Emotiva RMC-1 processor

[lrobertson]

I kind of worry it will be one of those things like if the engineer wants to stay with what they are familiar with, which would be Dolby trueHd, then they might utilize the bed tools without the process of putting in individual sounds as objects with xyz. That would make the mix a lot more room dependent. It’s possible that just like ps3 game developers didn’t max out their capabilities till the ps4 came out I wonder if there may be any lag. I’d imagine the more the object coding is utilized the more scalable and closer to the intent of Atmos it would be. I just hope the object codec isn’t the equivalent of a single good visual 3d effect on a 3d Blu-ray.

[Gary Cook]

Apr 21, 2018 19:48:22 GMT -5 lrobertson said:

I kind of worry it will be one of those things like if the engineer wants to stay with what they are familiar with, which would be Dolby trueHd, then they might utilize the bed tools without the process of putting in individual sounds as objects with xyz. That would make the mix a lot more room dependent. It’s possible that just like ps3 game developers didn’t max out their capabilities till the ps4 came out I wonder if there may be any lag. I’d imagine the more the object coding is utilized the more scalable and closer to the intent of Atmos it would be. I just hope the object codec isn’t the equivalent of a single good visual 3d effect on a 3d Blu-ray.

The guys are hard to catch up with as they move around for location work a lot, but from what I can gather it's more to do with the space limitations they are given. The two sound engineers that I know both really like Atmos, although they prefer DTSX for its speed of mixing. I don't get any impression that they feel restricted by their history, plus they have been mixing Amtos tracks for a few years now for commercial theatres, so its not all that new to them.

Cheers
Gary

[cwt]

Apr 21, 2018 19:16:10 GMT -5 lrobertson said:

I thought the objects were the easiest because it’s the processor that can use Atmos code to decipher where to play with it’s supported setup because it knows our Atmos supported speaker layouts (unless you get Trinnov then it extrapolates the information through a proprietary method rather than the official Atmos process so that it can make whatever speaker layout you tell it to.

I recall S Durani @ avs forum saying the full atmos mix is on the disc ; its just what the processor can render that determines what channels it plays to based on set speaker options .No upmixing . if a LW isn't present say the object just gets steered to the main L speaker . If a mid ceiling isn't there it goes to the front height ; just a tad less precise steering that's all is the way I see it ; more speakers better steering similarly as Keith described how the speaker zones work..

This spatial coding is not a channel-based, matrix-encoding system like Dolby Pro Logic® II or Dolby Pro Logic IIz. Instead, this fundamentally new coding technique allows all the audio objects created for the cinema to be used in the home theater. Nothing is lost.
Initially, home theaters will be able to play Dolby Atmos content on Blu-ray™ discs or through streaming video services. No matter the source, when a Dolby Atmos stream is fed to a Dolby Atmos compatible A/V receiver, the receiver will render the object-based audio to your home theater’s unique speaker configuration to precisely recreate the sound the filmmakers intended. Because the object-based audio mix is delivered to home theaters, Dolby Atmos has the ability to adapt to extremely diverse speaker setups,systems with five speakers on the floor and two speakers producing overhead sound to Dolby Atmos supersystems with 24 speakers on the floor and 10 overhead speakers.

The trinnov altitude is indeed a special case ; it looks like its using true atmos xyz rendering rather than the set dolby speaker positions everyone else uses but is in fact using a proprietary 3d speaker remapping algorithm .. This isn't linked to atmos per se ;

The result is a speaker array that can be optimized for any room and any format—including Atmos, DTS:X, and Auro-3D—which can be a life-saver in spaces where ideal speaker placement isn’t practical. As Trinnov puts it: “The remapping process automatically distributes the signals to recover the original 3D sound stage, as intended by the artist.”

Because audio that originates from overhead is a key contributor to the Dolby Atmos experience, Dolby recommends using at least two speakers to generate overhead audio elements. This gives the minimal ability to move audio from left to right above the listener. The addition of four or more speakers to generate overhead audio elements provides the ability to move audio left to right and front to back above the listener. This provides greater precision to the Dolby Atmos experience.
However, Dolby Atmos content is not tied to any specific playback configuration. Whether you have a full 7.1.4 system or a 5.1.2 system, your receiver will get the same content and play it back in a way that takes full advantage of your specific setup.

[Gary Cook]

What's a "full Atmos mix"? Is that 8, 12, 16, 24 or 36? The way I look at it is that "full" is dependant on what the engineer puts on the disc, or more precisely what they are able to physically fit on the disc.

I'm not sure that I understand the real world listening difference between the effects of up mixing and down mixing. If the disc really has a 36 layout (like a commercial theatre) and I only have 8, does that not require down mixing? If the disc only has 12 (keeping in mind the most common I have seen on discs is 7.1.4) and I have say a 16 layout (the not so common on discs 9.1.6) then does that not require up mixing?

As a size comparison the Digital Cinema Package for Avatar 3D was around 400 gigabytes that's ~8 times the size of the Avatar 4K BD disc.


Cheers
Gary

[mgbpuff]

It's my understanding that the Atmos metadata concerning object sounds convey xyz coordinates. It is the rendering software that decides how to achieve this positioning with the given speaker layout. There is no up mixing or down mixing involved, it's a blend of sounds sent to existing speakers to achieve the intended position of the sound. The more speakers, the more computational power required of the renderer.

[Gary Cook]

Apr 22, 2018 7:59:04 GMT -5 mgbpuff said:

It's my understanding that the Atmos metadata concerning object sounds convey xyz coordinates. It is the rendering software that decides how to achieve this positioning with the given speaker layout. There is no up mixing or down mixing involved, it's a blend of sounds sent to existing speakers to achieve the intended position of the sound. The more speakers, the more computational power required of the renderer.

Whilst I don't work in the industry I have seen a more recent (than Avatar) DCP for a single Atmos movie that was 1 terabyte, the smallest I have seen was 750 gigabytes. How does a 1tb movie fit on a blu ray disc without loosing something?

If I have a 5.1.2 Atmos layout how does that work without down mixing, matrixing, reduced rendering or do we call it something else? Isn't that just inventing a different name for the same effect?


Cheers
Gary

[lrobertson]

That’s an interesting point. Maybe there is a lot of extra embedded information needed for easier manipulation pre finished product or maybe Atmos might break it down so instead of xyz datapoints that span an entire sphere it gets broken down and simplified into the 24 lower zones and 10 upper zones. Trinnov could just unravel that and reprocess this on their own for their own needs. Shot in the dark. But as I read it objects created are always capable of 24.1.10 accurate playback. It’s the bedded channels that don’t belong in that same xyz derived category. A 7.1.4 master I assume only involves the beds or maybe that is just the description of the room it was mastered in but their system would still have their xyz data for larger systems.

[lrobertson]

Maybe one of the best ways to look at the object coding is if a sound is at left 15 degrees from center up 15 degrees from center then you have the center and left channel along with the front left height imaging the sound. Moving left to 45 degrees it either pans all the way to the left speaker from center or if you have a wide then it’s simply passed from the center to the left speaker and the wide then gets the info to keep the accurate imaging with the 45 angle. Sounds are just passed off at different points both depending on how many lower and upper channels your room is capable and set up for. This is also why using your pre pro approved speaker layout is important. Mess with those angles and the sound panning will never be as intended unless You have trinnov and tell it your left wide speaker is at 45 degrees left and your left front is 15 degrees left. Then it would be capable of making its adjustements. Now for the bedded channels that don’t have the xyz info I don’t know how that is handled.

[mgbpuff]

I have no idea, but I think that perhaps DCP files contain multi versions to accommodate a plethora of cinema distributions and even future sophistications such as 8K. having said that Bluray discs are recorded according to data reducing codecs such as HD.264, h.265, and the different Mpegs which are all lossy. The Audio is a small portion of the video storage requirements. Besides, words such as up mixing, down mixing, matrixing, and rendering are too general in nature to imply anything specific.

[mgbpuff]

The ultimate Atmos system will be accommodating to all types of speaker placements. It will have enough processing power to test every connected speaker and retain its location in the user sound field and then use that information in reconstructing the originally intended object oriented sounds and locations as they move throughout the original hemispherical audio model. As of now, no existing combination of hardware and software is doing this although perhaps Trinnov is close.

[lrobertson]

What he said haha

[lrobertson]

Is there anyone familiar with the best layout for 6 independently controlled subs for the rmc-1? Would unison have an influence? I was hoping to at least get the subs set up for my room and would like to stick with a generic placement say 2 front and 2 rear 1/4 in and maybe a left and right sub 1/2 way in.. Not sure if it would be better say having 3 rear and front at 1/4,1/2,1/4. I have a single slanted cieling going from 9ft to 12ft lengthwise. The room is about 15.5’ wide by 24’ long.

[usxplong]

Now only if Emo tells us when the damn RMC-1 will be out, since it was supposed to be released by end of last month.
Emo should update people about this since it is too close to be released.
At this stage their lack of communication with consumers tells me they are at least a few months behind as always.

[foggy1956]

Apr 22, 2018 12:08:00 GMT -5 lrobertson said:

Is there anyone familiar with the best layout for 6 independently controlled subs for the rmc-1? Would unison have an influence? I was hoping to at least get the subs set up for my room and would like to stick with a generic placement say 2 front and 2 rear 1/4 in and maybe a left and right sub 1/2 way in.. Not sure if it would be better say having 3 rear and front at 1/4,1/2,1/4. I have a single slanted cieling going from 9ft to 12ft lengthwise. The room is about 15.5’ wide by 24’ long.

REW has a room simulator that lets you move hypothetical sub placement around.  Bit of a learning curve but may be useful.

[lrobertson]

Thanks. I’ll check it out

[Gary Cook]

The "bedded channels" are Dolby True HD, so that means 7.1.

Cheers
Gary

[richb]

Apr 22, 2018 16:01:02 GMT -5 Gary Cook said:

The "bedded channels" are Dolby True HD, so that means 7.1.

"bedded channels" sounds so sexy...

- Rich

[lrobertson]

I’m trying to use the left and right speakers on the room emulator as subs allowing for 6 subs but it doesn’t seem to give me consistent results. I can’t interchange them with 1-4 subs for the same results. Playing around though it seems like 3 in front and 3 in back is the best all around result. Thanks

[lrobertson]

Apr 22, 2018 16:01:02 GMT -5 Gary Cook said:

The "bedded channels" are Dolby True HD, so that means 7.1.

Cheers
Gary

Granted though the theaters and we will receive the same general Atmos info so an intended 7 channel system I doubt is the case. For theaters running on a lot more than 7.1.4 I’m willing to bet the bedded channels don’t have the localized (object) information that matters. So essentially it’s dolby trueHd with the diffuse non localized sound stages meaning it probably doesn’t matter much what’s done with that information to expand it. It’s the object codec that is special about Atmos from what I’m gathering or else Dolby is really misrepresenting their tech.

[Gary Cook]

Apr 22, 2018 16:37:45 GMT -5 richb said:

Apr 22, 2018 16:01:02 GMT -5 Gary Cook said:

The "bedded channels" are Dolby True HD, so that means 7.1.

"bedded channels" sounds so sexy...
- Rich

What about 7.1 that's more impressive than ménage à trois that's only 3.1

Cheers
Gary