KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Oct 19, 2016 16:02:25 GMT -5
I agree absolutely. And don't forget that, with either of those choices, you STILL have a transformer in the speaker itself. (The electrostatic panel is a pure capacitor, and requires several THOUSAND volts of audio drive signal, so the speaker already includes a transformer.) That transformer both increases the cost of the speaker and limits its performance. It seems to make a lot more sense to simply include an amplifier in the speaker - one designed to work with the impedance presented by the electrostatic panels. In the early days of solid state amps, making an amp that would deliver several thousand volts of output was somewhat difficult, but it wouldn't that hard today. But in the case of electrostatic speakers, a self-contained active speaker makes good sense. Otherwise, you pretty much need: A transformer-coupled amplifier OR A "super-amp" capable of playing into 0.6 ohm at a HUGE capacitive phase angle But... Matters not what I think makes good sense - it is what it is. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 19, 2016 16:05:29 GMT -5
Yeah, but with a $10K pair of speakers, who needs to count transformers?
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Oct 19, 2016 16:18:06 GMT -5
I agree absolutely.... And I can only think of two reasons to do it the way they did: 1) Adding an amplifier would have increased the cost significantly (on an already expensive speaker). 2) A speaker in this price range is clearly an audiophile product. Many audiophiles have a favorite power amp, or want the option of choosing between different ones. By building the amp into the speaker, they are deprived of being able to use an amplifier they already own, or trying a different one. (It's essentially the same argument that limits the market for powered monitors.) Note that, unlike speakers, there are only a few popular brands of electrostatic headphones. Stax, currently the most popular seller of electrostatic headphones, offers several models of amplifiers (including both tube and solid state models), and there are several third party companies making electrostatic headphone amplifiers. (Pretty well ALL current electrostatic headphones require a specialized amplifier/energizer unit to run them.) Since ML already offers "hybrid" speakers with self-amplified bass, I'd think that they could (easily) add another built-in amp for the electrostatic panel & then the customer wouldn't need a power amp AT ALL. It would solve multiple problems - No speaker wires needed - No amplifier incompatibilities - Perfect frequency response - Single power cord for the whole speaker / amplifiers combo - Nah - makes FAR too much sense! |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Oct 19, 2016 16:25:28 GMT -5
You might be surprised. For one thing, EACH transformer adds distortion and phase shift, and they interact with the load and each other. Connecting one transformer to another makes the calculations a lot messier. For another thing, there's that pesky cost math.... EVERYTHING counts. A high quality transformer just might be the single most expensive part in that speaker. (And a low quality transformer would do a pretty good job of mucking up how it sounds...) Remember that, while power transformers are relatively common, transformers for electrostatic loudspeakers are a custom item.... Yeah, but with a $10K pair of speakers, who needs to count transformers? |
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Post by Bonzo on Oct 19, 2016 16:29:18 GMT -5
Then the speaker would be a self contained active. Here you dont have the choice of using an amp. It's made for you. You either like that approach or you don't. I like that approach when what I really care about is convenience. But less when I'm spending big bucks on a speaker. The same reason people shy away from DSP units in their speakers. Some just don't like the fact that their expensive DAC got re-digitized. I think what you say can certainly hold true for most speakers, but we are not talking about most speakers. So what if you can't "choose" your amp with a certain kind of speaker. In the case of Martin Logan electrostats I say a really big "who cares." I think in the case of Martin Logan it would only make their speakers have more appeal to the masses. People with $500 receivers could buy them. Think that's dumb? I don't. I've been there. I've got a $500 receiver and want to upgrade to these kick *bleep* Martin Logan's. But before I can buy the speakers, I need a crazy amp. So first I have to blow the $5000 it took me 3 years to save on an amp, which means I now have to wait 3 more years to actually afford the speakers I want. So great, now I've spent $5000 on an amp driving $500 speakers.  It's like the chicken or the egg. There are far more people who buy self powered subs than passive ones. I think the opposite trend with loudspeakers is more an old fashioned state of mind full of excuses more than anything else. Self powered speakers can have many advantages over passive designs. And let's not forget, all speakers require compromises. Gotta run, but I'll leave with this thought. What if Martin Logan designed their speakers with slide in/out amp modules? Then you could buy passive ML's or amplified ML's, and even change along the way. And ML could make different powered amps from low to high to suite different speakers, needs, or different budgets. Hmmmmmm......... |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Oct 19, 2016 16:41:07 GMT -5
I agree there as well. And I really don't know why they don't do exactly that (perhaps it's just that speakers are their "comfort zone"). Then the speaker would be a self contained active. Here you dont have the choice of using an amp. It's made for you. You either like that approach or you don't. I like that approach when what I really care about is convenience. But less when I'm spending big bucks on a speaker. The same reason people shy away from DSP units in their speakers. Some just don't like the fact that their expensive DAC got re-digitized. I think what you say can certainly hold true for most speakers, but we are not talking about most speakers. So what if you can't "choose" your amp with a certain kind of speaker. In the case of Martin Logan electrostats I say a really big "who cares." I think in the case of Martin Logan it would only make their speakers have more appeal to the masses. People with $500 receivers could buy them. Think that's dumb? I don't. I've been there. I've got a $500 receiver and want to upgrade to these kick *bleep* Martin Logan's. But before I can buy the speakers, I need a crazy amp. So first I have to blow the $5000 it took me 3 years to save on an amp, which means I now have to wait 3 more years to actually afford the speakers I want. So great, now I've spent $5000 on an amp driving $500 speakers. It's like the chicken or the egg. There are far more people who buy self powered subs than passive ones. I think the opposite trend with loudspeakers is more an old fashioned state of mind full of excuses more than anything else. Self powered speakers can have many advantages over passive designs. And let's not forget, all speakers require compromises. Gotta run, but I'll leave with this thought. What if Martin Logan designed their speakers with slide in/out amp modules? Then you could buy passive ML's or amplified ML's, and even change along the way. And ML could make different powered amps from low to high to suite different speakers, needs, or different budgets. Hmmmmmm......... |
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Post by Gary Cook on Oct 19, 2016 20:55:56 GMT -5
My 20 cents, ML are known for speakers and their prices are based on "what the market will bear" commerce. They have no reputation in power amplifiers, so the "what the market will bear" thinking won't cut it. In simple terms they can't justify their normal premium for the ML name on an amplifier. My guess is that they have no real internal expertise in amplifier technology, perhaps if they did they wouldn't engineer their speaker loadings to be so ridiculous (please excuse the sarcasm).
Cheers
Gary
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Post by PoloOle on Oct 19, 2016 22:30:19 GMT -5
I run my Ethos with a set of XPA-1 gen 1. Maybe I should consider replacing the XPA-1's....
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Post by mgbpuff on Oct 20, 2016 9:15:58 GMT -5
I will never buy ML speakers, unless I have need for a good bug zapper!  |
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But in the case of electrostatic speakers, a self-contained active speaker makes good sense. Otherwise, you pretty much need:
It's like the chicken or the egg. 
