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Post by Gary Cook on Apr 22, 2018 19:27:20 GMT -5
The "bedded channels" are Dolby True HD, so that means 7.1. Granted though the theaters and we will receive the same general Atmos info so an intended 7 channel system I doubt is the case. For theaters running on a lot more than 7.1.4 I’m willing to bet the bedded channels don’t have the localized (object) information that matters. So essentially it’s dolby trueHd with the diffuse non localized sound stages meaning it probably doesn’t matter much what’s done with that information to expand it. It’s the object codec that is special about Atmos from what I’m gathering or else Dolby is really misrepresenting their tech. From the Thor Ragnarok 4K Atmos BD disc specs; I just can't rationalise how the Thor Ragnarok Digital Cinema Package at around 1 terabyte isn't going to have "more Atmos" than my 4K Atmos BD disc that is a dual layer and has 66 GB maximum. Speaking of Thor Ragnarok, for Bonzo , the Atmos remix of Led Zepplin’s “Immigrant Song” is fantastic, just turn it up.  Cheers Gary |
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Post by lrobertson on Apr 22, 2018 19:42:22 GMT -5
Freeing Sound from Channels—the Dolby Atmos Concept
Traditional surround soundtracks must confine all sounds to the 5.1 or 7.1 channels of a typical home theater setup. If a scene requires, say, a helicopter taking off, that sound has to be assigned to specific channels and mixed together with other sounds.
While that helicopter can move across channels, it can't go above you. You hear it only from the small number of predetermined locations defined by the speaker setup, not as you'd hear it in real life.
Dolby Atmos, by contrast, frees sound from channels. It's the first cinematic audio format in which sounds exist as individual entities, called audio objects. In Dolby Atmos, any sound—the helicopter, a car screeching around a corner, a melodic bird call—can exist as an independent audio object, free of channel restrictions. They can be precisely placed and moved anywhere in your room, including overhead, to flow above and around you in three-dimensional space.
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Post by lrobertson on Apr 22, 2018 19:45:30 GMT -5
I wouldn’t say they were identical but they do have identical processes for decoding dependent on room layout. That there was their most basic translation I’ve seen and I’ve read a lot more technical than that and watched engineers use a sphere type screen on a program to position sound. Don’t know how theatrical that was as it was an old YouTube video around the time it was first announced.
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Post by lrobertson on Apr 22, 2018 19:52:04 GMT -5
All my Atmos blurays and uhds specify only Atmos rather than a format and I don’t own a pre pro capable for it yet but there is plenty reason to believe 7.1.4 is a misleading label as to the systems limits to properly use it as 24.1.10. They really would be blatantly lying with every technical description I’ve read of how the content is meant to be utilized. That is the only reason why I am so sceptical.
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Post by Gary Cook on Apr 22, 2018 19:59:29 GMT -5
Freeing Sound from Channels—the Dolby Atmos Concept Traditional surround soundtracks must confine all sounds to the 5.1 or 7.1 channels of a typical home theater setup. If a scene requires, say, a helicopter taking off, that sound has to be assigned to specific channels and mixed together with other sounds. While that helicopter can move across channels, it can't go above you. You hear it only from the small number of predetermined locations defined by the speaker setup, not as you'd hear it in real life. Dolby Atmos, by contrast, frees sound from channels. It's the first cinematic audio format in which sounds exist as individual entities, called audio objects. In Dolby Atmos, any sound—the helicopter, a car screeching around a corner, a melodic bird call—can exist as an independent audio object, free of channel restrictions. They can be precisely placed and moved anywhere in your room, including overhead, to flow above and around you in three-dimensional space. All of that is true, I have no doubt, I've heard it, experienced it. But what my question are about is not what they say but what they don't say. I haven't found anything that explains how/what changes when there are, say, 6 overhead (ceiling) speakers versus, say, 2. Or to my local cinema that has 10 overhead speakers. If the track is 7.1.4 and I have 6, what happens? In the theatre, sitting at the back, I can't really hear the front pair of the 10. Equally someone sitting at the front can't hear the rear pair of the 10. This is handled in the set up of the commercial theatre, they do lots of testing with Dolby supplied sound tracks, take sound measurements all around the theatre. It represent a goodly % of the total cost of converting a commercial theatre to Atmos. In our HT we don't get to do that. We just have to have the speakers located in the "Dolby approved" positions. Then tell the processor how many and which speaker locations we have and then it processes the Atmos track to fit. If I have a standard layout 7.1.4 set up and the Atmos disc is 7.1.4 then all is well, simple. But what happens if I have a 5.1.2 or a 9.1.6? Questions ................ Cheers Gary |
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Post by lrobertson on Apr 22, 2018 20:39:09 GMT -5
What they are implying though is the object coding that is given to the independent individual sounds aren’t channel based. It definitely sounds like you’re right about there being channels which I would bet are associated with the beds which isn’t surprising. That’s the ambiance and diffuse material in the background. The material you would of thrown a dipole at in the past because you didn’t want that as a localized sound. As far as objects they are always capable of accurate 24.1.10 playback as long as you follow speaker guidleines and have the processor. But like you said what happens to the other material that adds to the ambiance and sound fill just isn’t as important or sensitive to the effect so I’m sure they just used an algorithm to expand as our channels did. If I hear a 7.1.4 coming out of a 24.1.10 I’m just going to assume a much more diffuse background sound stage and more accurate panning of objects as well as better defined objects since less speakers as a total ratio will be tasked with each object. 2-4 speakers playing 3 objects won’t sound as good as if your speaker layouts allow for 1-2 object at a time.
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Post by Bonzo on Apr 22, 2018 20:57:30 GMT -5
Speaking of Thor Ragnarok, for Bonzo , the Atmos remix of Led Zepplin’s “Immigrant Song” is fantastic, just turn it up. Will do when we get to it. Thanks for the heads up man. Probably be a bit in the midst of moving my 85 year old Mom with big time memory issues, but looking forward to it just the same. Hopefully sooner rather than later, but we'll see. Life is funny sometimes. Sucks having $5000 worth of stereo stuff sitting around doing nothing. But it is what it is. Mom takes priority. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Apr 22, 2018 21:07:37 GMT -5
Speaking of Thor Ragnarok, for Bonzo , the Atmos remix of Led Zepplin’s “Immigrant Song” is fantastic, just turn it up. Will do when we get to it. Thanks for the heads up man. Probably be a bit in the midst of moving my 85 year old Mom with big time memory issues, but looking forward to it just the same. Hopefully sooner rather than later, but we'll see. Life is funny sometimes. Sucks having $5000 worth of stereo stuff sitting around doing nothing. But it is what it is. Mom takes priority. Best wishes mate, went through the same with my mum, she's 97, don't think I'll make it that far. Cheers Gary |
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Post by novisnick on Apr 22, 2018 21:18:29 GMT -5
Will do when we get to it. Thanks for the heads up man. Probably be a bit in the midst of moving my 85 year old Mom with big time memory issues, but looking forward to it just the same. Hopefully sooner rather than later, but we'll see. Life is funny sometimes. Sucks having $5000 worth of stereo stuff sitting around doing nothing. But it is what it is. Mom takes priority. Best wishes mate, went through the same with my mum, she's 97, don't think I'll make it that far. Cheers Gary Prayers and strength for you my friend! Last year was so hard for us, I understand all too well. ❤️ |
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Post by rkeeney on Apr 22, 2018 21:19:52 GMT -5
Granted though the theaters and we will receive the same general Atmos info so an intended 7 channel system I doubt is the case. For theaters running on a lot more than 7.1.4 I’m willing to bet the bedded channels don’t have the localized (object) information that matters. So essentially it’s dolby trueHd with the diffuse non localized sound stages meaning it probably doesn’t matter much what’s done with that information to expand it. It’s the object codec that is special about Atmos from what I’m gathering or else Dolby is really misrepresenting their tech. From the Thor Ragnarok 4K Atmos BD disc specs; I just can't rationalise how the Thor Ragnarok Digital Cinema Package at around 1 terabyte isn't going to have "more Atmos" than my 4K Atmos BD disc that is a dual layer and has 66 GB maximum. Speaking of Thor Ragnarok, for Bonzo , the Atmos remix of Led Zepplin’s “Immigrant Song” is fantastic, just turn it up. Cheers Gary Gary: I happen to run a projection booth at my local theater. I looked up some information for Thor Ragnarok. The DCP file size for the 2D Movie was 165GB an the 3D Movie was 171GB. The movie may have been sent on a 1 Terabyte hard drive, but it was no where close to being 1 Terabyte for the movie. Most of the DCP file size is the picture, not the audio. Hope this helps, Thanks, Robert |
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Post by Gary Cook on Apr 22, 2018 21:24:55 GMT -5
What they are implying though is the object coding that is given to the independent individual sounds aren’t channel based. It definitely sounds like you’re right about there being channels which I would bet are associated with the beds which isn’t surprising. That’s the ambiance and diffuse material in the background. The material you would of thrown a dipole at in the past because you didn’t want that as a localized sound. As far as objects they are always capable of accurate 24.1.10 playback as long as you follow speaker guidleines and have the processor. But like you said what happens to the other material that adds to the ambiance and sound fill just isn’t as important or sensitive to the effect so I’m sure they just used an algorithm to expand as our channels did. If I hear a 7.1.4 coming out of a 24.1.10 I’m just going to assume a much more diffuse background sound stage and more accurate panning of objects as well as better defined objects since less speakers as a total ratio will be tasked with each object. 2-4 speakers playing 3 objects won’t sound as good as if your speaker layouts allow for 1-2 object at a time. I agree with all but one thing, I just don't see how the huge amount of data for the objects to align with a 24.1.10 layout would fit on a blu ray disc, if it does than why would the movie theatre need a DCP of 1tb? The number of gigabits is one pierce of evidence, the other is the discs themselves that quote Atmos as 7.1.4 on the jacket. If what's on the disk is capable of 24.1.10 then why say 7.1.4? I have seen one only disk that was 9.1.6, that's the highest, I've never seen a disk with 24.1.10 and I look at all of the new ones every time I'm in the stores. Cheers Gary |
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Post by Gary Cook on Apr 22, 2018 21:29:50 GMT -5
Gary: I happen to run a projection booth at my local theater. I looked up some information for Thor Ragnarok. The DCP file size for the 2D Movie was 165GB an the 3D Movie was 171GB. The movie may have been sent on a 1 Terabyte hard drive, but it was no where close to being 1 Terabyte for the movie. Most of the DCP file size is the picture, not the audio. Hope this helps, Thanks, Robert Super thanks Robert, was that an Atmos sound track? Do you have some way of telling/knowing exactly what size the audio Atmos track is? It's around 3 times what will fit on a BD disc, so still interesting. Cheers Gary |
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Post by novisnick on Apr 22, 2018 21:32:00 GMT -5
From the Thor Ragnarok 4K Atmos BD disc specs; I just can't rationalise how the Thor Ragnarok Digital Cinema Package at around 1 terabyte isn't going to have "more Atmos" than my 4K Atmos BD disc that is a dual layer and has 66 GB maximum. Speaking of Thor Ragnarok, for Bonzo , the Atmos remix of Led Zepplin’s “Immigrant Song” is fantastic, just turn it up. Cheers Gary Gary: I happen to run a projection booth at my local theater. I looked up some information for Thor Ragnarok. The DCP file size for the 2D Movie was 165GB an the 3D Movie was 171GB. The movie may have been sent on a 1 Terabyte hard drive, but it was no where close to being 1 Terabyte for the movie. Most of the DCP file size is the picture, not the audio. Hope this helps, Thanks, Robert I just inspected my copy ot Thor 3D and it had no information about file size. |
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Post by Bonzo on Apr 22, 2018 21:36:26 GMT -5
Will do when we get to it. Thanks for the heads up man. Probably be a bit in the midst of moving my 85 year old Mom with big time memory issues, but looking forward to it just the same. Hopefully sooner rather than later, but we'll see. Life is funny sometimes. Sucks having $5000 worth of stereo stuff sitting around doing nothing. But it is what it is. Mom takes priority. Best wishes mate, went through the same with my mum, she's 97, don't think I'll make it that far. Cheers Gary Thanks man. Wow, 97, that's awesome. Give her a good hug next time you see her. It's schitt like that you remember, and that matters. I know for sure I won't make it that far. Dad went at 54. I'm 48. Just trying to beat the 54. |
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Post by rkeeney on Apr 22, 2018 21:38:38 GMT -5
Super thanks Robert, was that an Atmos sound track? Do you have some way of telling/knowing exactly what size the audio Atmos track is? It's around 3 times what will fit on a BD disc, so still interesting. Cheers Gary Gary: What was listed on the sheet that was included with the hard drive listed the audio as: 5.1 / 7.1 / ATMOS. There was nothing listed as to how big each sound format was. Again, based on my experience running my projection booth, as well as creating DCP's for my pre-show for my theater, the largest part of the DCP is the Image. The file size is alot smaller than that of the image. I will take a look at the hard drive this week when it comes in for Avengers: Infinity War and look at the file sizes once I ingest the hard drive into my cinema server and report back. Thanks, Robert |
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Post by Bonzo on Apr 22, 2018 21:39:31 GMT -5
Prayers and strength for you my friend! Last year was so hard for us, I understand all too well. ❤️ Thank you. It's life. But it's certainly not easy. |
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Post by novisnick on Apr 22, 2018 21:43:18 GMT -5
Prayers and strength for you my friend! Last year was so hard for us, I understand all too well. ❤️ Thank you. It's life. But it's certainly not easy. I know too well! My father passed this December. I was named after him and we were good! We worked together at the restaurant for over 25 years together. Sat every morning drinking coffee and doing the crossword together. I haven’t done another yet! Don’t know if ill ever do another. Peace be with you brother! |
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Post by Bonzo on Apr 22, 2018 21:55:13 GMT -5
Thank you. It's life. But it's certainly not easy. I know too well! My father passed this December. I was named after him and we were good! We worked together at the restaurant for over 25 years together. Sat every morning drinking coffee and doing the crossword together. I haven’t done another yet! Don’t know if ill ever do another. Peace be with you brother! Do one, in his honor, on purpose. It will matter. |
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Post by lrobertson on Apr 22, 2018 23:38:25 GMT -5
A disk labeled 7.1.4 doesn’t mean the objects are pre extracted and decoded on the disk. The decoding doesn’t occur till it hits the processor for objects. That’s never been debated by anything official I’ve read. So what I’d like to know is whether the Atmos theater with 36+ speakers was also running in 7.1.4. Which would only mean that the lesser important content that is not objects is duplicated among a greater array of speakers. Meaning the traffic and faint talking for the left rear can actually go to like 5+ speakers because it only adds to the intended effect and isn’t necessary to have a mix for every single speaker when dealing with up to 64 for the ambient content. That would be a huge unecessary waist of time to treat all speakers like they should have their own content, that’s what the object code is for. Instead they could zone out the material in let’s say 7.1.4 so there is still direction associated with some things going on even if they are in arrays. And if I remember right there are some limitations going from theater to Blu-ray but it doesn’t effect the functionality of objects unless wishing to go past 24.1.10. Now whether or not Thor was at a Atmos theater in greater than 7.1.4 might tell us whether they have to limit the bed channels to fit onto a disk. I’m just saying I think the more speakers you have will always result in a more diffuse sound field for the bedded channels and a more articulate sound field for the object code no matter the bed channel layout. Make the best of what we’re given and that should always be more speakers in the case of Atmos.
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Post by lrobertson on Apr 22, 2018 23:39:05 GMT -5
I’m sorry to hear about your guy’s losses and hard times
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