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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 7, 2016 7:56:37 GMT -5
Some components with excellent specs don't sound as good as you'd think, given their prices. But components with poor specs almost always sound poorly. So for purposes of this conversation, throw out ALL components with poor specifications.
Of the remaining contenders, at any level above the XSP-1, system synergy matters as much or more than specs. And you won't know until you listen. So any next preamp purchase I make will probably be internet direct and include a return period.
How much am I willing to spend on a preamplifier? In the context of the rest of my system, I'd be willing to spend up to about $4K. But ONLY if I have to, and ONLY if I find nothing less expensive that sounds as good.
If the preamplifier doesn't jive with my XPA-1s, then no matter how good it is (on an absolute basis or based on reviews), it's not for me. Does it make sense to select a $4K preamp based on $2K of power amps? If they're the XPA-1s, then yes - it does. Why? Emotiva's power amplifiers are not just "good for the money," they are exceptional on a cost-no-object basis. To get the same sound quality at the same power, you'd have to spend 10x or more the amps' price. Emotiva's preamplifiers don't have that "cost-equivalency-ratio." To get a preamp with Emotiva's features, but better sound quality, you'd need to spend but 4x to 6x the Emotiva's price.
10x the power amp's cost isn't in my budget. 4x the preamp's cost is. And the features don't matter to me - I don't use them. So 4x the XSP-1's cost (sans its features) should get me a VERY good sounding preamp.
How good is "good enough?" It's a question that we must all answer for ourselves based on our listening habits, our budgets, and our preferences. If I find myself listening to less music, then it's an indicator that something in my system isn't good enough. I have owned several systems in the past that were more than "good enough" for me. What were they? It doesn't matter. Why? It's a matter of taste. My tastes aren't yours, and what I found exciting and satisfying may not ring your bells at all, and vice versa.
For now, I'm VERY happy with my XPA-1s. I don't anticipate selling them. I have Tekton Pendragons on order. I'm hoping that they'll (like the XPA-1s) be "keepers." That leaves sources & preamps. I've already ordered a BASX T-100, and eagerly await its arrival in August. I have very high hopes for the preamp, despite its modest price. Do I expect it to be my final choice in preamplifiers? Maybe, maybe not, but you never know... I'm betting that the BASX preamp may well have a "cost equivalency ratio" far exceeding that of the XSP-1...
I'm both blessed and cursed to have a wide variety of strongly-opinionated influencers, here on the Lounge and elsewhere, whose "assistance" constantly affects my considerations of various preamplifiers. Ultimately, however, my own ears are the deciding factor, and I'll keep listening until I find one that I really, really like.
Cheers - Boomzilla
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Post by Axis on Jul 7, 2016 8:15:26 GMT -5
Boom you are not going to find a better preamp than the XSP-1 to go with those XPA-1's that cost $4000.
Edit: I better qualify this.
I have no ideal what you will hear with any one preamp connected to those XPA-1's but your not going to get better quality parts or design in a preamp than the XSP-1 for $4000.
I felt the need to bust your bubble Boom. Sorry.
Cheers
Mike
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 7, 2016 8:29:07 GMT -5
Hegel P30 (used)
Classé CP-800 (used)
Audio GD HE-1 (new)
McIntosh C2200 (used)
Parasound HALO JC 2 BP (used)
PASS Labs XP-10 (used)
Prima Luna DiaLogue 3 (new)
Electrocompaniet EC 4.7 (new)
Dynaudio T+A P 1260R (new)
Atma-Sphere MP-3 (new)
Of the bunch, I'm currently most interested in the second & third on the list.
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Post by DavidR on Jul 7, 2016 8:42:55 GMT -5
The XSP-1 has 2 sets of balanced inputs and one set of balanced main outputs. This sounds like what you would need and want for a two channel Home Reference analog system. Something that mates with the XPA-1's and keeps that analog signal free of any noise and using the XPA-1's free of signal crosstalk. .................................................................................................... I believe that the XSP-1 has 2 sets of balanced/XLR main outputs and 2 sets of unbalanced/RCA main outs - capable of driving 4 amps. You just need to have the toggle switches set to FULL. |
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Post by Axis on Jul 7, 2016 8:44:37 GMT -5
Hegel P30 (used) Classé CP-800 (used) Audio GD HE-1 (new) McIntosh C2200 (used) Parasound HALO JC 2 BP (used) PASS Labs XP-10 (used) Prima Luna DiaLogue 3 (new) Electrocompaniet EC 4.7 (new) Dynaudio T+A P 1260R (new) Atma-Sphere MP-3 (new) Of the bunch, I'm currently most interested in the second & third on the list. When I look at this list of manufactures I think that they overcharge for there products. |
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Post by Axis on Jul 7, 2016 8:46:27 GMT -5
The XSP-1 has 2 sets of balanced inputs and one set of balanced main outputs. This sounds like what you would need and want for a two channel Home Reference analog system. Something that mates with the XPA-1's and keeps that analog signal free of any noise and using the XPA-1's free of signal crosstalk. .................................................................................................... I believe that the XSP-1 has 2 sets of balanced/XLR main outputs and 2 sets of unbalanced/RCA main outs - capable of driving 4 amps. You just need to have the toggle switches set to FULL. •Excellent input and output flexibility: 2 sets of balanced inputs, 4 sets of unbalanced inputs, one set of balanced main outputs, and one set of unbalanced main outputs. |
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Post by qdtjni on Jul 7, 2016 8:51:45 GMT -5
Hegel P30 (used) Classé CP-800 (used) Audio GD HE-1 (new) McIntosh C2200 (used) Parasound HALO JC 2 BP (used) PASS Labs XP-10 (used) Prima Luna DiaLogue 3 (new) Electrocompaniet EC 4.7 (new) Dynaudio T+A P 1260R (new) Atma-Sphere MP-3 (new) Of the bunch, I'm currently most interested in the second & third on the list. You can deduct 19% MwSt (VAT) and probably negotiate and even better price. |
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Post by Axis on Jul 7, 2016 8:55:50 GMT -5
The XPA-1's are balanced differential mono amplifiers. Why on gods green earth would you not use a balanced differential preamp with them.
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Post by brutiarti on Jul 7, 2016 9:05:47 GMT -5
Emotiva's power amplifiers are not just "good for the money," they are exceptional on a cost-no-object basis. To get the same sound quality at the same power, you'd have to spend 10x or more the amps' price. Emotiva's preamplifiers don't have that "cost-equivalency-ratio." Emotiva's XPA and discontinued XPR lines are world class amplifiers regardless of cost. |
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Post by brutiarti on Jul 7, 2016 9:08:57 GMT -5
Hegel P30 (used) Classé CP-800 (used) Audio GD HE-1 (new) McIntosh C2200 (used) Parasound HALO JC 2 BP (used) PASS Labs XP-10 (used) Prima Luna DiaLogue 3 (new) Electrocompaniet EC 4.7 (new) Dynaudio T+A P 1260R (new) Atma-Sphere MP-3 (new) Of the bunch, I'm currently most interested in the second & third on the list. I will try the JC2 from audio advisor. They give you 30 days in home trial and is a good reference where you want to go... or stay |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 7, 2016 9:21:46 GMT -5
Do other manufacturers overcharge for their products? Yes. The only exception would be the Audio GD company.
Do the products (ignoring cost) sound better? I don't know. I haven't heard ANY of them. We'll see...
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Post by monkumonku on Jul 7, 2016 9:30:57 GMT -5
I didn't vote because I think it's a dopey question.  You might as well ask, is the XSP-1 the world's best, greatest, unequaled preamp, yes or no? I've owned the XSP-1 gen 1, a DC-1, XDA-1, XDA-2 and USP-1, all used at one time or another as a preamp. They're all great pieces of gear. I remember when the USP-1 was released, it received high praise from users in this Lounge, and deservedly so. People raved about its neutrality and what an excellent preamp it was (and I agree). Then when the XSP-1 came out, it also received high praise and all of a sudden the USP-1 was moved to the wayside because people said the XSP-1 sounded even better. Now I ask you, if the USP-1 was so neutral, then how could the XSP-1 sound "better" or how could it be more neutral than neutral? My current 2 channel setup consists of plugging the source (either a Sonos streamer or ERC-2) into a Schiit Bifrost Multibit DAC, which is plugged directly into my Bob Latino VTA ST-120 amp. The volume is controlled by way of an attenuator knob that I added to the amp. So now there is no more "preamp" in the system. My opinion is it sounds great! I love it! I think my 2 channel has never sounded so good, but I also realize memory is fleeting so I am only able to compare what I hear versus what I remember from before, rather than doing any direct comparisons. The thing is, here we're talking about this preamp or that preamp and what is the best up to $X and how does it compare to a $10 worth of parts preamp soldered together in Indiana, etc., but it seems to me that so much of all this discussion is just academic. Personally, I think there is not a big enough difference among good preamps to warrant such a lengthy discussion that has no definitive answer to it. The XSP-1 is a darn good preamp and for the money I doubt you're going to find anything significantly better if you're looking for a straight wire with gain. Emo still makes the best bang for the buck, bar none for all their product lines. If you're looking for something that "sounds better" than an XSP-1, then you're looking for something that colors the sound in some way - so look at a tube preamp instead. Once you get away from a concept of straight wire with gain, and start looking for a preamp based on what "sounds good" or "sounds better" then that is totally subjective territory. Y'all just stop flappin' your jaws and sit back and enjoy the music, for goodness' sake! |
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Post by DavidR on Jul 7, 2016 9:34:56 GMT -5
I believe that the XSP-1 has 2 sets of balanced/XLR main outputs and 2 sets of unbalanced/RCA main outs - capable of driving 4 amps. You just need to have the toggle switches set to FULL. •Excellent input and output flexibility: 2 sets of balanced inputs, 4 sets of unbalanced inputs, one set of balanced main outputs, and one set of unbalanced main outputs. Yet Emotiva Tech support will tell you what I stated and it works. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 7, 2016 9:40:44 GMT -5
...Personally, I think there is not a big enough difference among good preamps to warrant such a lengthy discussion This is the crux of your post. We can agree to disagree. The XSP-1 is a darn good preamp and for the money I doubt you're going to find anything significantly better if you're looking for a straight wire with gain. The XSP-1 absolutely IS a good preamp, but that qualifier "for the money" is the crux of MY argument. I'm not convinced that products that measure identically can't sound differently. DACs are a prime example, and I believe that the same is true of preamplifiers. Emo still makes the best bang for the buck, bar none for all their product lines Agreed. If you're looking for something that "sounds better" than an XSP-1, then you're looking for something that colors the sound in some way Back to my comment on things that measure the same sound differently. And there is NO such thing as that mythical "straight wire with gain." Cheers - Boom |
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KeithL
Administrator 
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Post by KeithL on Jul 7, 2016 9:42:22 GMT -5
What you're talking about would be a "higher end XSP-1"..... Which means that you're sort of asking the same question that this whole thread started about.... so... short answer.... Yes, there probably will eventually be an XSP-1 Gen3, which will be "an evolutionary improvement" (similar but a little bit better) over the current model. We're probably NOT going to remove a lot of features - because many of the people who buy the XSP-1 LIKE the features it has. And we're probably NOT going to come out with a much more expensive version - because we probably wouldn't sell enough of them to justify the development and production costs. About the only "feature" we would probably add would be more balanced inputs (or possibly make the entire signal path balanced). (We might add one or two digital inputs - but that would be going in the opposite direction than what you're asking.) Odds are pretty strong that we won't be coming out with a very expensive "statement preamp" - because we wouldn't sell enough of them to justify the development costs... As for the phono stage, the current one is actually quite good.... and is "technically" equal to many separate phono preamps costing quite a lot. The way vinyl "should sound" is very subjective. No cartridge is perfect, and many phono preamps sound especially good with a given cartridge or turntable because their imperfections happen to "have good synergy" - which is a nice way of saying that their flaws cancel each other out. Therefore, there is never going to be "a perfect phono preamp for everyone", or one that sounds perfect with every combination of equipment. We feel that the technical performance of the phono preamp in the XSP-1 is pretty close to the limitations of vinyl itself, and we've designed it to be as neutral as possible (with RIAA eq as accurate as possible). And, if we were to add this or that sort of coloration, it would sound better with one cartridge, and worse with another. (So, while it isn't perfect, and we may someday offer one with slightly better technical performance, I'm not quite sure what would constitute "a killer phono preamp" far above our current one.) @keithl : Do you think Emotiva will ever come out with a strictly 2-channel (i.e no HT circuitry) Pre with great SQ and killer Phono ? An XSP-1 with some refinements sans HT. Should I hold my breath or move on. |
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Post by Axis on Jul 7, 2016 9:45:55 GMT -5
•Excellent input and output flexibility: 2 sets of balanced inputs, 4 sets of unbalanced inputs, one set of balanced main outputs, and one set of unbalanced main outputs. Yet Emotiva Tech support will tell you what I stated and it works. Are you saying that there is more than one set of balanced main outputs on the XSP-1 ? Are you talking about the subwoofer outputs ?  |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 7, 2016 9:57:15 GMT -5
And YES, I WOULD try out that Gen. 3 XSP-1.
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Post by DavidR on Jul 7, 2016 10:00:37 GMT -5
Yet Emotiva Tech support will tell you what I stated and it works. Are you saying that there is more than one set of balanced main outputs on the XSP-1 ? Are you talking about the subwoofer outputs ? The sub woofer outputs (XLR and RCA) can be made full range by flipping the toggle switch to FULL |
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Post by monkumonku on Jul 7, 2016 10:01:40 GMT -5
If you're looking for something that "sounds better" than an XSP-1, then you're looking for something that colors the sound in some way Back to my comment on things that measure the same sound differently. And there is NO such thing as that mythical "straight wire with gain." Cheers - Boom You are perhaps right, there may be no true "straight wire with gain" and looking for one may be like chasing unicorns. And things that measure the same may sound differently but then I say different people would perceive that same thing differently also. Which makes it apples and oranges because one person may like what they hear and another may not, even though they are hearing the same thing that measures the same but sounds differently (which by the way, if two things sound different then they cannot possibly measure identically; there has to be some variable that causes the difference in sound which simply isn't part of the set of "identical" measurements). A "straight wire with gain" may indeed be mythical but then trying to determine what is the "best" preamp is also chasing unicorns because the "best" preamp is mythical. Which leads me back to the statement I made in my previous post: Y'all just stop flappin' your jaws and sit back and enjoy the music, for goodness' sake! |
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Post by Axis on Jul 7, 2016 10:03:04 GMT -5
Are you saying that there is more than one set of balanced main outputs on the XSP-1 ? Are you talking about the subwoofer outputs ? The sub woofer outputs (XLR and RCA) can be made full range by flipping the toggle switch to FULL Ok, that's cool. Did not know that. The XLR outputs are balanced. Not the RCA. |
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You might as well ask, is the XSP-1 the world's best, greatest, unequaled preamp, yes or no? 
