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Post by Cogito on Jun 28, 2016 13:03:43 GMT -5
The thing with CD vs vinyl is the CD is limited by the quality of the DAC output. And there are various types of dacs and they have their own sound. And like it or not most DACS have ringing in the wave form. Something vinyl does not have. Also though people say who cares about the sampling rate? If isn't sampled at a certain time then that information is lost. So the CD doesn't capture everyhing perfectly. The digital filters used also has to alter the signal. Now vinyl also has limits to its time resolution as well as a bunch of manipulations the signal needs to go through to output it like the RIAA curve and different cartridges sound different etc. You're right, the CD doesn't capture everything, but what really does? In my experience, the pre and post ringing of a DAC is essentially inaudible (BTW The stylus and tonearm have TONS of ringing in comparison). Also, more musical information is lost on vinyl do to it's physical limitations (Wow & flutter, rumble, static, high noise floor, dust, dynamic compression, THD, IMD, gradual wear, etc, etc, etc.) CD and the the DACs used to recreate sound, reproduce a FAR cleaner and accurate analog sound than the best vinyl setup could ever even contemplate. Time to move beyond that 1877 technology! |
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Post by brubacca on Jun 28, 2016 13:09:49 GMT -5
I hate how every thread like this ends the same. Cd is more accurate, Vinyl is more musical. Tubes sound better, SS is more accurate. This has been going on here for years.
There is no spoon. Each format can sound good depending on the media being played. Also depends on your tastes and system.
Just find what you like and listen to it.
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Post by novisnick on Jun 28, 2016 13:14:53 GMT -5
I hate how every thread like this ends the same. Cd is more accurate, Vinyl is more musical. Tubes sound better, SS is more accurate. This has been going on here for years. There is no spoon. Each format can sound good depending on the media being played. Also depends on your tastes and system. Just find what you like and listen to it. Here ya go,,,,,,,,,, youtu.be/slldMEPvUqA |
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Post by monkumonku on Jun 28, 2016 13:21:47 GMT -5
I hate how every thread like this ends the same. Cd is more accurate, Vinyl is more musical. Tubes sound better, SS is more accurate. This has been going on here for years. There is no spoon. Each format can sound good depending on the media being played. Also depends on your tastes and system. Just find what you like and listen to it. The thread always ends the same way because the ultimate answer is always the same. Well, it doesn't ALWAYS end the same way.. sometimes it gets locked.  |
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Post by etc6849 on Jun 28, 2016 14:10:20 GMT -5
A well mastered HD Audio download or CD, should be very realistic, assuming you have good room acoustics and decent equipment with a low noise floor. Acoustics will really give you more bang for the buck as far as improving your system than anything (especially gimmicks like $1k cables, etc...). I can close my eyes and I'm literally there if a good recording is decent. Even with stereo on a good track I can hear things past 180 degrees. Study my measurements under my REW Files folder found at the link below, some pics are also there. Pay particular attention to the waterfall graphs and the impulse/etc plots as improving these plots really helped my setup sound alive. drive.google.com/open?id=0B1J0a4OV_WGLUVZBNUJBR29LTEUYou'll find the more you can make your room absorptive, the lower the noise floor gets and the more you'll hear of what was in the room in the recording studio. It is very easy to hear nuances you couldn't before like a drummers chair squeaking, etc... I know this is counter to 98% of what audiophiles (absorptive material makes the room dead) and acoustic "experts" say who try to sell $2k diffusers say, but all you need to do is put as much absorption in a room as possible, such as Owens Corning 703 (4" or thicker, I've layered stuff up to 16" in my room) in key locations after wrapping them in cheap fabric. You'll immediately hear a difference. The more you take your room out of the equation, the more accurately you'll hear the recorded room. Keith perhaps the problem with digital is that our recording and mastering techniques are so subpar at creating realistic sound that a analog coloration needs to be there to have it sound realistic. Comparing the best digital I have ever heard to the best analog I would say analog always sounds more like an actual human |
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Post by qdtjni on Jun 28, 2016 14:18:17 GMT -5
The thing with CD vs vinyl is the CD is limited by the quality of the DAC output. And there are various types of dacs and they have their own sound. And like it or not most DACS have ringing in the wave form. Something vinyl does not have. Also though people say who cares about the sampling rate? If isn't sampled at a certain time then that information is lost. So the CD doesn't capture everyhing perfectly. The digital filters used also has to alter the signal. Now vinyl also has limits to its time resolution as well as a bunch of manipulations the signal needs to go through to output it like the RIAA curve and different cartridges sound different etc. You're right, the CD doesn't capture everything, but what really does? In my experience, the pre and post ringing of a DAC is essentially inaudible (BTW The stylus and tonearm have TONS of ringing in comparison). Also, more musical information is lost on vinyl do to it's physical limitations (Wow & flutter, rumble, static, high noise floor, dust, dynamic compression, THD, IMD, gradual wear, etc, etc, etc.) CD and the the DACs used to recreate sound, reproduce a FAR cleaner and accurate analog sound than the best vinyl setup could ever even contemplate. Time to move beyond that 1877 technology! Yes, digital, and especially high-res, digital CAN and should sound far better than vinyl. Then again In the real world, where I live, that's not always the case, especially if we keep it within the threads topic. BTW, the "ringing" from tonearms are in the subsonic range. |
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guitarforlife
Sensei
Just another busy day in Northern Wisconsin.
Posts: 947
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Post by guitarforlife on Jun 28, 2016 14:23:17 GMT -5
There is another aspect to this debate IMHO. Our brain. Not our ears.
Let me try to explain. We hear what we see. So what I'm getting to is this. In the audio community we strive for that LIVE sound of actual musicians in our room.
I do not believe our brain will ever let us believe that. Simply because we do not see them. We see little black boxes making sound though bigger black boxes.
We see no musicians to tell us this is real.
Think about how many time we have been fooled by lip syncing LIVE performances. We see a person sing therefore we believe it is real. And sounds LIVE.
I say, if you want a true blind test set up a group of musicians and let them play the songs then with out you knowing switch on the stereo and let them fake the song.
See if you can tell them apart. I bet you could not always tell when it is live or a recording.
Magic works the same way. Smoke and mirrors. We see it and we are amazed. Our other senses have just as much to do with this as our ears.
All the specs and measurements in the world will not change it.
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Post by garbulky on Jun 28, 2016 14:32:34 GMT -5
The thing with CD vs vinyl is the CD is limited by the quality of the DAC output. And there are various types of dacs and they have their own sound. And like it or not most DACS have ringing in the wave form. Something vinyl does not have. Also though people say who cares about the sampling rate? If isn't sampled at a certain time then that information is lost. So the CD doesn't capture everyhing perfectly. The digital filters used also has to alter the signal. Now vinyl also has limits to its time resolution as well as a bunch of manipulations the signal needs to go through to output it like the RIAA curve and different cartridges sound different etc. You're right, the CD doesn't capture everything, but what really does? In my experience, the pre and post ringing of a DAC is essentially inaudible (BTW The stylus and tonearm have TONS of ringing in comparison). Also, more musical information is lost on vinyl do to it's physical limitations (Wow & flutter, rumble, static, high noise floor, dust, dynamic compression, THD, IMD, gradual wear, etc, etc, etc.) CD and the the DACs used to recreate sound, reproduce a FAR cleaner and accurate analog sound than the best vinyl setup could ever even contemplate. Time to move beyond that 1877 technology! Though the setups I heard had no issue with dust and pops. I do agree that there needs to be some progress on these issues. Is it possible to make a turn table 2.0? One that is immune to things like rumble and stuff |
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Post by Cogito on Jun 28, 2016 14:38:54 GMT -5
BTW, the "ringing" from tonearms are in the subsonic range. Correct! Power robbing, detail stealing Rumble Rumble Rumble...  |
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Post by qdtjni on Jun 28, 2016 14:52:57 GMT -5
BTW, the "ringing" from tonearms are in the subsonic range. Correct! Power robbing, detail stealing Rumble Rumble Rumble... Since you can't hear it, what difference is that from supersonic digital ringing?  |
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Post by qdtjni on Jun 28, 2016 14:55:05 GMT -5
You're right, the CD doesn't capture everything, but what really does? In my experience, the pre and post ringing of a DAC is essentially inaudible (BTW The stylus and tonearm have TONS of ringing in comparison). Also, more musical information is lost on vinyl do to it's physical limitations (Wow & flutter, rumble, static, high noise floor, dust, dynamic compression, THD, IMD, gradual wear, etc, etc, etc.) CD and the the DACs used to recreate sound, reproduce a FAR cleaner and accurate analog sound than the best vinyl setup could ever even contemplate. Time to move beyond that 1877 technology! Though the setups I heard had no issue with dust and pops. I do agree that there needs to be some progress on these issues. Is it possible to make a turn table 2.0? One that is immune to things like rumble and stuff Unless you have an old plastic TT from 70s or 80s, rumble is not much of a deal. That is, unless you have a listening place where the noise floor is beyond 30 dB. EDIT: I'm not one of those who thinks LP is technically superior to good digital. |
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KeithL
Administrator 
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Post by KeithL on Jun 28, 2016 14:58:55 GMT -5
That was indeed my point... The problem with the communal ownership premise is that music is supposed to be purchased for personal use. I'm sure lawyers would have a field day with this.  Maybe I misread what KeithL posted but my understanding was that each person in the group owned an original of the vinyl. The best quality original was then used to make a hi def digital "backup" that each person was entitled to as they own an original. If a lawyer came to my house I'd simply show him the original and the door.  Cheers Gary |
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Post by qdtjni on Jun 28, 2016 15:03:33 GMT -5
This whole debate is really silly.
If you like vinyl better, fine.
Is CD or ripped CD's better for you whether you find vinyl suffering (which it does on and off) from surface noise, ticks from tiny scratches, static, etc.
Also fine. Nobody from any the hard core side is ever going to convince the e ones on the other side.
It's like someone trying to convince someone that a red car is better than a black car.
After all, is what we all experience, isn't it?
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Post by Cogito on Jun 28, 2016 16:19:42 GMT -5
Correct! Power robbing, detail stealing Rumble Rumble Rumble... Since you can't hear it, what difference is that from supersonic digital ringing? The subsonic resonance does have even order harmonics that DO enter the audible range. A resonance of 12 +/- Hz (not uncommon to tonearm/cartridge combinations) can contribute significant energy at 24 and 48 +/- Hz. This is a NON-issue for CD's as is the supersonic ringing which is both completely inaudible and contributes virtually no energy to the signal. |
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Post by qdtjni on Jun 28, 2016 16:24:55 GMT -5
Since you can't hear it, what difference is that from supersonic digital ringing? The subsonic resonance does have even order harmonics that DO enter the audible range. A resonance of 12 +/- Hz (not uncommon to tonearm/cartridge combinations) can contribute significant energy at 24 and 48 +/- Hz. This is a NON-issue for CD's as is the supersonic ringing which is both completely inaudible and contributes virtually no energy to the signal. Yet again well setup TT system has a resonance around 8-10 Hz but as you say, it CAN contribute. |
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Post by Raven on Jun 28, 2016 17:00:14 GMT -5
Wow, just for test purpose I've audition ELO "Time" LP vs CD and I've realized that this is FIRST CD I listened this year!!! Definitely CD is a collapsing technology sales numbers in North America. Almost all the time I'm listening music from computer/cellphone and LPs. So this all *** vs *** comes to only two sources digital AND vinyl (not the VS.) I'm enjoying both of them if LP's version sounds better than digital I'm listening LP and don't care what vinyl haters think about it. If digital sounds better - that's my choice. Why do I have to torture myself with inferior source if I have choice??? So my point is - STOP digital dictatorship (and any other dictatorship)!!! every audiophile has to have FREEDOM of listening ANY music/source which sounds better and makes him/her happy |
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Post by novisnick on Jun 28, 2016 17:06:11 GMT -5
Wow, just for test purpose I've audition ELO "Time" LP vs CD and I've realized that this is FIRST CD I listened this year!!! Definitely CD is a collapsing technology sales numbers in North America. Almost all the time I'm listening music from computer/cellphone and LPs. So this all *** vs *** comes to only two sources digital AND vinyl (not the VS.) I'm enjoying both of them if LP's version sounds better than digital I'm listening LP and don't care what vinyl haters think about it. If digital sounds better - that's my chose. Why do I have to torture myself with inferior source if I have chose??? So my point is - STOP digital dictatorship (and any other dictatorship)!!! every audiophile has to have FREEDOM of listening ANY music/source which sounds better and makes him/her happy Preach it brother!! |
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Post by Raven on Jun 28, 2016 17:13:23 GMT -5
Wow, just for test purpose I've audition ELO "Time" LP vs CD and I've realized that this is FIRST CD I listened this year!!! Definitely CD is a collapsing technology sales numbers in North America. Almost all the time I'm listening music from computer/cellphone and LPs. So this all *** vs *** comes to only two sources digital AND vinyl (not the VS.) I'm enjoying both of them if LP's version sounds better than digital I'm listening LP and don't care what vinyl haters think about it. If digital sounds better - that's my chose. Why do I have to torture myself with inferior source if I have chose??? So my point is - STOP digital dictatorship (and any other dictatorship)!!! every audiophile has to have FREEDOM of listening ANY music/source which sounds better and makes him/her happy Preach it brother!! Can't stop laughing  |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 29, 2016 6:09:20 GMT -5
IMHO:
CD = Tidal = Uncompressed hard-drive streaming files. The only differences will be in the DAC (assuming identical source material)
Vinyl = any of the above with a GOOD DAC.
Future improvements in vinyl = Nope - not going to happen
Future improvements in digital = (near term) Meridian MQA or (long term) a continuing series of playback improvements that we can't even imagine as of now.
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Post by brubacca on Jun 29, 2016 6:17:32 GMT -5
IMHO: CD = Tidal = Uncompressed hard-drive streaming files. The only differences will be in the DAC (assuming identical source material) Vinyl = any of the above with a GOOD DAC. Future improvements in vinyl = Nope - not going to happen Future improvements in digital = (near term) Meridian MQA or (long term) a continuing series of playback improvements that we can't even imagine as of now. Speaking of improvements in Digital- The Schiit Multibit technology sounds really good. I have the Gungnir MB and it sounds very analog or vinyl like. |
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