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Post by teaman on Dec 6, 2016 16:21:20 GMT -5
Your hostility baffles me. I came here to ask questions how the MC-700 works and if it's similar to the behavior of the UMC-200. Distance settings is just one of the questions I brought up. You haven't added anything useful to that discussion but yet you feel the need to constantly harass me. Please stop that behavior or this will be my last reply to anything you say. I let the mods decide if they tolerate your behavior or not. How can "distance settings" be an issue when finer steps were never advertised or promised? Well, let´s just forget it, you are learn-resistant I guess.  Feel free to ask questions urwi. Not everyone will have answers but that is what the forum is for. If you are waiting on direct answers you may be better suited to call and speak to an Emotiva tech. I am sure they can get you squared away. Tim |
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Post by urwi on Dec 6, 2016 16:31:40 GMT -5
You're right. "Eleven user-programmable fully parametric equalizers per channel" includes the subwoofer channel. Regarding treatments I already did what you proposed. EQ can fix a lot of problems in the bass region as has been shown by many experts in the field. Dan has already answered that question, can you please remove it from your concerns. BTW, for someone concerned with minute details of audio performance not to have paid any consideration to acoustics is unusual. My experience has been that no amount of "correction" can fix a bad room. I'd suggest looking at the acoustics and making some effort to fix at least the major issues. To accomplish that specialised acoustic treatments are not always necessary, double layer curtains for example, selecting the appropriate underfelt and carpet, speaker location is as always important as even a few mm's can make a difference. Do the best you can with the room first them apply correction has always worked best for me. Cheers Gary |
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Post by urwi on Dec 6, 2016 16:38:06 GMT -5
I agree except the distance settings. Precise distance settings are crucial for good imaging. If you're sitting outside the sweet spot this doesn't matter much anymore. But this is just inherent to phantom imaging. By the way, those features are available in many AVRs that cost less than $500. As commented on previously these are personal preferences, not issues, what you would like, but are somewhat unrealistic in a $500 processor. I'd think 0.03ft steps would be more practical. A delay equalling 0.3ft will shift a phantom image by 30%! I would need much finer control over delay to dial in my speakers otherwise imaging will greatly suffer. 1 hour and 20 minutes just to set EQ values for 8 speakers? Very cumbersome. USB upload or similar would be more user friendly. I'd like to be able to set a fixed volume level at powering up. Starting my mornings with the volume setting of last night's movie session would eventually give me a heart attack. Maybe you should be looking at an RMC-1 or an XMC-1. On the 10 cm increments, I don't know about you but I never hold my head in exactly the same position for a 2 hour movie. Maybe I'm a wriggle worm but I shift around far more than 10 cm. Does that mean I should stop the movie every time I move and re correct? Or that anyone whose ears are more than 10 cm away from mine has to suffer? On the start up volume question, I simply program a single volume click into the start up sequence which sets the initial volume at zero. Then I increase the volume to the level I want at that particular time. It has proven the most effective as volume is very much source dependant, for example a quiet Dolby D movie source before turning off at night can be a very loud stereo news source first thing in the morning. So a fixed start off volume wouldn't work for me. Cheers Gary |
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Post by urwi on Dec 6, 2016 16:40:59 GMT -5
Not a chicken and egg question. First you equalize speakers then you adjust their overall loudness. I'm sorry but this one doesn't make any sense to me. Equalizing speakers will most likely affect their overall level. If the test tones are post EQ they don't take that level change into account hence speaker level calibration with a SPL meter will be wrong as it only sees the unprocessed speaker not the equalized speaker. Imaging will suffer. Isn't this a chicken and egg question, which comes first, frequency equalisation or overall speaker volume? No matter which way around it is carried out it still requires re doing what came before it. I usually have a 4 step process, yes it takes time, but it's not like I have to do it every time I use the processor, I only do it once, so I take the time necessary to get it right. Cheers Gary |
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Post by Gary Cook on Dec 6, 2016 16:53:29 GMT -5
Not a chicken and egg question. First you equalize speakers then you adjust their overall loudness. I'm sorry but this one doesn't make any sense to me. Isn't this a chicken and egg question, which comes first, frequency equalisation or overall speaker volume? No matter which way around it is carried out it still requires re doing what came before it. I usually have a 4 step process, yes it takes time, but it's not like I have to do it every time I use the processor, I only do it once, so I take the time necessary to get it right. Maybe I'm strange, but I have always done volume first, then equalisation, then back to volume just to make sure that nothing has changed. Honestly I don't see what difference the order makes. Cheers Gary |
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Post by Gary Cook on Dec 6, 2016 16:59:22 GMT -5
I agree except the distance settings. Precise distance settings are crucial for good imaging. If you're sitting outside the sweet spot this doesn't matter much anymore. But this is just inherent to phantom imaging. By the way, those features are available in many AVRs that cost less than $500. As commented on previously these are personal preferences, not issues, what you would like, but are somewhat unrealistic in a $500 processor. Maybe you should be looking at an RMC-1 or an XMC-1. On the 10 cm increments, I don't know about you but I never hold my head in exactly the same position for a 2 hour movie. Maybe I'm a wriggle worm but I shift around far more than 10 cm. Does that mean I should stop the movie every time I move and re correct? Or that anyone whose ears are more than 10 cm away from mine has to suffer? On the start up volume question, I simply program a single volume click into the start up sequence which sets the initial volume at zero. Then I increase the volume to the level I want at that particular time. It has proven the most effective as volume is very much source dependant, for example a quiet Dolby D movie source before turning off at night can be a very loud stereo news source first thing in the morning. So a fixed start off volume wouldn't work for me. We do have to remember that the UMC-200 is ~5 years old, hence the MC-700. The fact remains if I move my head more than 10 cm I change the imaging. Someone else sitting more than 10 cm away from me experiences different imaging. I'm an equal opportunity person., so I have the sweet spot set half way between where I sit and are my wife sits, so 10 cm either way is hardly an issue. Cheers Gary |
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Post by monkumonku on Dec 6, 2016 17:06:13 GMT -5
I agree except the distance settings. Precise distance settings are crucial for good imaging. If you're sitting outside the sweet spot this doesn't matter much anymore. But this is just inherent to phantom imaging. By the way, those features are available in many AVRs that cost less than $500. We do have to remember that the UMC-200 is ~5 years old, hence the MC-700. The fact remains if I move my head more than 10 cm I change the imaging. Someone else sitting more than 10 cm away from me experiences different imaging. I'm an equal opportunity person., so I have the sweet spot set half way between where I sit and are my wife sits, so 10 cm either way is hardly an issue. Cheers Gary I gotta say, we're missing the forest focusing on pine needles. 10 cm is 4". Like you said, no one keeps their head perfectly still while listening to something (hmm.. maybe they should have special chairs that clamp your head in place). By the same token, all but one person at a concert is going to be short-changed on sound because there can only be one "sweet spot" position. All other chairs are not as good. |
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Post by Jim on Dec 6, 2016 17:42:58 GMT -5
I agree except the distance settings. Precise distance settings are crucial for good imaging. If you're sitting outside the sweet spot this doesn't matter much anymore. But this is just inherent to phantom imaging. By the way, those features are available in many AVRs that cost less than $500. As commented on previously these are personal preferences, not issues, what you would like, but are somewhat unrealistic in a $500 processor. Maybe you should be looking at an RMC-1 or an XMC-1. On the 10 cm increments, I don't know about you but I never hold my head in exactly the same position for a 2 hour movie. Maybe I'm a wriggle worm but I shift around far more than 10 cm. Does that mean I should stop the movie every time I move and re correct? Or that anyone whose ears are more than 10 cm away from mine has to suffer? On the start up volume question, I simply program a single volume click into the start up sequence which sets the initial volume at zero. Then I increase the volume to the level I want at that particular time. It has proven the most effective as volume is very much source dependant, for example a quiet Dolby D movie source before turning off at night can be a very loud stereo news source first thing in the morning. So a fixed start off volume wouldn't work for me. Cheers Gary If price is a consideration for you, have you considered buying an AVR that's less than $500 that has the features you want? |
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Post by gr8erimage on Dec 6, 2016 18:03:52 GMT -5
You're right. "Eleven user-programmable fully parametric equalizers per channel" includes the subwoofer channel. Regarding treatments I already did what you proposed. EQ can fix a lot of problems in the bass region as has been shown by many experts in the field. Most of the articles and posts from real experts that I've read in the REW forum point to "less is more" in equalization. 11 on each channel is overkill. |
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Post by rbk123 on Dec 6, 2016 18:25:49 GMT -5
Not paralyzed, just checking basic functionality. Things have become a little bit more complex with multichannel audio. Paralysis by over-analysis. No, you are so beyond not being able to see the forest for the trees it is comical. |
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Post by yves on Dec 7, 2016 2:10:16 GMT -5
You're right. "Eleven user-programmable fully parametric equalizers per channel" includes the subwoofer channel. Regarding treatments I already did what you proposed. EQ can fix a lot of problems in the bass region as has been shown by many experts in the field. Most of the articles and posts from real experts that I've read in the REW forum point to "less is more" in equalization. 11 on each channel is overkill. Personally, I, am inclined to think the word "real" in "real experts" is where the real overkill is at. None other than Jeff Meier of AccuCal has stated in the review that 11 bands is actually part of what makes the UMC-200 manual PEQ superior to that found in the much more expensive Classé SSP-800, and the latter has only 5.  |
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Post by Dan Laufman on Dec 7, 2016 8:24:40 GMT -5
I thought urwi had move on to the mighty Outlaw 975...
I gotta say, he's wearing this thread out...
urwi...be honest with yourself. You know you're going to go to BB and get yourself nice plastic AVR. Stop wearing the boys out for nothing.
Peace and love,
Big Dan
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Post by urwi on Dec 7, 2016 9:10:27 GMT -5
Gary CookRe "chicken and egg question" - Not a chicken and egg problem to me because there's no "causality dilemma". It's always setting EQ THEN levels. Any EQ change requires checking and setting levels. Changing levels does NOT require setting and checking EQ though. Re "Distance settings" - Don't shoot the messenger. For proper phantom imaging there can be no delay between speakers. In stereo, if you're moving a few inches imaging usually completely breaks down. Sounds snap to the nearest speaker. That's just how it works. If you don't care about imaging so be it. I do care about it because mixing engineers spend most of their time on it. monkumonkuSee me reply to Gary. If you're talking about acoustic music concerts there is no sweet spot. Just a lot of debate which seat is better than the other because different people like different seats. Instruments, music and room become one. Stereo reproduction is different. It can NOT reproduce the original acoustics at ANY point in the listening room. There's just ONE sweet spot. A completely different technology would be necessary to remove these constraints. jimThere's lots of options below $500 with devices having all the features I want - and many more - without the issues the UMC-200 has. The one feature missing is PEQ though. That's the only reason why I'm interested in the MC-700. gr8erimageEvery room is different. Some require less EQ some require more. Better have too much filters than too little. rbk123The only thing comical is people getting personal instead of addressing the topic. Is this how you would like to be remembered by others? Dan LaufmanNot much peace and love in your comments. I'm still wondering why you spend the time posting such comments but don't simply answer customer questions. I don't think you have anything to hide, do you?
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cawgijoe
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"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." - Yogi Berra
Posts: 5,035
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Post by cawgijoe on Dec 7, 2016 9:30:43 GMT -5
I hate to jump into these kinds of threads as they digress, but here is my .02:
1) If you are genuinely interested in this product and have not received answers to your questions to your satisfaction, call Emotiva and ask to speak to a technical person such as Keith or Lonnie.
2) You have a thirty day return window if you want to try the unit out and then decide it's not for you. See for yourself directly.
3) Wait for professional and user reviews.
Now some general observations:
It appears that you would be very happy with an inexpensive AVR under $500 if it had PEQ. Not something that I would be happy with as I have found build quality is not very good until you hit $1,000 with the standard brands.
Believe me, I have been there. Emotiva's products are well built, have a good warranty, and the company stands behind them.
I have met Dan Laufman and he is a very nice person. He can talk to you all day about this hobby we love. He is passionate about this company he has built and I'm sure his comments are based on frustration.
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Post by petew on Dec 7, 2016 10:39:57 GMT -5
I just applied the "block user" tool to you know who...
Back to your regularly scheduled programming.
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Post by urwi on Dec 7, 2016 10:44:51 GMT -5
Thanks for your feedback cawgijoe. 1) Are you suggesting Dan Laufman isn't up to speed how his pre-pros are working? I don't believe this is true. 2) A 30 day return window is not an option for international customers. 3) That's what I'm forced to do. I was hoping to get some answers directly from Emotiva but for whatever reason this didn't happen. Quite frankly I don't expect "professional" reviewers to provide the information I'd like to have though. They usually don't dive down deep enough. Most "reviews" are just marketing BS - "scratch my back and I'll scratch yours." Re "build quality" - Does the device meet specs? If yes, I don't care about build quality. Especially not in a pre-pro that is already outdated in 12-24 months. Plus, we've all read about UMCs failing despite the alleged build quality. I don't have any numbers how Emotiva's failure rate compares to "nice plastic AVR" makers. I wouldn't use it as an argument in favor or against Emotiva. Re "Dan is frustrated" - I wouldn't know why. Because of me asking questions how the MC-700 works? Me mentioning Outlaw? Me mentioning that there are cheaper options that have more features (but no PEQ)? Personal frustration is best dealt with via PM. I hate to jump into these kinds of threads as they digress, but here is my .02: 1) If you are genuinely interested in this product and have not received answers to your questions to your satisfaction, call Emotiva and ask to speak to a technical person such as Keith or Lonnie. 2) You have a thirty day return window if you want to try the unit out and then decide it's not for you. See for yourself directly. 3) Wait for professional and user reviews. Now some general observations: It appears that you would be very happy with an inexpensive AVR under $500 if it had PEQ. Not something that I would be happy with as I have found build quality is not very good until you hit $1,000 with the standard brands. Believe me, I have been there. Emotiva's products are well built, have a good warranty, and the company stands behind them. I have met Dan Laufman and he is a very nice person. He can talk to you all day about this hobby we love. He is passionate about this company he has built and I'm sure his comments are based on frustration. |
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Post by millst on Dec 7, 2016 11:10:33 GMT -5
So much hostility over a few asked questions, yet hardly any answers provided.
-tm
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Post by chaosrv on Dec 7, 2016 12:06:59 GMT -5
Urwi,
These are only my opinions. Your concerns are valid and I'd never say otherwise but this is not always the place to get the (best) answers, if they are even available. Yes, Dan & others can and do visit & respond to posts in this forum but this isn't and shouldn't be your primary method to get information on a new or upcoming product. For that you do need to contact Emotiva directly. I understand you are an international customer but if you need information you are not getting here, then that is what you need to do.
As respects your issues with the UMC-200. Some of your issues are legitimate issues but others seem more like "wishes." I don't mean this in a disparaging way just that the processor does work for most people but it cannot be everything to everyone. Compromises have to be made. That said, it does seem to work for many people. The UMC processors also tend to keep a much better resale value than the sub-$500 AVRs.
You did mention some AVRs with smaller distance settings but no PEQ. Perhaps you can't have both with this specific hardware? To reach a price point, decisions have to be made as to which features are more important than others. Perhaps this is all the DSP in the UMC-200 could handle when designed? Will the MC-700 be allow for finer control? We'll know more when it is in the field...hopefully, soon.
Dan is the president of Emotiva, does that mean he knows every single aspect of every single product? Maybe. Maybe not. He's a busy guy. While the distance steppings are clearly important to you and I respect that, it is a fairly minor detail to a lot people and probably not something the president needs to know. That's why others have suggested Lonnie, Keith, or someone else involved in the more technical aspects of the hardware.
If I could make a suggestion, if the MC-700 isn't a fit for your needs, you could always try one of the $500 AVRs and add in a miniDSP to handle PEQ. Quite a few people swear by them. It will also let you upgrade the AVR on an as-needed basis as new "must-have" features become available while still maintaining your PEQ with only (hopefully) slight tweaks when a new AVR/processor is introduced to your system.
Honestly, I hope the MC-700 addresses all of your concerns & needs and you become a happy loyal Emotiva customer. That said, if the product doesn't fit your needs or you cannot wait until more info known then you need to find an alternative even if only as a back-up plan so you can pull the trigger quickly if the MC-700 doesn't fit your needs.
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cawgijoe
Emo VIPs
"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." - Yogi Berra
Posts: 5,035
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Post by cawgijoe on Dec 7, 2016 12:23:28 GMT -5
Thanks for your feedback cawgijoe. 1) Are you suggesting Dan Laufman isn't up to speed how his pre-pros are working? I don't believe this is true. 2) A 30 day return window is not an option for international customers. 3) That's what I'm forced to do. I was hoping to get some answers directly from Emotiva but for whatever reason this didn't happen. Quite frankly I don't expect "professional" reviewers to provide the information I'd like to have though. They usually don't dive down deep enough. Most "reviews" are just marketing BS - "scratch my back and I'll scratch yours." Re "build quality" - Does the device meet specs? If yes, I don't care about build quality. Especially not in a pre-pro that is already outdated in 12-24 months. Plus, we've all read about UMCs failing despite the alleged build quality. I don't have any numbers how Emotiva's failure rate compares to "nice plastic AVR" makers. I wouldn't use it as an argument in favor or against Emotiva. Re "Dan is frustrated" - I wouldn't know why. Because of me asking questions how the MC-700 works? Me mentioning Outlaw? Me mentioning that there are cheaper options that have more features (but no PEQ)? Personal frustration is best dealt with via PM. I hate to jump into these kinds of threads as they digress, but here is my .02: 1) If you are genuinely interested in this product and have not received answers to your questions to your satisfaction, call Emotiva and ask to speak to a technical person such as Keith or Lonnie. 2) You have a thirty day return window if you want to try the unit out and then decide it's not for you. See for yourself directly. 3) Wait for professional and user reviews. Now some general observations: It appears that you would be very happy with an inexpensive AVR under $500 if it had PEQ. Not something that I would be happy with as I have found build quality is not very good until you hit $1,000 with the standard brands. Believe me, I have been there. Emotiva's products are well built, have a good warranty, and the company stands behind them. I have met Dan Laufman and he is a very nice person. He can talk to you all day about this hobby we love. He is passionate about this company he has built and I'm sure his comments are based on frustration. Did not know you were an international customer. I'm not suggesting anything about Dan and his knowledge of the product. Suggest you contact the tech folks at Emotiva for answers to your questions as others have also said. If and when you get answers from Emotiva tech and they don't satisfy you, please purchase a cheap AVR and add a miniDSP as suggested by chaosrv. |
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Post by urwi on Dec 7, 2016 12:50:46 GMT -5
chaosrvThank you very much for your thoughtful post. I would use external EQ any time but those cheaper AVRs don't come with pre outs. I don't understand why manufacturers consider pre-pros top of the line products. In my mind they should be entry line products. Without amps and pre outs such a device should be CHEAPER than anything having a built-in amp. Instead they are more expensive. Maybe something Emotiva could do? 1RU, HDMI video switching, 7.1 bitstream decoding, bass management, channel level and delay, D/A, volume control, NOTHING else - $299. Urwi, These are only my opinions. Your concerns are valid and I'd never say otherwise but this is not always the place to get the (best) answers, if they are even available. Yes, Dan & others can and do visit & respond to posts in this forum but this isn't and shouldn't be your primary method to get information on a new or upcoming product. For that you do need to contact Emotiva directly. I understand you are an international customer but if you need information you are not getting here, then that is what you need to do. As respects your issues with the UMC-200. Some of your issues are legitimate issues but others seem more like "wishes." I don't mean this in a disparaging way just that the processor does work for most people but it cannot be everything to everyone. Compromises have to be made. That said, it does seem to work for many people. The UMC processors also tend to keep a much better resale value than the sub-$500 AVRs. You did mention some AVRs with smaller distance settings but no PEQ. Perhaps you can't have both with this specific hardware? To reach a price point, decisions have to be made as to which features are more important than others. Perhaps this is all the DSP in the UMC-200 could handle when designed? Will the MC-700 be allow for finer control? We'll know more when it is in the field...hopefully, soon. Dan is the president of Emotiva, does that mean he knows every single aspect of every single product? Maybe. Maybe not. He's a busy guy. While the distance steppings are clearly important to you and I respect that, it is a fairly minor detail to a lot people and probably not something the president needs to know. That's why others have suggested Lonnie, Keith, or someone else involved in the more technical aspects of the hardware. If I could make a suggestion, if the MC-700 isn't a fit for your needs, you could always try one of the $500 AVRs and add in a miniDSP to handle PEQ. Quite a few people swear by them. It will also let you upgrade the AVR on an as-needed basis as new "must-have" features become available while still maintaining your PEQ with only (hopefully) slight tweaks when a new AVR/processor is introduced to your system. Honestly, I hope the MC-700 addresses all of your concerns & needs and you become a happy loyal Emotiva customer. That said, if the product doesn't fit your needs or you cannot wait until more info known then you need to find an alternative even if only as a back-up plan so you can pull the trigger quickly if the MC-700 doesn't fit your needs.
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