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Post by Gary Cook on May 10, 2018 19:43:27 GMT -5
I’ve heard from Keith the HDR demands are pretty light. My old 5 metre long 10 Gbps HDMI cable won't pass a HDR10 picture so I had to upgrade to an 18 Gbps HDMI cable. Maybe I'm being too simplistic but if I watch, say, a 2 hour movie at up to 10 Gbps it must consume less space on the disc than a 2 hour movie at up to 18 Gbps. Unless there is something like different compression etc at work, surely the need to support a higher speed data transfer rate indicates that there is more data to transfer? Of course maybe my "old" movies needed 9 Gbps (so 10 Gbps was OK) and my new movies need 11 Gbps (so 10 Gbps isn't OK), but that's still 22% more data. Then what happens when they start to use 18 Gbps, that's 100% more data? Cheers Gary |
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Post by lrobertson on May 10, 2018 19:56:17 GMT -5
I thought all hdr was passed through 4k right now so weren’t you supposed to upgrade that anyways?
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Post by mgbpuff on May 10, 2018 19:59:17 GMT -5
There is enough space on a BD or UHD BD disc for all the Dolby Home information. Why do you think they came up with a "Dolby Home" abbreviated from Dolby Cinema in the first place? Previous Dolby Atmos discs may have already included all that 24.1.10 information which was just simply reported as "Dolby Atmos". If it were not on most discs, would Trinnov even have a reason to exist? The question is if Media disc producers are going to dumb down what they put on BD and UHD BD discs for the purpose of using the same files for streaming which is sensitive to bandwidth. And if this becomes the dominant practice, why spring for 16 + channel systems? Are you sure that "there is enough space"? All of my 4K Atmos movies have just the movie on the disc with the extras on a separate disc. If they don't have room for extras, some of which are very scant, then it seems logical that there is a space restriction and they are going past it. So saving space by limiting Atmos x, y, z data would be a step in that direction. Maybe (yes, speculating again) there was enough room on the disc for 1080 video (inc. 3D) and Atmos with all of the x, y, z data. But 4K video and Atmos with all of the x, y, z data doesn't fit so they have to reduce the data. Can't reduce the 4K data or more appropriately don't want to because we (a lot of people with 4K TV's) could see it. But there aren't that many people with Atmos, let alone those past 7.1.4, so not many would be affected (or notice anyway). How does HDR10 and Dolby vision affect the amount of data? Do they ever further limit the amount of space on the disc left for audio? In regards to Trinnov's existence, some people just have to have more and are willing to pay lots more for just being able to say that they have more. Whether it works or not is irrelevant to them. Cheers Gary There is a new compression scheme used on UHD 4K discs called HEVC or H.265 which is reported to be twice as efficient as the old AVS or H.264. UHD players use a sharper laser also that can put 33GB on a single layer vs Bluray's 25GB. On top of that, UHD movies typically use two layers on a disc allowing 66GB. A blueray 2k movie typically fits on just one layer or 25GB. Even more than that, UHD discs can have 3 layers giving 100GB, twice as much as a two layer bluray. So I don't think going forward, that disc storage is a problem. Streaming now is another matter altogether. |
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Post by Gary Cook on May 10, 2018 22:34:51 GMT -5
There is a new compression scheme used on UHD 4K discs called HEVC or H.265 which is reported to be twice as efficient as the old AVS or H.264. UHD players use a sharper laser also that can put 33GB on a single layer vs Bluray's 25GB. On top of that, UHD movies typically use two layers on a disc allowing 66GB. A blueray 2k movie typically fits on just one layer or 25GB. Even more than that, UHD discs can have 3 layers giving 100GB, twice as much as a two layer bluray. So I don't think going forward, that disc storage is a problem. Streaming now is another matter altogether. The Last Jedi 4K BD is H265 which plays on my Sony X800 perfectly (BTW, it looks and sounds fantastic), so that's already here. But the extras are still on an additional disc, so even with H265 they don't fit. Cheers Gary |
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Post by liv2teach on May 11, 2018 2:05:29 GMT -5
Explain #3. The Marantz 8805 can do 7.1.6 The Marantz can do 7.1.6 or 9.1.4, but not 9.1.6. |
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Post by Gary Cook on May 11, 2018 2:44:01 GMT -5
I thought all hdr was passed through 4k right now so weren’t you supposed to upgrade that anyways? A 4K picture without HDR10 is OK through the 10 Gbps cable, but a 4K picture with HDR10 goes all sparkly. Everything the same, just swap to an 18 Gbps cable and a 4K picture with HDR10 looks great. Swap back to the 10 Gbps cable and the sparkly bits return. Cheers Gary |
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Post by mgbpuff on May 11, 2018 4:10:06 GMT -5
There is a new compression scheme used on UHD 4K discs called HEVC or H.265 which is reported to be twice as efficient as the old AVS or H.264. UHD players use a sharper laser also that can put 33GB on a single layer vs Bluray's 25GB. On top of that, UHD movies typically use two layers on a disc allowing 66GB. A blueray 2k movie typically fits on just one layer or 25GB. Even more than that, UHD discs can have 3 layers giving 100GB, twice as much as a two layer bluray. So I don't think going forward, that disc storage is a problem. Streaming now is another matter altogether. The Last Jedi 4K BD is H265 which plays on my Sony X800 perfectly (BTW, it looks and sounds fantastic), so that's already here. But the extras are still on an additional disc, so even with H265 they don't fit. Cheers Gary I think the separate extra disc is because most UHD packages include a Bluray disc also and the extras disc, which is 1080 can serve in both UHD and Bluray only players. |
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Post by mgbpuff on May 11, 2018 4:27:26 GMT -5
Explain #3. The Marantz 8805 can do 7.1.6 The Marantz can do 7.1.6 or 9.1.4, but not 9.1.6. Yes, but you can have two configurations, either a 9.1.2 or a 7.1.4 for DTS-X which can only handle 11 channels anyway, and a 7.1.6 for Atmos. We have been told that the RMC-1 will do 9.1.6 in Atmos. I hope that is true, but separate configurations for both DTS-X and Dolby Atmos will still be required (I think). |
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Post by cwt on May 11, 2018 7:21:46 GMT -5
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Post by lrobertson on May 11, 2018 8:01:17 GMT -5
As soon as you verify this across the board on all pre pros including trinnov I’ll concede. But there wouldn’t just be the mh and fw lost on the trinnov. There would be about 16 other speakers lost as well. Until then it sounds like the pre pro manufacturers haven’t set up their processing to include arrays when expanding and if objects are completely absent that I admit would be concerning. Because Denon does it one way doesn’t mean objects were yanked. We could easily be seeing the negative results of poor implementation that will be limited with what is the new standard as being claimed. It could be faux Atmos. But indeed if this were true it would affect what I’d want to purchase so by all means figure it out but we can’t draw conclusions from new tech. The example of my first 1080p that didn’t accept the true native 24 frame signal is an example of this type of screw up. As soon as the tv manufacturers started seeing the source demand for the native signal their future products were built to support it. Anecdotal conclusions drawn from forum conversations of people not in the development team of Atmos really isn’t something to lay any concretes on including for myself. I’m the only one trying to maintain the objects are not gone using official sources and not forum member talk. Let’s hear from an official source. I’m still waiting. What’s crippled could easily be old pre pros not properly programmed over any new standard. That would also be better for all of us unless you bought in too soon. I’m not throwing down money until this is sorted out though. Try calling a Trinnov dealer or their tech department and and ask him why you should invest 30k for 32 channels when 20 speakers will lay dormant doing nothing the vast majority of time with these limits that are being thrown around and I’d want to hear his response. Or pretend to be an existing customer and complain why you only hear 11 out of your 31 speakers playing information with certain content. I have a feeling he would be confused at what you’re suggesting. |
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Post by madmatt on May 11, 2018 11:36:52 GMT -5
As soon as you verify this across the board on all pre pros including trinnov I’ll concede. But there wouldn’t just be the mh and fw lost on the trinnov. There would be about 16 other speakers lost as well. Until then it sounds like the pre pro manufacturers haven’t set up their processing to include arrays when expanding and if objects are completely absent that I admit would be concerning. Because Denon does it one way doesn’t mean objects were yanked. We could easily be seeing the negative results of poor implementation that will be limited with what is the new standard as being claimed. It could be faux Atmos. But indeed if this were true it would affect what I’d want to purchase so by all means figure it out but we can’t draw conclusions from new tech. The example of my first 1080p that didn’t accept the true native 24 frame signal is an example of this type of screw up. As soon as the tv manufacturers started seeing the source demand for the native signal their future products were built to support it. Anecdotal conclusions drawn from forum conversations of people not in the development team of Atmos really isn’t something to lay any concretes on including for myself. I’m the only one trying to maintain the objects are not gone using official sources and not forum member talk. Let’s hear from an official source. I’m still waiting. What’s crippled could easily be old pre pros not properly programmed over any new standard. That would also be better for all of us unless you bought in too soon. I’m not throwing down money until this is sorted out though. Try calling a Trinnov dealer or their tech department and and ask him why you should invest 30k for 32 channels when 20 speakers will lay dormant doing nothing the vast majority of time with these limits that are being thrown around and I’d want to hear his response. Or pretend to be an existing customer and complain why you only hear 11 out of your 31 speakers playing information with certain content. I have a feeling he would be confused at what you’re suggesting. This is a quote from page 145 of AVS Forum on Trinnov. "Apr 25, 2018 · #4338 sdrucker said: Original Post Ouch, they may be telling the truth about the "7.1.4" Dolby Atmos on the label, then. Thanks for checking! Very disappointing, I watched this movie last night. The meters were fixed at 7.1.4 there was absolutely nothing in any of the other channels. What makes it worst is that you have to switch from bitstream to PCM if you want to upmix to all of your speakers. A Major step backwards if this continues to spread to other disks." |
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Post by lrobertson on May 11, 2018 11:44:50 GMT -5
F me. At least I may end up with more money in my pockets. I hope Emotiva or Keith gives it to us straight soon if this is for a lot of the source material in the future and there will be no work around. Upconverting in pcm would prob treat all extra speakers and objects as more arrays and that would probably totally lose that object sound’s purpose. To be clear though Atmos at home would no longer be object audio per say. You could call it 3d but it went back on it’s many claims of being expandable so I’d be surprised because they should step in and tell these audio mixers they can’t label it Atmos. It sounds like it would be easy to act as a trinnov owner or potential buyer and ask tech support what the hell is up and see if they are either working on a fix or if they give you the straight answer that with the material it is what it is.
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Post by cwt on May 11, 2018 13:27:40 GMT -5
As soon as you verify this across the board on all pre pros including trinnov I’ll concede. But there wouldn’t just be the mh and fw lost on the trinnov. Yes ;wires were crossed ::)was more pointing towards those atmos tracks that are potentially 9.1.6 as many new pre pro's like storm get the new discrete speaker upgrade eventually. The bottleneck is the new one size fits all audio mix [ streaming and now popping up on uhd bd's ] If the mix's I/O does not contain the extra channels nothing will come out as has been seen with the trinnovs on certain discs . Read what Filmmixer says here in reply to the erudite batpig and consider what is the cheaper way for the studios ; 1 dumbed down mix for network bandwidth reasons or an additional second full atmos mix as promised and so far delivered . www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/2952552-official-denon-avr-x8500h-13-2ch-flagship-avr-thread-43.html#post56090688As we were promised when atmos was introduced its rendering engine in our pre pro's does what Manni says here ; but when its FW or MH doesn't exist we get 11ch total www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/2952552-official-denon-avr-x8500h-13-2ch-flagship-avr-thread-43.html#post56091384I could describe Disneys track record with UHD discs but Ime not a glutton for punishment  Hopefully other studios care more .. |
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Post by lrobertson on May 11, 2018 13:56:54 GMT -5
Sdrucker was saying with his meter he was getting occasional playback through the height mids for 7.1.4 essentially showing 7.1.6 playback. Is this evidence it might be pre pro dependent on how it chooses to expand 9.1.6 vs 7.1.4? Because really the bed channels should still be able to run through all speakers as arrays and their should be a update to fix that considering those are the non discrete speaker arrays that can be placed around. It’s the objects that are crucial and it sounds like at least the objects went past 4 for the heights to run all his 6 so shouldn’t that tell us the info is there it just needs the proper extraction and processing? I still wonder now if there will be a workaround. I’m going to stop taking a side and hopefully by the time the XMC-2 or the RMC-1 are out I can choose which one makes more sense then. Reading into it and seeing that his middle heights did in fact support some objects left a little hope and I’m still hoping everyone is having the pointless debate over bed channels construing them with objects limiting the faux Atmos systems but I’ll admit I have doubts both ways now. But yeah if they are pinning objects as the height speakers they’d screw us but why did that play in the middle height unless it was just a messed up 7.1.4 implementation and that shouldn’t be happening with the rest.
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Post by hifiaudio2 on May 11, 2018 14:37:26 GMT -5
What is the latest post with the expected features, etc of the RMC-1 as we know it at this point in time?
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Post by cooldude on May 11, 2018 14:53:16 GMT -5
Any word on when we should expect rmc1?
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Post by lrobertson on May 11, 2018 14:59:33 GMT -5
Any word on when we should expect rmc1? You’ll never get a straight answer on that due to many things I’m sure. It sounds like they anticipate end of summer and things come up here and there. |
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Post by davidl81 on May 11, 2018 15:04:23 GMT -5
Any word on when we should expect rmc1? You’ll never get a straight answer on that due to many things I’m sure. It sounds like they anticipate end of summer and things come up here and there. Yeah end of summer is about the soonest I would expect it. But there has been no official on sale date from Emotiva except for the March 2018 date that was on a press release that they did not meet. |
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Post by lrobertson on May 11, 2018 17:13:34 GMT -5
Read more on it. They very well may have a “print to 7.1.4” option now which creates a 7.1 with 4 object speakers that stay in their static placement supposedly. I apologize for butting heads on this one. So I may have defended what they sold me on while they may have went and created a fast and easy way to have mixers undermine their sales pitch.. I think I hate Dolby. Their pay to play model doesn’t feel very fair when they don’t have certification standards. So what I really want to know now is will their be an Atmos and an Atmos 7.1.4 option when you buy or rent a uhd in the future? If I were Trinnov, datasat or Emotiva I’d be pretty pissed as they are putting a lot of r&d into systems with greater than 7.1.4. I really want to know if they can create a workaround if this “print to 7.1.4” is true and becomes common or if they could just place the pressure to restrict it to streaming and keep Atmos uhd Atmos. What manufacturer hasn’t began offering over 7.1.4 channels? You’d think they’d have some pushback. Mind you I only read this on that trinnov thread on avsforum so it’s hearsay at this point with two movies showing negative signs on their system.
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Post by thrillcat on May 11, 2018 18:18:53 GMT -5
If I were Trinnov, datasat or Emotiva I’d be pretty pissed as they are putting a lot of r&d into systems with greater than 7.1.4. My guess is they're politely raising hell, but you aren't going to hear any statement from them until it escalates. I would put blame about 70% on the studios, and 30% on Dolby. I'm sure, as has been speculated, this was Dolby appeasing the studios and streaming providers with a tool to make streaming simpler, and the studios have now decided to take advantage of it, or cheap out, or whatever their long-term plan is. With their history, my guess is it's a "charge more and sell another disc down the road" strategy. Again, all speculation. But if it's true, Dolby should've put more stringent terms of use on that encoder. I mean, they regulate how close you can put other art or text to their logo on packaging, you'd think they'd limit encoder use to the intended use. |
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Even the trinnov altitude 32 loses its MH and FW speakers when playing say Guardians of the galaxy2 ..
Take note of the atmos/wides thread @ avs forum for those not ''crippled" 
Hopefully other studios care more ..
