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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 27, 2016 11:00:58 GMT -5
How the tube amp interacts with the speaker (particularly in the bass) seems to be (for some unknown reason) SIGNIFICANTLY more affected by speaker position. I can put my XPA-1s on the Pendragons & move the speakers all over the place. The bass changes some (in terms of quantity - but NOT quality). In other words, wherever I place the speakers, the bass is pretty good (tight, tuneful) with solid state amps. I can get more or less bass by moving the speakers toward or away from the back wall (respectively), but the quality of the bass remains the same.
When the tube amps are driving the same speakers, position makes not just more difference, but LOTS more difference. Get the speakers a few inches farther from the back wall & the bass just disappears (What? Where did the bass go? Disappearing act!).. Get the speakers a few inches too close to the back wall, and the bass becomes mush (Loud, ugly, yucky mush). But when positioned properly, the tube bass is as just as good as the XPA-1s'. Surprise, surprise! And the difference isn't subtle. I KNOW when I hit the sweet spot.
Is the bass of all tube amps so dependent on speaker positioning? I don't know. Maybe it's an artifact of the flea-watt Heathkits - maybe not. But in my room, you got to get speaker positioning right if you want clean tube bass. Period.
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Post by Chuck Elliot on Aug 27, 2016 11:09:45 GMT -5
I am following this with great interest. My plan is to move the Emotive 1Ls to my HT system and replace them with the St-120 or the M125 mono blocks. One thing I wish is that there was an option for a balanced input. It seems stupid to have the use the single-ended inputs and then have the power amp run the signal into a phase split stage. See example: Link |
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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 27, 2016 11:13:54 GMT -5
Some tube makers offer balanced circuitry (Balanced Audio Technology - BAT - comes immediately to mind), but most don't. Some very high-end manufacturers (Conrad-Johnson, for example) refuse to offer balanced circuitry at all claiming that "it's a solution in search of a problem."
Despite the theoretical advantages of fully differential balanced circuitry, I'm getting perfectly fine results without it. So were I you, Chuck, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
Cordially - Boomzilla
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Post by novisnick on Aug 27, 2016 11:27:24 GMT -5
I am following this with great interest. My plan is to move the Emotive 1Ls to my HT system and replace them with the St-120 or the M125 mono blocks. One thing I wish is that there was an option for a balanced input. It seems stupid to have the use the single-ended inputs and then have the power amp run the signal into a phase split stage. See example: LinkBut it really works chuck , are you going to use the high efficiency you have? If so Im not so sure you'll need the full power of the M125 s. I did NOT say "monoblocks"  unless you're in a rather large room. You just Don't need as much volume to get the same enjoyment from a tube amp. |
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Post by novisnick on Aug 27, 2016 11:30:48 GMT -5
How the tube amp interacts with the speaker (particularly in the bass) seems to be (for some unknown reason) SIGNIFICANTLY more affected by speaker position. I can put my XPA-1s on the Pendragons & move the speakers all over the place. The bass changes some (in terms of quantity - but NOT quality). In other words, wherever I place the speakers, the bass is pretty good (tight, tuneful) with solid state amps. I can get more or less bass by moving the speakers toward or away from the back wall (respectively), but the quality of the bass remains the same. When the tube amps are driving the same speakers, position makes not just more difference, but LOTS more difference. Get the speakers a few inches farther from the back wall & the bass just disappears (What? Where did the bass go? Disappearing act!).. Get the speakers a few inches too close to the back wall, and the bass becomes mush (Loud, ugly, yucky mush). But when positioned properly, the tube bass is as just as good as the XPA-1s'. Surprise, surprise! And the difference isn't subtle. I KNOW when I hit the sweet spot. Is the bass of all tube amps so dependent on speaker positioning? I don't know. Maybe it's an artifact of the flea-watt Heathkits - maybe not. But in my room, you got to get speaker positioning right if you want clean tube bass. Period. I do think that the woofer control of a large Monoblock is the differing factor. It just has more control of the cone IMHO. One of the many reasons that I am a big proponent of large SS Monoblocks. YMMV  |
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Post by novisnick on Aug 27, 2016 12:18:20 GMT -5
So, audiobill Which are you and whom is Bob Latino? Igor or Dr. Frankanstein? |
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Post by simpleman68 on Aug 27, 2016 12:19:24 GMT -5
How the tube amp interacts with the speaker (particularly in the bass) seems to be (for some unknown reason) SIGNIFICANTLY more affected by speaker position. I can put my XPA-1s on the Pendragons & move the speakers all over the place. The bass changes some (in terms of quantity - but NOT quality). In other words, wherever I place the speakers, the bass is pretty good (tight, tuneful) with solid state amps. I can get more or less bass by moving the speakers toward or away from the back wall (respectively), but the quality of the bass remains the same. When the tube amps are driving the same speakers, position makes not just more difference, but LOTS more difference. Get the speakers a few inches farther from the back wall & the bass just disappears (What? Where did the bass go? Disappearing act!).. Get the speakers a few inches too close to the back wall, and the bass becomes mush (Loud, ugly, yucky mush). But when positioned properly, the tube bass is as just as good as the XPA-1s'. Surprise, surprise! And the difference isn't subtle. I KNOW when I hit the sweet spot. Is the bass of all tube amps so dependent on speaker positioning? I don't know. Maybe it's an artifact of the flea-watt Heathkits - maybe not. But in my room, you got to get speaker positioning right if you want clean tube bass. Period. Room gain I'd guess. I notice almost no change in bass quantity/volume with position changes. Then again, these were designed to fire directly at the listener with 0 dB off axis. Cool demo Legacy did while I was there sampling the Whispers. With me seated about 12' from the speakers he stepped in front of the right channel and you'd swear somebody pulled the plug on that speaker. It completely disappeared. When I had the Studio 100 V5s the bass changed dramatically with position changes. All this stuff makes me feel like I haven't learned very much over the years of playing with audio. Always so much to learn that I know so little about. I guess that's supposed to be the fun part but I'm oft too critical of myself. Scott |
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Post by audiobill on Aug 27, 2016 12:27:36 GMT -5
I am following this with great interest. My plan is to move the Emotive 1Ls to my HT system and replace them with the St-120 or the M125 mono blocks. One thing I wish is that there was an option for a balanced input. It seems stupid to have the use the single-ended inputs and then have the power amp run the signal into a phase split stage. See example: LinkHi Chuck, I can tell you that prior to using the M125s and ST120 in my system, I had the Audio Research VT100 and BAT VK75se in my system, running fully balanced. I notice no increase in noise or loss of detail in my current setup, running single ended of course. I measure less than 2mv of residual AC at speaker outputs. Best, |
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Post by bluemeanies on Aug 27, 2016 12:29:52 GMT -5
I am following this with great interest. My plan is to move the Emotive 1Ls to my HT system and replace them with the St-120 or the M125 mono blocks. One thing I wish is that there was an option for a balanced input. It seems stupid to have the use the single-ended inputs and then have the power amp run the signal into a phase split stage. See example: LinkJust a note...I am not familiar with your Heresy lll...my dedicated room which is not perfect b/c of the layout is 10' wide down to 8' wide, 25' long with a 6'4" & 7' ceiling. I am using the m125's with 4output tubes in triode mode. That's 65 watts per channel. I have also used only 2output tubes in triode at 35 watts with the B&W803diamonds. In comparing there is little difference. The sound quality with 2-4 output tubes is the same...sublime. As far as power there is that headroom using 4output tubes but honestly I do not need it. Some may say I am wasting my money and tube life....my answer is I like the warmth and glow of the amber light. |
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Post by novisnick on Aug 27, 2016 12:33:54 GMT -5
@simplman68 said, "All this stuff makes me feel like I haven't learned very much over the years of playing with audio. Always so much to learn that I know so little about. I guess that's supposed to be the fun part but I'm oft too critical of myself." Scott I couldn't agree with you more brotha!  It would seem that the more we learn, the more we realize we don't know! |
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Post by Axis on Aug 27, 2016 12:57:07 GMT -5
How the tube amp interacts with the speaker (particularly in the bass) seems to be (for some unknown reason) SIGNIFICANTLY more affected by speaker position. I can put my XPA-1s on the Pendragons & move the speakers all over the place. The bass changes some (in terms of quantity - but NOT quality). In other words, wherever I place the speakers, the bass is pretty good (tight, tuneful) with solid state amps. I can get more or less bass by moving the speakers toward or away from the back wall (respectively), but the quality of the bass remains the same. When the tube amps are driving the same speakers, position makes not just more difference, but LOTS more difference. Get the speakers a few inches farther from the back wall & the bass just disappears (What? Where did the bass go? Disappearing act!).. Get the speakers a few inches too close to the back wall, and the bass becomes mush (Loud, ugly, yucky mush). But when positioned properly, the tube bass is as just as good as the XPA-1s'. Surprise, surprise! And the difference isn't subtle. I KNOW when I hit the sweet spot. Is the bass of all tube amps so dependent on speaker positioning? I don't know. Maybe it's an artifact of the flea-watt Heathkits - maybe not. But in my room, you got to get speaker positioning right if you want clean tube bass. Period. Good, the tubes are effecting your bass drivers. It is a given it will effect you high frequency drivers. The trick was to get the woofers involved. Keep at it Boom and just like those XPA-1's take authority of the drivers so will a strong tube amp. All that I am telling you is just right off the top of my head from years and years of playing with tube gear. I can not give you a whole bunch of technical mumbo jumbo. I would not want to know all that stuff. I played with tube gear like a kid with toys from eight years old until I think about twenty six years old. I had to go save the world so I left it behind and I have never had tube gear since. I got memories though. |
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Post by Chuck Elliot on Aug 27, 2016 13:01:31 GMT -5
Just a note...I am not familiar with your Heresy lll...my dedicated room which is not perfect b/c of the layout is 10' wide down to 8' wide, 25' long with a 6'4" & 7' ceiling. I am using the m125's with 4output tubes in triode mode. That's 65 watts per channel. I have also used only 2output tubes in triode at 35 watts with the B&W803diamonds. In comparing there is little difference. The sound quality with 2-4 output tubes is the same...sublime. As far as power there is that headroom using 4output tubes but honestly I do not need it. Some may say I am wasting my money and tube life....my answer is I like the warmth and glow of the amber light. I tend to agree with you guys that the ST-120 will be more than enough. The speakers are my DIY on top of their F15HP subs in my 2 channel system, not the Heresy HT speakers. They're even more efficient.  |
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Post by Axis on Aug 27, 2016 13:13:27 GMT -5
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Post by Axis on Aug 27, 2016 13:15:24 GMT -5
Just a note...I am not familiar with your Heresy lll...my dedicated room which is not perfect b/c of the layout is 10' wide down to 8' wide, 25' long with a 6'4" & 7' ceiling. I am using the m125's with 4output tubes in triode mode. That's 65 watts per channel. I have also used only 2output tubes in triode at 35 watts with the B&W803diamonds. In comparing there is little difference. The sound quality with 2-4 output tubes is the same...sublime. As far as power there is that headroom using 4output tubes but honestly I do not need it. Some may say I am wasting my money and tube life....my answer is I like the warmth and glow of the amber light. I tend to agree with you guys that the ST-120 will be more than enough. The speakers are my DIY on top of their F15HP subs in my 2 channel system, not the Heresy HT speakers. They're even more efficient. Look at those big paper woofers. I think I have told you Chuck, I would love to hear these. |
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Post by novisnick on Aug 27, 2016 19:13:07 GMT -5
Better, stronger, faster, The six million dollar amp! Gentalman, we have the technology!!  |
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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 27, 2016 19:42:23 GMT -5
WAY too much excitement Nick! Just convince yourself that this amp don't exist - forget about it completely. Then, when it comes in, it'll be like Christmas in September! Surprise!!! Also, best not to let "anticipation bias" color your listening. Just play like it's MY amp (on loan to you) and you can listen impartially. Just tell audiobill NOT to send you photo updates or PMs about the amp's progress - Ask him NOT to tell you when it ships. A bit of "Zen-Nick" can be a good thing! Oh who am I kidding? Just keep us posted! LOL |
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Post by audiobill on Aug 27, 2016 19:44:30 GMT -5
Ok, whew, no more pics. Nick is a tough taskmaster!!!
Thanks, Boom
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Post by novisnick on Aug 28, 2016 8:40:24 GMT -5
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Post by novisnick on Aug 28, 2016 8:45:53 GMT -5
Coming soon!!
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Post by audiobill on Aug 28, 2016 9:30:21 GMT -5
Nick, your new amp is in test and sounding so good I will need to keep and listen to it for 2-3 weeks to be sure it's not an anomaly. Sorry!
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? 
My favorite "Transformer " movie!!! 
