing.
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Post by rbk123 on Jun 9, 2016 9:14:25 GMT -5
Their marketing is obviously evolving along with everything else in their business. It's not something warranting a crusade to save them from themselves, just something else to be aware of. imo, of course.
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Jun 10, 2016 10:32:43 GMT -5
People who are used to our products are used to seeing us rate power the way we always have in the past. People who AREN'T used to our products, and aren't familiar with Emotiva as a company, are used to seeing power rated the way most of our competitors do it. (And we really want those new customers comparing those amps to competitors' products rated at "110 watts".) Either way, we risk confusing someone, and someone getting the wrong idea. We figure, if you're interested, you can read both sets of ratings on the specs page. (And, yes, we hear all of you, and we may decide to go back to the other way.... or not.... )
However, to get off this topic, which is really getting a bit silly (and the difference between 80 watts and 110 watts isn't that major anyway)...... I've actually HEARD THEM, and they sound very good - and, at least to me, they sound more powerful than you'd expect from the specs...... So I seriously encourage everyone to focus on that (as soon as a few more of you have heard them).....
The whole point of the BASX amps is that you're getting the SOUND QUALITY of a much more expensive design at a ridiculously affordable price. (If you want to find the cheapest 80 watt or 110 watt amp you can - I'm sure there are cheaper ones... but I very much doubt they sound nearly as good.)
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Post by leonski on Jun 10, 2016 16:31:10 GMT -5
Agreed, Keith. the difference between 80 watts and 110 is maybe 1db. Certainly near the lower limit of perceptibility. However, do NOT forget that at 110 watts, you are powering 2 speakers while at 80 watts, MULTIPLE. I think the net change in SPL at the listening postion would be even LESS than 1db. This given speaker of roughly equal sensitivity.
And for those 'spec hounds', FORGET IT. If you are migrating from an even MORE 'powerful' HT receiver, you should note quite the improvement.
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klinemj
Emo VIPs
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Post by klinemj on Jun 10, 2016 17:15:19 GMT -5
I recall many people in my life bragging that their speakers "make 600 watts!". But, these folks were powering these speakers with 25 watt amps and actually thought the speakers "made" power and were "600 watts loud". There is NO way to phrase an amp power rating that will make folks like this get it. So, if I were Emotiva, I would publish the data in all ways logical, advertise as "up to 'x' watts/channel", and let the cards fall from there. The wise know to look to "all channels driven" and the "how loud does it get" guys get a bragging number (which likely will means nothing anyway...).
Mark
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Post by peacock on Jun 11, 2016 4:43:32 GMT -5
while we are at it, before you talk about other companies practices, maybe you need to start adding numbers yourself. 5x80W all channels driven is not even remotely possible from a 350VA toroid, or 2x 190W for that matter. measured less than two seconds or what? take a look at the huge difference between emotiva and ati in that respect. a similar spec`d ati has a 30-40% higher capacity. but this is ofcourse the lounge, everything emo will be defended with flames coming out the nose. if they do this its great and much more "honest" than anyone else, if they do a 180 its still great becasue "everyone else is doing it" lol.
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Post by leonski on Jun 11, 2016 12:08:28 GMT -5
I recall many people in my life bragging that their speakers "make 600 watts!". But, these folks were powering these speakers with 25 watt amps and actually thought the speakers "made" power and were "600 watts loud". There is NO way to phrase an amp power rating that will make folks like this get it. So, if I were Emotiva, I would publish the data in all ways logical, advertise as "up to 'x' watts/channel", and let the cards fall from there. The wise know to look to "all channels driven" and the "how loud does it get" guys get a bragging number (which likely will means nothing anyway...). Mark yes. Makes sense. Trying to tell those types, even some otherwise sophisticated people that 'speakers don't have watts' is futile. And in general, only PRO speakers (like sound reinforcement) will be able to take a high-power beating for long. Trying to tell them that electrical characteristics of a speaker change as it GETS HOT is also a non-starter.
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Post by garbulky on Jun 11, 2016 12:43:37 GMT -5
while we are at it, before you talk about other companies practices, maybe you need to start adding numbers yourself. 5x80W all channels driven is not even remotely possible from a 350VA toroid, or 2x 190W for that matter. measured less than two seconds or what? take a look at the huge difference between emotiva and ati in that respect. a similar spec`d ati has a 30-40% higher capacity. but this is ofcourse the lounge, everything emo will be defended with flames coming out the nose. if they do this its great and much more "honest" than anyone else, if they do a 180 its still great becasue "everyone else is doing it" lol. This is true. It can't sustain it as well as more conservative measurements. But an RMS rating as measured by the AP machine is valid rating. So yeah it can't do it for long. But it is a real rating watts RMS rating. It's not a burst power or a dynamic power or a music power rating.
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Post by leonski on Jun 11, 2016 22:30:16 GMT -5
Doesn't the 'STANDARD' require 30 minutes or 60 minutes 1/3 power PRIOR to any measurements? This is to heat soak the amp under test and will represent worst case condiitons.
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Post by gzubeck on Jun 13, 2016 13:56:42 GMT -5
In all fairness to emotiva the 7 channel product will probably blow people out in a 15x20' room. Even though the amp may not drive the full 110 watts simultaneously in all seven channels the real world usage will still blow you out if you have reasonably sensitive speakers of 89-90db. Most of the time the seven channels will not be pushed to maximum output. If you need that kinda power you need to graduate to the bigger 7 channel amp for 20x40' rooms. For example im using a mini x in a two channel luddite home theater system with 89db speakers. The amount of sound out output from a 7 channel basx system would probably scare me sh*tless and elicit calls from the police department. Cheers!
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Post by leonski on Jun 14, 2016 0:11:52 GMT -5
Speaker sensitvity is, as GZUBECK mentions, a VERY high priority. Especially with effects laden movies. The good news is that Many if not all HT systems will use a sub to pick up the lowest octave or 2.
If I had a complete 5.1 with my panels? I'd end up with a couple KW of amp.
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 14, 2016 5:53:31 GMT -5
... I personally believe and have seen LOTS of equipment in my time. Most will fail sooner than later IF it is going to fail. Unless abused, an amp that gets thru the first YEAR or so without problem will go the distance... It's called the "bathtub curve of reliability" The above is why buying an extended warranty is almost always a bad deal for the consumer. The likelihood of something breaking after the factory warranty expires is very very low. By the time you reach the wear-out phase, the item is probably obsolete anyway. So in short, a one-year warranty is probably sufficient for most electronic equipment, two years is generous, three years is insane, and five years is absolutely unheard of (unless you're buying Emotiva or really expensive kit). You can look this up yourself (or just trust me - I teach System & Product safety at Southeastern Louisiana University). Consumer Reports magazine agrees - extended warranties are not worth paying for.
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Post by leonski on Jun 14, 2016 12:10:28 GMT -5
My background is in semiconductor manufacturing. We called it 'infant mortanility'. Very complex machines like Implanters which have a dozen or more power supplies and are VERY complex machines would fail a lot during the first 3 months to 6 months of service. Sometimes, a machine that we owned several of would warrant an EXTENDED WARRANTY with ON SITE FACTORY SERVICE REP. This was NOT a cheap warranty since you are essentially paying someone to baby sit a single piece of equipment. This person TRAINS your people, too, so later they take over the duties. The 'useful life' part of the above curve also includes PERIODIC MAINTENANCE whichi is VITAL to keeping the machine running and not failing at some unexpected time. Like oil changes for your car, only MORE.
Back to amplifiers. Semiconductors DO wear out. There are reliability mechanisms which come in to play after thousands of hours of use.
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