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Post by lrobertson on May 14, 2018 13:47:12 GMT -5
Hopefully after it finally ships out this thread is active for another 20+ years considering I’m buying into this thing for its expandability and future proof modularity. Beggars can’t be choosers
I wrote my concerns and dissatisfaction to Dolby today saying that I hope they commit themselves to giving us the real Atmos that we were sold on at least on the UHD and hard media. My entire room’s design is already planned for it. Doesn’t hurt and if they were to choose to modify their policy to have the real thing the sooner you get on em the better.
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Post by mgbpuff on May 14, 2018 14:09:16 GMT -5
Last week a DVD not bluray Netflix copy of 2049 showed up here. The “standard” Dolby mix left me wanting for nothing with startling rear channel effects. Who could take time to compare all these mixes to see which ones are better or not, I don’t know. I only know, my rears are above ear level with ultra wide dispersion tweeters (4 feet plus up) and distant enough from the sweet spot that I get awesome overhead effects without object based processing. Perhaps someday I will consider it if it becomes more than a niche market. Bill We rented the regular Bluray from Red Box. It has Atmos and DTS-Master 5.1. on my non-Atmos system, the DTS version sounded MUCH better. So when they say Atmos is fully backwards compatible, I'm not totally sold on that. But I have always prefered DTS-Master to Dolby True, so that may be part of it also. We fought the battle of Dolby vs DTS basic codecs half a decade ago and each have their pluses and minuses. . We are talking about immersive codecs now. Your system in incapable of playing Atmos, therefore you can't compare Atmos to anything (unless you listen to someone elses system)! |
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Post by mgbpuff on May 14, 2018 14:12:26 GMT -5
Hopefully after it finally ships out this thread is active for another 20+ years considering I’m buying into this thing for its expandability and future proof modularity. Beggars can’t be choosers I wrote my concerns and dissatisfaction to Dolby today saying that I hope they commit themselves to giving us the real Atmos that we were sold on at least on the UHD and hard media. My entire room’s design is already planned for it. Doesn’t hurt and if they were to choose to modify their policy to have the real thing the sooner you get on em the better. Kudos for writing to Dolby. I need to do the same! |
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Post by davidl81 on May 14, 2018 14:14:33 GMT -5
Hopefully after it finally ships out this thread is active for another 20+ years considering I’m buying into this thing for its expandability and future proof modularity. Beggars can’t be choosers I wrote my concerns and dissatisfaction to Dolby today saying that I hope they commit themselves to giving us the real Atmos that we were sold on at least on the UHD and hard media. My entire room’s design is already planned for it. Doesn’t hurt and if they were to choose to modify their policy to have the real thing the sooner you get on em the better. This news on Atoms is disappointing. I have a 7.1.4 setup right now on my SR7009, but I was really looking at getting the RMC-1 and adding at least two more ceiling speakers. But I may just keep the 7.1.4 setup now, so I have to ask why would I get the RMC-1 instead of the XMC-1 Gen3? Do we have any idea on advantages of the RMC besides the extra channels? I think the RMC has fully balanced outputs where the XMC has only L/C/R fully balanced, but I have no idea if that would be something you would ever notice in reality. All of this assumes the XMC-1 G3 will be out fairly close to the RMC-1 which may be a reach. |
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Post by mgbpuff on May 14, 2018 14:24:36 GMT -5
Hopefully after it finally ships out this thread is active for another 20+ years considering I’m buying into this thing for its expandability and future proof modularity. Beggars can’t be choosers I wrote my concerns and dissatisfaction to Dolby today saying that I hope they commit themselves to giving us the real Atmos that we were sold on at least on the UHD and hard media. My entire room’s design is already planned for it. Doesn’t hurt and if they were to choose to modify their policy to have the real thing the sooner you get on em the better. Kudos for writing to Dolby. I need to do the same! And so I just did to Dolby Labs Support! |
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Post by Bonzo on May 14, 2018 14:34:14 GMT -5
Your system in incapable of playing Atmos, therefore you can't compare Atmos to anything (unless you listen to someone elses system)! Yes and no. Of course I won't get real Atmos, but, since its supposed to be completely backwards compatible, what I should have gotten was Dolby True 7.1. I'm not sure I did. Because the DTS version was very noticably better in almost everyway. Not even close. So was the Atmos base so strongly mixed for real Atmos that the Dolby True base within didn't sound good? Certainly possible. In the future, discs may come with Atmos and DTS-X. Both should be backwards compatible. It will be interesting to see which sounds better when listening on a non-Atmos non-DTS-X system, as well as with capable systems. In other words, which is actually better at being backwards compatible. |
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Post by mgbpuff on May 14, 2018 14:40:40 GMT -5
Your system in incapable of playing Atmos, therefore you can't compare Atmos to anything (unless you listen to someone elses system)! Yes and no. Of course I won't get real Atmos, but, since its supposed to be completely backwards compatible, what I should have gotten was Dolby True 7.1. I'm not sure I did. Because the DTS version was very noticably better in almost everyway. Not even close. So was the Atmos base so strongly mixed for real Atmos that the Dolby True base within didn't sound good? Certainly possible. In the future, discs may come with Atmos and DTS-X. Both should be backwards compatible. It will be interesting to see which sounds better when listening on a non-Atmos non-DTS-X system, as well as with capable systems. In other words, which is actually better at being backwards compatible. I think most people will be less concerned with 'backwards' compatibility than with forward improved compatibility as is done via an upmixer such as DSU or DTS Neural X. |
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Post by Bonzo on May 14, 2018 14:51:04 GMT -5
Yes and no. Of course I won't get real Atmos, but, since its supposed to be completely backwards compatible, what I should have gotten was Dolby True 7.1. I'm not sure I did. Because the DTS version was very noticably better in almost everyway. Not even close. So was the Atmos base so strongly mixed for real Atmos that the Dolby True base within didn't sound good? Certainly possible. In the future, discs may come with Atmos and DTS-X. Both should be backwards compatible. It will be interesting to see which sounds better when listening on a non-Atmos non-DTS-X system, as well as with capable systems. In other words, which is actually better at being backwards compatible. I think most people will be less concerned with 'backwards' compatibility than with forward improved compatibility as is done via an upmixer such as DSU or DTS Neural X. In the future, for sure. But it is relevant now. For people who still buy discs, it makes sense now to buy 4K discs with Atmos etc even if their systems can't handle 4K or Atmos. Saves having the buy the disc yet again in the future when they do upgrade. That's where me and I'll bet many other folks are right now. |
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Post by davidl81 on May 14, 2018 14:55:35 GMT -5
I think most people will be less concerned with 'backwards' compatibility than with forward improved compatibility as is done via an upmixer such as DSU or DTS Neural X. In the future, for sure. But it is relevant now. For people who still buy discs, it makes sense now to buy 4K discs with Atmos etc even if their systems can't handle 4K or Atmos. Saves having the buy the disc yet again in the future when they do upgrade. That's where me and I'll bet many other folks are right now. I'm buying 4k disc now even though my theater room only has a 1080p projector. One big reason is that most blu-rays are not putting the Atmos soundtrack on the disc, they are only putting Atmos on the UHD disc. |
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Post by Bonzo on May 14, 2018 15:21:42 GMT -5
In the future, for sure. But it is relevant now. For people who still buy discs, it makes sense now to buy 4K discs with Atmos etc even if their systems can't handle 4K or Atmos. Saves having the buy the disc yet again in the future when they do upgrade. That's where me and I'll bet many other folks are right now. I don't know, you're the expert on not having any of this stuff and still being able to judge on it. I would think that people with old stuff and no plans to upgrade would just buy BD. And people with old stuff and plans to upgrade would just for the mean time stream their movies while they're saving their money. But i have the new stuff, so I am no more qualified on judging what people with old stuff should be doing anymore than you are on judging what people with the new stuff should be hearing. Let's see, I never said anything about what people with the new stuff should be hearing. Where the heck does the word judging fit in here? I'm confused. ALL people will have 4K or 8K TVs eventually, when their old sets crap out, or they just NEED a new TV for one reason or another. Using the word upgrade does not fit those scenarios. Most people will not upgrade to the new tech just because. Enthusists might, or they might not, depending on their situation. Like me, with a Panny ZT. I won't be going to 4k any time soon unless I have to. Enthusists like us who haven't been able to make the jump yet who like to buy discs (yes, there are still many of us) are probably smart enough to realize all this and buy the better discs now. Same goes for regular folks if they really like movies and discs. By the way, I do HAVE all the stuff ready. 6 ceiling speakers, some new side surround speakers, a processor, and an amp. Just sitting around in my house doing NOTHING but collecting dust because I have had zero free time to do it in the last 9 months. Its very frustrating having $5000 worth of fun sitting around doing nothing. |
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Post by Bonzo on May 14, 2018 15:29:49 GMT -5
In the future, for sure. But it is relevant now. For people who still buy discs, it makes sense now to buy 4K discs with Atmos etc even if their systems can't handle 4K or Atmos. Saves having the buy the disc yet again in the future when they do upgrade. That's where me and I'll bet many other folks are right now. I'm buying 4k disc now even though my theater room only has a 1080p projector. One big reason is that most blu-rays are not putting the Atmos soundtrack on the disc, they are only putting Atmos on the UHD disc. Exactly what I'm talking about. Especially when many 4K discs come with a Bluray included in the pack. |
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Post by mgbpuff on May 14, 2018 15:40:16 GMT -5
I'm buying 4k disc now even though my theater room only has a 1080p projector. One big reason is that most blu-rays are not putting the Atmos soundtrack on the disc, they are only putting Atmos on the UHD disc. Exactly what I'm talking about. Especially when many 4K discs come with a Bluray included in the pack. Yeh, but Davidl81 has a UHD player and an Atmos receiver that he took the time to set up and use, so he is mostly up to date. |
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Post by Gary Cook on May 14, 2018 15:53:17 GMT -5
Your system in incapable of playing Atmos, therefore you can't compare Atmos to anything (unless you listen to someone elses system)! Yes and no. Of course I won't get real Atmos, but, since its supposed to be completely backwards compatible, what I should have gotten was Dolby True 7.1. I'm not sure I did. Because the DTS version was very noticably better in almost everyway. Not even close. So was the Atmos base so strongly mixed for real Atmos that the Dolby True base within didn't sound good? Certainly possible. In the future, discs may come with Atmos and DTS-X. Both should be backwards compatible. It will be interesting to see which sounds better when listening on a non-Atmos non-DTS-X system, as well as with capable systems. In other words, which is actually better at being backwards compatible. I personally prefer DTS-X, conceptually it's better, the sound engineers/mixers I have spoken to all prefer DTS-X, easier to mix with and it doesn't cost them anything. Just for the ability to adjust the dialogue alone DTS-X is a winner for me. Cheers Gary |
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richb
Sensei
Oppo Beta Group - Audioholics Reviewer
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Post by richb on May 14, 2018 16:24:42 GMT -5
Last week a DVD not bluray Netflix copy of 2049 showed up here. The “standard” Dolby mix left me wanting for nothing with startling rear channel effects. Who could take time to compare all these mixes to see which ones are better or not, I don’t know. I only know, my rears are above ear level with ultra wide dispersion tweeters (4 feet plus up) and distant enough from the sweet spot that I get awesome overhead effects without object based processing. Perhaps someday I will consider it if it becomes more than a niche market. Bill We rented the regular Bluray from Red Box. It has Atmos and DTS-Master 5.1. on my non-Atmos system, the DTS version sounded MUCH better. So when they say Atmos is fully backwards compatible, I'm not totally sold on that. But I have always prefered DTS-Master to Dolby True, so that may be part of it also. In theory, they should both be lossless but Dolby adds Dialog Normalization which is supposed to be fixed boost or attenuation. If that is the case, it is a terrible name. - Rich |
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Post by Bonzo on May 14, 2018 16:33:44 GMT -5
Yeh, but Davidl81 has a UHD player and an Atmos receiver A UHD player with 1080p projector means nothing for 4k, but he's buying 4k discs anyway. In his case, for the time being, its for the sound. But thats for the movies he wants. I can tell you there are plenty of regular Blurays with Atmos. It just makes perfect sense to buy 4k discs now if you can, REGARDLESS of what equipment you own. Unless its some stupid movie where quality isn't important that you can get super cheap on bluray, why would you not buy the better disc now? It just seems to me you are completely missing the point. . Why is it that your replies today seem to have some cheap stab issue to them? That's 2 now. "He took the time to set up and use," so he cares more than me? Talk about being judgmental. Pot calling the kettle black. If you think I enjoy having $5 grand sitting around doing nothing, you are sorely mistaken. You have no idea what my life has been like the last 9 months. So as we say at work, "go suck it." You must be in a bad mood today. I'll leave it alone then. |
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Post by Bonzo on May 14, 2018 16:40:54 GMT -5
We rented the regular Bluray from Red Box. It has Atmos and DTS-Master 5.1. on my non-Atmos system, the DTS version sounded MUCH better. So when they say Atmos is fully backwards compatible, I'm not totally sold on that. But I have always prefered DTS-Master to Dolby True, so that may be part of it also. In theory, they should both be lossless but Dolby adds Dialog Normalization which is supposed to be fixed boost or attenuation. If that is the case, it is a terrible name. - Rich Keith has also pointed out on many occasions, that just because it "could be," doesn't mean it is. It is possible for the Atmos version and the Dolby True downmix to sound completely different not only because of the lack of Atmos, but because the engineers intended it to be that way. I sort of relate it to 3D. Some 3D movies rock. Some suck. It depends on how it was done, and how over the top is is. I can certainly see some engineers taking Atmos to the extremes, having objects just doing whacko stuff. Imagine them having stuff going one way on a screen while the sound goes the other way. Not they would, but they could. So it's certainly possible that a DTS-Master 7.1 could sound better than a DTS-X, same goes for Atmos and Dolby True. Hopefully its completely unlikely, but it is possible. |
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richb
Sensei
Oppo Beta Group - Audioholics Reviewer
Posts: 889
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Post by richb on May 14, 2018 16:43:48 GMT -5
In theory, they should both be lossless but Dolby adds Dialog Normalization which is supposed to be fixed boost or attenuation. If that is the case, it is a terrible name. - Rich Keith has also pointed out on many occasions, that just because it "could be," doesn't mean it is. It is possible for the Atmos version and the Dolby True downmix to sound completely different not only because of the lack of Atmos, but because the engineers intended it to be that way. I sort of relate it to 3D. Some 3D movies rock. Some suck. It depends on how it was done, and how over the top is is. I can certainly see some engineers taking Atmos to the extremes, having objects just doing whacko stuff. Imagine them having stuff going one way on a screen while the sound goes the other way. Not they would, but they could. So it's certainly possible that a DTS-Master 7.1 could sound better than a DTS-X, same goes for Atmos and Dolby True. Hopefully its completely unlikely, but it is possible. Whenever it is a different mix, all bets are off. Star Trek Into Darkness has an Atmos mix which made much better user of the surrounds on my 5.1 system than the Dolby TrueHD mix o the BD. - Rich |
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Post by 405x5 on May 14, 2018 17:55:31 GMT -5
Last week a DVD not bluray Netflix copy of 2049 showed up here. The “standard” Dolby mix left me wanting for nothing with startling rear channel effects. Who could take time to compare all these mixes to see which ones are better or not, I don’t know. I only know, my rears are above ear level with ultra wide dispersion tweeters (4 feet plus up) and distant enough from the sweet spot that I get awesome overhead effects without object based processing. Perhaps someday I will consider it if it becomes more than a niche market. Bill We rented the regular Bluray from Red Box. It has Atmos and DTS-Master 5.1. on my non-Atmos system, the DTS version sounded MUCH better. So when they say Atmos is fully backwards compatible, I'm not totally sold on that. But I have always prefered DTS-Master to Dolby True, so that may be part of it also. [ Both formats you mentioned were what I was after with my last upgrade. I still rent DVD’s but when I buy it’s nearly always bluray and 3D when available. I probably have half dozen titles with ATMOS but they won’t get heard anytime soon. Bill |
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Post by cwt on May 15, 2018 6:03:13 GMT -5
This news on Atoms is disappointing. I have a 7.1.4 setup right now on my SR7009, but I was really looking at getting the RMC-1 and adding at least two more ceiling speakers. But I may just keep the 7.1.4 setup now, so I have to ask why would I get the RMC-1 instead of the XMC-1 Gen3? Do we have any idea on advantages of the RMC besides the extra channels? I think the RMC has fully balanced outputs where the XMC has only L/C/R fully balanced, but I have no idea if that would be something you would ever notice in reality. All of this assumes the XMC-1 G3 will be out fairly close to the RMC-1 which may be a reach. Leaving aside this Disney dolby kerfuffle David theres still many reasons to want the RMC1 over the XMC2 . 1. The extra griffin light dsp horsepower will facilitate an increase in dts-x speaker capability past the 7.1.4 channel XMC2 . 2. The same horsepower will determine what gets dirac unison and what is a bit iffy ? 3. Again the dsp processing will facilitate the mystery proprietary dsp mode Emo has mentioned previously ..cant have enough dsp modes 4. We know the general timeline for release if not anything specific so what comes 1st ? The RMC1 ;time to factor in Emo wait time  5. Being fully balanced gives the excuse to run a few monoblocks for isolation and maybe true common mode differential s/n ratio advantage input to output ; everyone appreciates the xmc1's low noise floor ; a better one is psychologically better  Only the best equipment uses the exxy double circuitry approach. 6.Auro 3d with its voice of god speaker and 3 levels of sound if optioned will be better served by the rmc1  It would be much appreciated by many to see Emo comment on any or all of these topics of course to firm options up .. |
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Post by lrobertson on May 15, 2018 7:34:02 GMT -5
I agree with all those. What I am surprised about is these people with the trinnov systems on avsforum haven’t really latched on to the issue of the 7.1.4. You would think there would be more talk if they were having a lot of quality issues with the up mixers. A couple days of talk the end of last month and they’ve moved on to discussing other things.. Maybe it’s an indicator or maybe it’s because they aren’t perspective buyers and are already owners they have less reason to speculate and just have to roll with it. I plan on taking a look every once in a while especially if I hear there’s a big release coming out in the limited format.
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Only the best equipment uses the exxy double circuitry approach. 6.Auro 3d with its voice of god speaker and 3 levels of sound if optioned will be better served by the rmc1 
It would be much appreciated by many to see Emo comment on any or all of these topics of course to firm options up ..