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Post by 405x5 on Aug 26, 2016 8:32:08 GMT -5
A friend of mine who is a teacher/electrical engineer at a well known college once told me there is some audio gear out there that offers XLR connections, yet the internal wiring is such that there is no difference between the unbalanced rca connection or the XLR in other words just there as a marketing ploy.
Anyone here ever come across this?
Bill
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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 26, 2016 8:40:42 GMT -5
Hi Bill - Yes - it is COMMON. Lots of amps (and preamps) have XLR inputs / outputs but are NOT truly differential circuitry. Emotiva's gear, however, IS.
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Post by 405x5 on Aug 26, 2016 9:04:23 GMT -5
Hi Boom,
Alright as I figured, thank you for that.
Of course Emotiva has nothing to do with this.
I would not drag this gent into the conversation, but he is no slouch. Gets out to CEDA every year and with his reputation would never assert something like that without being able to substantiate.
Next time I get with him I'll pin him down so we can really have some fun!
Bill
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Post by 405x5 on Aug 26, 2016 9:05:38 GMT -5
Oh by the way, did you mean COMMON GROUND....
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KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,273
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Post by KeithL on Aug 26, 2016 11:18:18 GMT -5
Short answer..... most do. With our equipment, and most other equipment, it will work just fine (it just won't be a balanced connection). I've seen equipment where you might end up with half power, or nothing at all, depending on which input line is connected - but it's pretty rare. (There are also a few amplifiers where, due to how they're wired, you have to install a jumper in the XLR connector when you use the unbalanced input connector.) Keith what happens if its connected to the balanced input via xlr but the signal isn't actually fully balanced? |
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klinemj
Emo VIPs 
Official Emofest Scribe
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Post by klinemj on Aug 26, 2016 13:02:32 GMT -5
Hi Boom, Alright as I figured, thank you for that. Of course Emotiva has nothing to do with this. I would not drag this gent into the conversation, but he is no slouch. Gets out to CEDA every year and with his reputation would never assert something like that without being able to substantiate. Next time I get with him I'll pin him down so we can really have some fun! Bill Well, actually...some Emotiva gear does have xlr connectors without having the internal circuitry fully capable of taking advantage of it. If you look at their website, you will see different wording on different products. Some will say the gear accepts xlr inputs or "choice of RCA and xlr inputs"...such as the xpa gen 3's. Others will say something like "Fully discrete, fully balanced, Differential Reference™ design" such as the xpa-1 or be billed as a "differential reference" product such as the xsp-1 or "fully differential" such as the DC-1. The first type are not balanced, but accept XLR inputs. The second group are balanced circuitry. It can be confusing, and anyone wondering which options are which should always ask. I do not consider this a marketing gimmick because xlr connectors have certain benefits...like the locking mechanism. But, I would understand if others felt it was a gimmick. Yet another example of "caveat emptor" Mark |
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Post by 405x5 on Aug 26, 2016 14:05:42 GMT -5
"Well, actually...some Emotiva gear does have xlr connectors without having the internal circuitry fully capable of taking advantage of it."
Hi Mark,
Thanks for pointing that out. Clearly Emotiva makes the distinction on their products regarding XLR internal.
The discussion I had was in regards to manufacturers other than Emo. That have "unbalanced" XLR but fail to disclose that to the end user.
15 years ago when I bought my first processor I would not have known to ask such a question.
So again here is my question more (hopefully) clearly stated.
Do you or anyone else know of a company that has XLR connections that are claimed to be balanced when in fact internally they are not.
No biggie here, by the way just for amusement!
Bill
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Post by garbulky on Aug 26, 2016 14:33:30 GMT -5
Most people don't know to ask the question and Emotiva doesn't spell it out. However they use the term dual differential with their XLR capable amps that are unbalanced. Here they are talking about their inputs. But I can see how people would see that as being fully balanced. However... when it really is fully balanced, Emotiva is more clear about it and uses the term differential reference or quad differential or simply balanced.
I'm not that upset about it because Emotiva used to be the cheapest fully balanced game in town anyway. I think it still is too
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Post by 405x5 on Aug 26, 2016 15:53:43 GMT -5
OTHER THAN EMOTIVA........
Can anyone name another company (not Emotiva) that boasts XLR connections that are not balanced, when the end user would be expecting that they are?
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Post by garbulky on Aug 26, 2016 17:24:12 GMT -5
OTHER THAN EMOTIVA........ Can anyone name another company (not Emotiva) that boasts XLR connections that are not balanced, when the end user would be expecting that they are? ATI technologies. They are still more expensive than Emotiva. Both their multi channel and their stereo amps are fully balanced. Balanced Audio Technologies use balanced drive in their products. Audio GD uses balanced amps in their master and precision series. Schiit Audio Ragnarok is a balanced speaker amp. Edit: Ooops: you meant XLR connections that are not balanced. Oh well any reciever that takes XLR inputs for one. Most multichannel amplifiers are also not balanced. I wager about 95% of them. Unless it specifically says they are balanced...they are not. It's because it usually requires close to twice the parts to make it balanced. |
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Post by 405x5 on Aug 26, 2016 18:01:54 GMT -5
Very helpful indeed, thank you.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 27, 2016 10:47:14 GMT -5
A friend of mine who is a teacher/electrical engineer at a well known college once told me there is some audio gear out there that offers XLR connections, yet the internal wiring is such that there is no difference between the unbalanced rca connection or the XLR in other words just there as a marketing ploy. Anyone here ever come across this? Bill There are many examples of amps with XLR "Balanced" connections that don't have balanced amplifier circuitry; my VTL MB-450's are an example of this. I however wouldn't call it a 'marketing ploy' because they do have balanced input circuitry, therefor there is still an advantage to using a balanced connection between the preamp and power amp, as this link would still reject induced noise. Depending on your situation there may not be an audible advantage, in my case using a 20' cable there is. Edit: Another lesser advantage of XLR's is the locking connector. There are situations I've encountered (rolling shelves), where an RCA connector might come loose, and an XLR will remain locked in place (very significant on a power amp while it's on). However, not all XLR connectors lock, my VTL inputs do lock, but my XPA-7's don't, I don't think the XSP-1's lock either, but the XMC-1's do, the new XPA G3 also lock! With female connectors you can tell if they'll lock by noting the press tab. Here's a non locking XPA-7 followed by a locking XPA G3   |
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Post by knucklehead on Aug 27, 2016 12:40:42 GMT -5
There are many examples of amps with XLR "Balanced" connections that don't have balanced amplifier circuitry; my VTL MB-450's are an example of this. I however wouldn't call it a 'marketing ploy' because they do have balanced input circuitry, therefor there is still an advantage to using a balanced connection between the preamp and power amp, as this link would still reject induced noise. Depending on your situation there may not be an audible advantage, in my case using a 20' cable there is. Edit: Another lesser advantage of XLR's is the locking connector. There are situations I've encountered (rolling shelves), where an RCA connector might come loose, and an XLR will remain locked in place (very significant on a power amp while it's on). However, not all XLR connectors lock, my VTL inputs do lock, but my XPA-7's don't, I don't think the XSP-1's lock either, but the XMC-1's do, the new XPA G3 also lock! With female connectors you can tell if they'll lock by noting the press tab. Here's a non locking XPA-7 followed by a locking XPA G3 The XSP-1 does have locking XLR - both inputs and outputs have the locking mechanism. Mine is a gen 1. FWIW I'm fairly sure the UPA-1's are not fully differential (or whatever the actual term is for the dual circuitry) using the XLR inputs. Either way it matters not at all for my setup. And the RCA inputs sound just dandy. Over long runs (15' or more) the XLR might outperform the RCA cable but for short runs there is nothing to be gained other than more secure connections. However - in over 50 years of using RCA connections I've yet to have an RCA cable simply hop off it's jack on it's own. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 27, 2016 16:47:35 GMT -5
Speaking of locking, have you ever seen the SpeakON connectors used with pro speakers? GREAT wire connections - can't pull out - MUCH better than banana plugs or spades IMHO:  |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 28, 2016 17:55:32 GMT -5
Speaking of locking, have you ever seen the SpeakON connectors used with pro speakers? GREAT wire connections - can't pull out - MUCH better than banana plugs or spades IMHO: Yes, great connectors, I put them on my guitar speakers last summer. Nice thing is that they'll accept either the newer and more positive Speakon connector, or an old school 1/4" phone plug.    |
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