4 Ohms with BasX TA-100

[KeithL]

To answer your question, the amp in the TA-100 is quite similar to the one in the Mini-X (and the new BasX A-100).
They are both Class A/B amplifiers, with linear power supplies, and sound quite similar.
(And, yes, the amp in the BasX A-100 is almost the same as the old Mini-X; the main differences are that we added a headphone output, and it's quieter.)

The TA-100 is a well designed amplifier, and it sounds very nice, and very clean, when you play music through it - even when you play it loud.
I've had one sitting on my desk for the last few days, and it sounds a lot more powerful than you'd think from the ratings.
And, like most well-designed solid state amps, it has very low distortion until right below clipping.....

OK.....  enough with the silliness.......

The TA-100 has an amplifier in it, and a preamp, and a good quality phono preamp, and a nice DAC.....
It has analog line level inputs for your analog stuff....
You can connect it to your computer via USB, without drivers, and it even has other digital inputs for other stuff......
And it has an FM tuner as well (OK, it's a reciever... we just don't like to use "the 'r' word".)
It has plenty of power to satisfy most people, and sounds really good with most speakers - including ours.

It's a really nice little unit.... and it has all the features you really need....
Forget the specs already......
If you've read this far, and you even think it might be what you need, then I can't imagine your being disappointed when you actually hear it.

And, if you really think you need more power, then check out the PT-100 and a separate A-300 amp.....
(The PT-100 is the same thing minus the amps.)

Sept 1, 2016 18:07:42 GMT -5 nussey said:

Hello Everyone!

I have been looking at the new BasX TA-100 integrated amp, and I just wanted to ask if anyone here had any information on how the amp stage might compare to the old Mini-X A-100. I assumed (possibly incorrectly) that the amplifier stage of the new TA-100 integrated would be essentially the same thing as the new BasX A-100 amp that has yet to be posted on the website. I also assumed that the new A-100 would be very similar in performance to the old Mini-X.  However, the new TA-100 is quoting 1% THD into 4 ohms. Normally, I don't set too much stock in specs, but that seems to be in the range that even the non-audiophiles out there would notice.

This would seem to indicate that the amp stage is not the same quality as the dedicated amp that came before it (which would honestly make sense given the incredibly affordable  price point of the integrated), or am I misunderstanding something? 

[gzubeck]

Keith, just wondering if there's more capacitance in the power supply supply of the ta 100 vs the mini x? Also, do you think the short run from dac to power amp helps with improving signal strength to amp section in ta 100? Is there less stray electric interference with pt 100 vs the ta 100? About the same or quieter in pt 100?

[Deleted]

Sept 3, 2016 15:48:39 GMT -5 KeithL said:

Enough already with the "let's put the specs under a microscope". routine...

With tube equipment, the distortion starts out pretty low at low power levels, then rises gradually until you get near clipping.
With push-pull tube equipment it's still usually a curved line, and still reasonably low overall (although a lot higher than with solid state equipment);
with SET tube equipment, it's sometimes more like a straight line - quarter distortion at a quarter power, half distortion at half power.
(The proper name for that is "a monotonic distortion curve".)

With virtually all modern solid state equipment, including ours, and including the BasX amps, the distortion starts out very low....
and it STAYS very low for most of the amplifier's power range, then rises quite suddenly as you get near clipping.
And this is what the distortion curves on the BAsX amps look like in general.

So, while a SET tube amp might be rated 1% THD @ 1 watt,  3% THD @ 3 watts, and 10% THD @ 10 watts....
A typical (similar) solid state amp would be 0.01% THD @ 1 watt, 0.02% THD @ 2 watts, 0.02% THD @ 9 watts, and 1 % THD at 10 watts....
(and probably 10% THD @ 11 watts if it's really a 10 watt amp).

Therefore (and I don't have the actual printouts in front of me here at home... just a hungry cat)......
The THD curve on the And the THD will probably be a LITTLE BIT higher overall into 4 ohms than into 8 ohms, which is also pretty normal.
is going to look pretty much like that.....
It stays very low over most of its power range, then rises suddenly just before clipping...
So, if you look at the rated power at 1% THD, you'll find that the amp delivers 90% or 95% of that power at 0.1% THD (or maybe 0.2% THD).
And the THD will probably be a LITTLE BIT higher overall into 4 ohms than into 8 ohms, which is also pretty normal.

I don't know the exact numbers, and I don't know why we decided to rate it at 1% on that particular one.
As you've probably noticed, we tend to vacillate between "rating things lower down the curve" and "rating them at 1% like most other people do".....

PLEASE try not to obsess over it.....

I'm not obsessing over it.  No microscope, I (unlike many folks) just actually pay attention to the listed specs.  I'm just picky about amp specs being accurate and not inflated to be able to post higher power levels into 4 ohms.  Your previous amps never used clipping at rated THD into 4 ohms and never exceeded 0.2% THD into 4 ohms.  I realize these new BASX amps are relatively light weight, smaller and much less expensive/entry level and will be fine for 8 ohm speakers also some 4 ohm speakers.  However, I also know they are not that beefy into 4 ohms and I would not except them to be and would not use them to drive my Emo ERM-1's, etc.  I just wish you would not fudge/inflate the power by listing it at 1% THD (clipping and sometimes audible distortion) rather than a reasonable and non-audible 0.25% or so and give that power output, even if it is closer to 50 watts than 90 watts (where is the AP test, I know most other people do none).  Yes, distortion in the 0.5 to 1.0% can be audible.  IMO, 50 watts RMS per channel (20 Hz – 20 kHz; THD < 0.02%; into 8 Ohms) is impressive for a current integrated amp in this class and fine for most fairly sensitive speakers in reasonable sized rooms at  fairly loud levels.  I'm just not very confident into 4 ohms due to the specs.            

And the THD will probably be a LITTLE BIT higher overall into 4 ohms than into 8 ohms, which is also pretty normal.

Little bit?/normal?  .....  Emo rates the TA-100 into 4 ohms at 1.0% THD and into 8 ohms at 0.02% THD.   That's 50 times more distortion into 4 ohms versus 8 ohms as rated! 

[Axis]

Sept 3, 2016 19:23:11 GMT -5 @tllfkacn said:

Sept 3, 2016 15:48:39 GMT -5 KeithL said:

Enough already with the "let's put the specs under a microscope". routine...

With tube equipment, the distortion starts out pretty low at low power levels, then rises gradually until you get near clipping.
With push-pull tube equipment it's still usually a curved line, and still reasonably low overall (although a lot higher than with solid state equipment);
with SET tube equipment, it's sometimes more like a straight line - quarter distortion at a quarter power, half distortion at half power.
(The proper name for that is "a monotonic distortion curve".)

With virtually all modern solid state equipment, including ours, and including the BasX amps, the distortion starts out very low....
and it STAYS very low for most of the amplifier's power range, then rises quite suddenly as you get near clipping.
And this is what the distortion curves on the BAsX amps look like in general.

So, while a SET tube amp might be rated 1% THD @ 1 watt,  3% THD @ 3 watts, and 10% THD @ 10 watts....
A typical (similar) solid state amp would be 0.01% THD @ 1 watt, 0.02% THD @ 2 watts, 0.02% THD @ 9 watts, and 1 % THD at 10 watts....
(and probably 10% THD @ 11 watts if it's really a 10 watt amp).

Therefore (and I don't have the actual printouts in front of me here at home... just a hungry cat)......
The THD curve on the And the THD will probably be a LITTLE BIT higher overall into 4 ohms than into 8 ohms, which is also pretty normal.
is going to look pretty much like that.....
It stays very low over most of its power range, then rises suddenly just before clipping...
So, if you look at the rated power at 1% THD, you'll find that the amp delivers 90% or 95% of that power at 0.1% THD (or maybe 0.2% THD).
And the THD will probably be a LITTLE BIT higher overall into 4 ohms than into 8 ohms, which is also pretty normal.

I don't know the exact numbers, and I don't know why we decided to rate it at 1% on that particular one.
As you've probably noticed, we tend to vacillate between "rating things lower down the curve" and "rating them at 1% like most other people do".....

PLEASE try not to obsess over it.....

I'm not obsessing over it.  No microscope, I (unlike many folks) just actually pay attention to the listed specs.  I'm just picky about amp specs being accurate and not inflated to be able to post higher power levels into 4 ohms.  Your previous amps never used clipping at rated THD into 4 ohms and never exceeded 0.2% THD into 4 ohms.  I realize these new BASX amps are relatively light weight, smaller and much less expensive/entry level and will be fine for 8 ohm speakers also some 4 ohm speakers.  However, I also know they are not that beefy into 4 ohms and I would not except them to be and would not use them to drive my Emo ERM-1's, etc.  I just wish you would not fudge/inflate the power by listing it at 1% THD (clipping and sometimes audible distortion) rather than a reasonable and non-audible 0.25% or so and give that power output, even if it is closer to 50 watts than 90 watts (where is the AP test, I know most other people do none).  Yes, distortion in the 0.5 to 1.0% can be audible.  IMO, 50 watts RMS per channel (20 Hz – 20 kHz; THD < 0.02%; into 8 Ohms) is impressive for a current integrated amp in this class and fine for most fairly sensitive speakers in reasonable sized rooms at  fairly loud levels.  I'm just not very confident into 4 ohms due to the specs.            

And the THD will probably be a LITTLE BIT higher overall into 4 ohms than into 8 ohms, which is also pretty normal.

Little bit?/normal?  .....  Emo rates the TA-100 into 4 ohms at 1.0% THD and into 8 ohms at 0.02% THD.   That's 50 times more distortion into 4 ohms versus 8 ohms! 

I agree Chuckie. There is not need for it. Post the lower output Emotiva ! Do not Puff yourself up !

[leonski]

You'll be FINE @4ohms. The reason for the 150@8 300@4 is that 'doubling' is seen as a desireable goal. The Marketing Guy thought it was a good idea.

3 extra points:

First, run under distortion levels, it'll be difficult to distinguish THIS amp from other amps of similar power ALSO run beneath distortion power levels. The glitch there is the fact that SOME speakers are VERY difficult loads with high reactance and will suck even a very robust amp dry. I suspect these are ALSO the most expensive speakers. You might THINK you have a difficult to drive speaker, but you probably DON'T.

Secondly, giving a distorion number is another one of those near-meaningless numbers. My old Carver Cube was 0.5% and lot of the old BEST tube amps were just under 1%. Nobody ever complained about 'distortion'. And don't forget that the human ear is not equally sensitive to distortion at All Frequencies or loudness levels. (See Fletcher-Munson for 'equal loudness' contours)

Third, The response to EVEN and ODD ordered harmonics seems to define distortion for most listeners. SS and Tube differ in the production of this distortion, generally.

I'll let YOU the reader do some research on your own about the above points.

[nussey]

Sept 3, 2016 16:25:28 GMT -5 KeithL said:

To answer your question, the amp in the TA-100 is quite similar to the one in the Mini-X (and the new BasX A-100).
They are both Class A/B amplifiers, with linear power supplies, and sound quite similar.
(And, yes, the amp in the BasX A-100 is almost the same as the old Mini-X; the main differences are that we added a headphone output, and it's quieter.)

The TA-100 is a well designed amplifier, and it sounds very nice, and very clean, when you play music through it - even when you play it loud.
I've had one sitting on my desk for the last few days, and it sounds a lot more powerful than you'd think from the ratings.
And, like most well-designed solid state amps, it has very low distortion until right below clipping.....

OK.....  enough with the silliness.......

The TA-100 has an amplifier in it, and a preamp, and a good quality phono preamp, and a nice DAC.....
It has analog line level inputs for your analog stuff....
You can connect it to your computer via USB, without drivers, and it even has other digital inputs for other stuff......
And it has an FM tuner as well (OK, it's a reciever... we just don't like to use "the 'r' word".)
It has plenty of power to satisfy most people, and sounds really good with most speakers - including ours.

It's a really nice little unit.... and it has all the features you really need....
Forget the specs already......
If you've read this far, and you even think it might be what you need, then I can't imagine your being disappointed when you actually hear it.

And, if you really think you need more power, then check out the PT-100 and a separate A-300 amp.....
(The PT-100 is the same thing minus the amps.

Wow, this thread really blew up, that was not my intention at all. I am new here, and I absolutely believe that all of the Emotiva amps will blow away my expectations! I already own a Mini-X, and absolutely love it. My question was more of academic curiosity. My room mate picked up a pair of Klipsch KG 4s, and was looking for a good amp to power them. We looked around for quite a while, and even tried another brand, but it ended up being garbage compared to my Mini-X, even in the same price point (go Emotiva!). We were waiting for the new A-100 to get listed on your website, but he managed to talk himself up to spending up for the TA-100.

However, when looking at the specs, I noticed the 1% THD number. I am no where near an expert on those things, so my question was not accusatory, but genuinely curious. For his purposed, the new A-100 would work fine as well, so I wanted to know which one would preform better at 4 ohms, especially since he will be almost driving it wide open every now and then. If I am interpreting the discussion correctly, then it seems like they are technically different (as in the TA-100 is not just a PT-100 and an A-100 in the same box), but that they should sound similar? We tried my amp out on the KG-4s (4 ohms), and they sounded amazing. Even if the difference is marginal, it still might be worth getting the new A-100, since it is the amp stage that he is mainly looking for, but that really depends on how big the difference is.

For whatever it is worth, I am sure the TA-100 is absolutely amazing, and I will certainly be recommending it all over the place. Adding a $250 amp to an already insanely low priced pre amp for only $100 bucks would be quite a feat. And I really just wanted to make sure that waiting for the A-100 wouldn't be the better move for him. I really don't understand the specs, and I wasn't trying to cast aspersions. My only doubt came from the price point, and I was really just looking for a comparison of the two.