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Post by Gary Cook on May 15, 2018 16:04:14 GMT -5
I agree with all those. What I am surprised about is these people with the trinnov systems on avsforum haven’t really latched on to the issue of the 7.1.4. You would think there would be more talk if they were having a lot of quality issues with the up mixers. A couple days of talk the end of last month and they’ve moved on to discussing other things.. Maybe it’s an indicator or maybe it’s because they aren’t perspective buyers and are already owners they have less reason to speculate and just have to roll with it. I plan on taking a look every once in a while especially if I hear there’s a big release coming out in the limited format. Maybe they don't want to talk about it because it's embarrassing, that they have spent a truck load of money and get nothing for it Atmos wise. They are a prisoner of whatever the studios want them to be, which is 7.1.4. They can't escape the lack of source material so they move the conversation to other subjects where they can demonstrate their superiority. Cheers Gary |
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Post by lrobertson on May 15, 2018 18:39:22 GMT -5
That’s one large blanket statement for even the ones that opted for only the 16 over 32 or any other system for no other reason than sound quality. I’m sure a lot of those people with the trinnovs bought the system with less than a single month’s earnings so that too could be why they just don’t see it as big of a deal. Most of those people I doubt spend their time on avforum so I guess the ones that are on it might be the ones to get embarrassed if the results are less than desirable. I would prefer to hear how they like a up mix to 32 on one of those things regardless just to know. At least vs the real Atmos or even as compared to the 7.1.4. Might still be pretty awesome with just the mixer. I’m at least assuming they would prefer to up mix.
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Post by petew on May 15, 2018 20:24:34 GMT -5
...I’m sure a lot of those people with the trinnovs bought the system with less than a single month’s days earnings ... There, fixed it for you. |
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Post by Gary Cook on May 15, 2018 21:14:15 GMT -5
That’s one large blanket statement for even the ones that opted for only the 16 over 32 or any other system for no other reason than sound quality. I’m sure a lot of those people with the trinnovs bought the system with less than a single month’s earnings so that too could be why they just don’t see it as big of a deal. Most of those people I doubt spend their time on avforum so I guess the ones that are on it might be the ones to get embarrassed if the results are less than desirable. I would prefer to hear how they like a up mix to 32 on one of those things regardless just to know. At least vs the real Atmos or even as compared to the 7.1.4. Might still be pretty awesome with just the mixer. I’m at least assuming they would prefer to up mix. But "up mixing" (I prefer the "matrixing" terminology) is not Atmos. The objects as they were mixed are no longer accurate to their X, Y, Z co ordinates. The processor has decided, using its own algorithms, were the sound is going to come from. That's not what Atmos is all about, the sound mixer/engineer is the one who is supposed to decide what exact sounds come from exactly where. By the processor matrixing, that determination has been moved from the sound mixer/engineer for that movie to whoever wrote the algorithm for all movies. Personally I don't want my processor up mixing/matrixing, I want to hear exactly what this particular movie's sound mixer/engineer intended me to hear, anything less than that is simply not Atmos IMHO. Cheers Gary |
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Post by thrillcat on May 15, 2018 21:25:43 GMT -5
But "up mixing" (I prefer the "matrixing" terminology) is not Atmos. Exactly. Up mixing is glorified Dolby ProLogic. I personally really don't give a whoop about Atmos, I understand it works for some people. I haven't heard an implementation, home or commercial cinema, that has made me think 'ooooh, I should do that.' Add to that a small room, low ceiling, and high-mount-slant surrounds, and I can't imagine it making much of a difference in my room. Maybe someday, if I move and build a new theater I'll change my tune, but I'm not holding my breath. |
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Post by lrobertson on May 15, 2018 22:13:40 GMT -5
having the 7.1.4 a hybrid when it switches to pcm for up mixing is it possible something a little more proprietary and discrete can take place or is everyone pretty sure it’s old school matrixing? In pcm it sees no objects then and sees the height as an individual layer of speakers or does it not even read the heights as heights at that point? I would still think that format being new Dolby would update their surround mixer to have a better ability to handle it how you’d hope. Wishful thinking though.
I would definitely say the larger the room and higher the ceilings the more practical Atmos becomes.
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Post by Gary Cook on May 15, 2018 22:36:06 GMT -5
I personally really don't give a whoop about Atmos, I understand it works for some people. I haven't heard an implementation, home or commercial cinema, that has made me think 'ooooh, I should do that.' Add to that a small room, low ceiling, and high-mount-slant surrounds, and I can't imagine it making much of a difference in my room. Maybe someday, if I move and build a new theater I'll change my tune, but I'm not holding my breath. At the risk of repeating myself, I find Atmos 5.1.2 to be far superior to 7.1, yes, the same amount of channels. The room is quite small. I also find Atmos 5.1 to be superior to Dolby Trues HD 5.1, yes, no ceiling speakers. It's clearer, more distinct with more localisation of the sound effects. I find DTS-X to be the best so far, whether 5.1.2 or 5.1, especially with its ability to control the dialogue (not the centre speaker). The above could be because the Atmos (or DTS-X) movie track is simply mixed better or the the Atmos (or DTS-X) decoding is better. So far that's been the same result when using a cheapass Yamaha AVR and a top line Yamaha Processor. My guess is as more and more movies are mixed for Atmos the "lessor mixes" are going to suffer. So just because you don't want, don't like or can't fit ceiling speakers you shouldn't dismiss Atmos and you should definitely not dismiss DTS-X. Cheers Gary |
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Post by thrillcat on May 16, 2018 7:58:39 GMT -5
I personally really don't give a whoop about Atmos, I understand it works for some people. So just because you don't want, don't like or can't fit ceiling speakers you shouldn't dismiss Atmos and you should definitely not dismiss DTS-X. Cheers Gary That's why I said "I PERSONALLY don't give a whoop..." and "I understand it works for some people." But you go ahead and take offense like I just insulted your mother. My entire point was that matrixing extra channels, upmixing, is what Dolby ProLogic did. And using ProLogic-style technology when the capability is already there in the hardware and software is a terrible business practice. Even if I PERSONALLY don't care about Atmos, I still want them to implement it to the fullest of its capability. But you go ahead and take offense like I just insulted your mother. |
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klinemj
Emo VIPs 
Official Emofest Scribe
Posts: 15,068
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Post by klinemj on May 16, 2018 8:37:26 GMT -5
I do recall a long time ago in a land far away (before Emotiva decided to pursue Atmos) that there were many conversations about ATMOS and its benefits. Many here were not planning to be impressed and there was a certain person who visited the lounge only to add comments on ATMOS and pumping its benefits. He got quite a bit obnoxious about it, actually, and I think he got banned, IIRC. Anyway, in the course of those conversations, someone pointed out that there were already public comments from the industry that the "home versions of ATMOS may differ from the cinema versions" It's looking like that is coming true, at least for some source material.
That said - I did just watch Avengers Infinity Wars in an ATMOS theater and it was outstanding. (And the seats were great and I could push a button on the seat to summon a waiter who would bring me Stella Artois...in retrospect, that was a bad move...long movie + 2 beers = a couple visits to the urinal and no pause button!)
Mark
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Post by thrillcat on May 16, 2018 8:39:53 GMT -5
public comments from the industry that the "home versions of ATMOS may differ from the cinema versions" It's looking like that is coming true, at least for some source material. Mark Remember when the industry did a complete 180 and stopped referring to it as "object-based", and then we were inundated with the new term "Immersive Audio"? Yep. |
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Post by davidl81 on May 16, 2018 8:44:59 GMT -5
I just want the RMC-1 to become a reality at this point. Last night I reran the setup on my SR-7009 (I forgot to do it after I replaced my XPA-2 with my DR-2) and all I can say is that Audyssey is not very good for 2 Channel music. The Atmos surround sounds pretty good, but when listing to Tidal 2 channel it sounds like someone just cut the guts out of the music. With Aud turned on I get really clear, well defined highs but no mid bass. It makes my OMD-28s sound like they are neutered. I can bypass the Aud and then I get the bass back, but the overall sound is very muddy. I really want the RMC-1 to come out so I can still enjoy Atmos yet have a much better 2 channel experience. My hope is that the Atmos may sound better as well.
Also I do want to upgrade my projector to 4k, but my current SR7009 wont pass through a HDR signal, so another reason to get the RMC-1. I really don't mind waiting, but I just wish that we could get a fairly firm release date, even if that date is Nov 2018.
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Post by rbk123 on May 16, 2018 9:20:19 GMT -5
I really don't mind waiting, but I just wish that we could get a fairly firm release date, even if that date is Nov 2018. My understanding is they have a couple of unknowns that are in 1 or several external vendors' courts and so they wouldn't be able to give a 'firm' date, since they don't have control of those. I know if it were my project, I wouldn't give a firm date while having external unknowns (or external estimates). I might give a soft target date depending on my experience with the vendors, but in this case that will probably do more harm than good, and I would recommend they not risk that. But my recommendation is worth exactly what they paid for it. |
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richb
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Post by richb on May 16, 2018 9:29:46 GMT -5
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Post by davidl81 on May 16, 2018 9:32:09 GMT -5
I really don't mind waiting, but I just wish that we could get a fairly firm release date, even if that date is Nov 2018. My understanding is they have a couple of unknowns that are in 1 or several external vendors' courts and so they wouldn't be able to give a 'firm' date, since they don't have control of those. I know if it were my project, I wouldn't give a firm date while having external unknowns (or external estimates). I might give a soft target date depending on my experience with the vendors, but in this case that will probably do more harm than good, and I would recommend they not risk that. But my recommendation is worth exactly what they paid for it. That is true that Emotiva is not really in control of the release date because they need the chip makers to fulfill their end. I guess it begs the question of how soon is too soon to announce a new product? You can look at the case of Apple in that for the most part (with the exception of the iPhone X) that when they demo a new product they usually have it available for sale within a matter of weeks. Even the X was only about two months from the first demo of the phone to it actually going on sale. Emotiva first announced this Pre-Pro in January 2017 and now we are sixteen months later and the product is not able to be purchased yet. It's one thing to announce a product to keep people interested, but IMO announcing a product close to two years out in consumer electronics is a bit much. |
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Post by rbk123 on May 16, 2018 9:48:47 GMT -5
That is true that Emotiva is not really in control of the release date because they need the chip makers to fulfill their end. I guess it begs the question of how soon is too soon to announce a new product? You can look at the case of Apple in that for the most part (with the exception of the iPhone X) that when they demo a new product they usually have it available for sale within a matter of weeks. Even the X was only about two months from the first demo of the phone to it actually going on sale. Emotiva first announced this Pre-Pro in January 2017 and now we are sixteen months later and the product is not able to be purchased yet. It's one thing to announce a product to keep people interested, but IMO announcing a product close to two years out in consumer electronics is a bit much. I agree with you 100%. The RMC actually was announced/discussed in 2016; plus in September of 2017 it won, as a prototype, the "Best of Cedia" award from the avsforum editor. No doubt he's taken a tremendous beating for giving an award to vaporware, and rightly so. But Dan has announced many products that have never materialized (cough, cough, Emersa, cough cough) so he definitely doesn't follow the Apple mold. Different styles for sure. I always love to see here when he posts a new date, the post will get 20+ likes. That never stops making me laugh, but it is reflective of the pent-up eagerness so it's all good. |
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Post by adam631 on May 16, 2018 9:57:25 GMT -5
I asked in feb by email when the rmc would be available, and they replied back saying end of april. When i called the other day to ask again they said that person shouldn't of said that because they dont have an eta. I remember dan saying in the last podcast it will be shipping shortly, so what happened?
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Post by thrillcat on May 16, 2018 10:36:17 GMT -5
I guess it begs the question of how soon is too soon to announce a new product? ... Emotiva first announced this Pre-Pro in January 2017 and now we are sixteen months later and the product is not able to be purchased yet. It's one thing to announce a product to keep people interested, but IMO announcing a product close to two years out in consumer electronics is a bit much. I agree with you 100%. The RMC actually was announced/discussed in 2016; plus in September of 2017 it won, as a prototype, the "Best of Cedia" award from the avsforum editor. No doubt he's taken a tremendous beating for giving an award to vaporware, and rightly so. But Dan has announced many products that have never materialized (cough, cough, Emersa, cough cough) so he definitely doesn't follow the Apple mold. Different styles for sure. I always love to see here when he posts a new date, the post will get 20+ likes. That never stops making me laugh, but it is reflective of the pent-up eagerness so it's all good. It is really Emotiva's chosen marketing strategy. They don't have the ginormous marketing budget that Apple has (or Marantz, Denon, Yamaha, Sony, etc), and if they did, this upcoming product would have a 5-figure price tag because of it. They generate their brand awareness by talking about product in the pipeline, they get their market base to do their pre-launch marketing for them by talking about it, anticipating it, generating the buzz. In the process, their brand becomes known, and it becomes known for open communication with their base, listening to the customer and incorporating ideas into new projects. It also becomes known for missing self-imposed deadlines. I'm guessing the math has been done repeatedly, and this marketing strategy generates more sales than it alienates customers (hint, hint for the 100 or so of you on this forum that thinks Emotiva will live and die based on your purchase decision - they don't). If Emotiva's sales ever drop to the point they need those 100 extra sales, well, they have bigger problems. Until then, you'll see this marketing method used. I, for one, don't need to be on the bleeding edge. If I did, I wouldn't be an Emotiva customer. That's not their audience. Their share of the market is people who want something that is done right, it's done with high quality, and it's done at a fair price, and they're okay if it takes longer. Add to that the fact that it's done in the United States, and I fully believe Emotiva's market share is growing, not shrinking, contrary to the angry little men on here. EDIT: I am by no means including either of the 2 individuals quoted in this post "angry little men". I was actually agreeing with them, but stating what is (in my opinion) the reasoning behind Emotiva's early product announcements. |
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Post by rbk123 on May 16, 2018 11:42:50 GMT -5
I believe you to be spot on with the above. While there may be lost sales by annoyed consumers here and on other forums, I would imagine the vast majority of customers don't participate in forums and so really have no inkling of the ongoing promises/delay headaches. On top of that, things get quickly forgiven/forgotten once the products actually become available. Sales are, of course, the ultimate indicator, not posts on forums. If sales continue and/or are growing, then they're doing something right. Might not be perfect or as good as desired, but it is still correct.
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Post by mgbpuff on May 16, 2018 12:22:38 GMT -5
I don't know that I agree with the last two posts. According to the member list, there are about 21,500 members on the Lounge. That's a pretty significant number of people who are obviously interested in A/V equipment.
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Post by thrillcat on May 16, 2018 12:32:21 GMT -5
I don't know that I agree with the last two posts. According to the member list, there are about 21,500 members on the Lounge. That's a pretty significant number of people who are obviously interested in A/V equipment. When was the last time you deleted a forum account you weren't using? I'd guess there are about 1500 "active" members here. And the same 100 or so who come on here regularly to complain about missed deadlines. |
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