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Post by Combobreaker on Nov 16, 2016 11:50:35 GMT -5
I was recently at a second hand store and picked up a Monster Reference PowerCenter HTS 2500 MKII for 10 bucks. It has a set of time delayed outlets that are meant for power amps. When it turns on, it sends power to the amps after six seconds. At turn off, it turns the amps off first. The unit also has a trigger. Using these, I set my XMC-1 to trigger the PowerCenter to send power to the amps when it is turned off. Previously, I had my XMC-1 triggering the amps directly and it would put them into stand-by when it turned off. Is it harmful to have the PowerCenter cut/send power to the amps completely instead of them going into/out of stand-by every time I turn off/on the XMC-1? |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Nov 16, 2016 12:52:03 GMT -5
It's no problem at all..... cutting the mains power is exactly the same as switching off the rear-panel power switch. I was recently at a second hand store and picked up a Monster Reference PowerCenter HTS 2500 MKII for 10 bucks. It has a set of time delayed outlets that are meant for power amps. When it turns on, it sends power to the amps after six seconds. At turn off, it turns the amps off first. The unit also has a trigger. Using these, I set my XMC-1 to trigger the PowerCenter to send power to the amps when it is turned off. Previously, I had my XMC-1 triggering the amps directly and it would put them into stand-by when it turned off. Is it harmful to have the PowerCenter cut/send power to the amps completely instead of them going into/out of stand-by every time I turn off/on the XMC-1? |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Nov 16, 2016 13:15:12 GMT -5
I have had some Amplifiers (not Emotiva) produce a <THUMP> when the external power was removed instead of using the Amplifier's power switch. My JL Audio F112 Subwoofer tends to do this as an example. Personally I just leave everything on standby.
Casey
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butchgo
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Post by butchgo on Nov 16, 2016 18:44:24 GMT -5
I was recently at a second hand store and picked up a Monster Reference PowerCenter HTS 2500 MKII for 10 bucks. It has a set of time delayed outlets that are meant for power amps. When it turns on, it sends power to the amps after six seconds. At turn off, it turns the amps off first. The unit also has a trigger. Using these, I set my XMC-1 to trigger the PowerCenter to send power to the amps when it is turned off. Previously, I had my XMC-1 triggering the amps directly and it would put them into stand-by when it turned off. Is it harmful to have the PowerCenter cut/send power to the amps completely instead of them going into/out of stand-by every time I turn off/on the XMC-1? I have the Monster 3600 and that is exactly what I do with my XPA-1Ls. They power center is triggered by my Outlaw 990 processor with no problems at all. |
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Post by leonski on Nov 16, 2016 22:23:32 GMT -5
I've found that ANYTHING between the amp and the wall power makes a difference. And NOT to the better.
Electrically? No problem.
SQ? Proabably and issue.
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butchgo
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Post by butchgo on Nov 16, 2016 23:13:04 GMT -5
I've found that ANYTHING between the amp and the wall power makes a difference. And NOT to the better. Electrically? No problem. SQ? Proabably and issue. Why? |
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Post by leonski on Nov 17, 2016 0:36:11 GMT -5
Power must be as unrestricted as possible to a power amp. Power conditioners, even those with 'high power' outlets, tend to restrict power.
I have a Hi-End PANAMAX which even includes a 400va isolation transformer. Even the high power outlets caused a life-sucking when used with any of 3 amps I tried over the years.
Carver M400t. It would dim the house lights, clipping the voltage peaks on the house line. It wouldn't develop the power thru the power conditioner. Light flicker was LESS but so was available power.
Rotel RB1070. A smallish power amp. This was a marginal amp for my panels to begin with. Even LESS life thru the power conditioner. Lack of 4ohm rating was just the TIP of the Iceberg.
PSAudio GCC250. This was a 'd' integrated with B&O ASP modules. This came closest to working well, but was still better straight from the wall.
When installing a dedicated line TO the amps (I have one) many installers go as beefy as 10ga. while I stuck with 12.
I suspect MOST power amps, and depending on the OEM power cord, would benefit from a higher gauge power cord. My amps (2x Parasound A23) come with a 16ga cord. Going to 14ga, maybe Pangea or maybe a DIY cord using some flavor of Belden.
My power conditioner made a HUGE improvement to my CRT TV at the time. ALL snow disappeared. Once I put the amp to the house outlet, I had to rearrange (slightly) the speakers to improve image and stage. The background was 'black' to the point I had to pop my ears.
The preamp at that point was a well-regarded NAD1700 tuner/preamp. A very nice piece which was superceded by the inferior NAD1600 and later who knows? Digital / low current stuff was thru the Isolation Tranny while the TV was thru a 'normal outlet with its own path thru the conditioner.
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Post by hosko on Nov 17, 2016 5:59:02 GMT -5
I've found that ANYTHING between the amp and the wall power makes a difference. And NOT to the better. Electrically? No problem. SQ? Proabably and issue. A relay shouldn't cause any issue, its not filtering How a relay works Its just a switch powered by magnet. |
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Post by vneal on Nov 17, 2016 6:53:21 GMT -5
I would think no problem
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Nov 17, 2016 10:12:08 GMT -5
A mechanical relay is functionally just a switch with a solenoid actuated mechanical "switch flipper" attached. Unless it's damaged, a relay should never add significant resistance, or affect the sound in any way. However, if you run a relay over spec long enough, you can scorch the contact surfaces, and then they actually might not make good contact any more. But, of course, like a cheap switch, a really poor quality relay can simply fail to make good contact, which can restrict current flow and adversely affect sound quality. Note that many modern switched power outlets use a solid state relay - which is based on a triac or other similar "silicon switch". These can in fact add noise into the power or otherwise restrict it in odd and interesting ways (when they're on, they're just like a light dimmer turned all the way up). Also note that the power switches on a few amps may do something slightly more than just connecting the mains power. (And the mechanical design on some of them tend to discourage you from flipping them rapidly on and off - while a poorly designed relay may "chatter".) Specifically, on all our amps, the rear panel power switch does in fact simply disconnect the mains AC power from the entire unit. I've found that ANYTHING between the amp and the wall power makes a difference. And NOT to the better. Electrically? No problem. SQ? Proabably and issue. A relay shouldn't cause any issue, its not filtering How a relay works Its just a switch powered by magnet. |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Nov 17, 2016 12:15:47 GMT -5
Keith,
Any comment on Leonski's comments regarding Power Conditioners restricting current flow enough to affect a Power Amplifier?
Casey
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Post by leonski on Nov 17, 2016 12:21:07 GMT -5
The general rule is 'simpler is better'. A relay SHOULDN'T be a bad thing. I'm thinking specifically about power conditioners which have 'filter elements' of inductors or perhaps capacitors.
My conditioner, a high-end Panamax from years ago has time delay relays which if I used 'em would help me with turn on / off order.
Relay contacts DO wear. I've replaced my fair share a LONG time ago. We even had a special file set to 'dress' the contacts. My current gear, Parasound, has relays for preamp switching (very low current) and the AMPS have
relays which I presume are part of some protection circuit and also to allow the amp PS to stabilize before connecting the speakers to the output. CLICK.
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Post by RichGuy on Nov 18, 2016 10:56:52 GMT -5
Keith, Any comment on Leonski's comments regarding Power Conditioners restricting current flow enough to affect a Power Amplifier? Casey Some do and some don't, many power conditioners have one or two "High Current" outlets for amps so as not to be restrictive. However I have found even with the "High Current" outlets some power conditioners seem to limit amps and have a poor effect on sound quality, usually this is most noticeable with the sound of bass and powerful peaks. I auditioned quite a few power conditioners in my system before selecting one I felt had the best sound quality and the features I wanted. |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Nov 18, 2016 12:37:57 GMT -5
Hhmmm, I probably should have auditioned Power Conditioners I suppose. Honestly, I just treated it like an expensive Power Strip (and I used to have a $15 Power Strip just to get the outlet count I needed). So I pretty much just got the Furman Elite 15PFi Power Conditioner without any real analysis ... and I felt silly when I did get it because I know that all the components have properly designed Power Supplies which do all the Power Conditioning that they need. Casey |
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Post by leonski on Nov 18, 2016 15:02:55 GMT -5
Furman is on the 'good' list, IMO. I would NEVER buy anything 'Monster', mostly because of their predatory practices and the owner, Noel Lee. Because of the 'perks', sales guys where I briefly worked ALWAYS tried the upsell TO Monster. Monster tried to screw with BlueJeans Cable, the owner of which is a former attorney dealing with intellectual property. OOOPS! www.bluejeanscable.com/legal/mcp/Also, MOST people don't have access to an Isolation Transformer. This is a good item and I use my small one (400va) for ALL my low current and Digital stuff. The effect of my power conditioner was So Dramatic on my old (36", round front) CRT TV that even my wife with 20-2000 vision remarked on the difference. I personally do not know ANYONE who runs a power conditioner on their amps. If I lived in a place like FLORIDA with very Frequency Lightning Storms, I'd just start unplugging stuff and listening to a transistor radio! |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Nov 18, 2016 16:58:15 GMT -5
Like I said, I'm mostly treating the Furman as a glorified Power Strip ... :-)
Casey
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Post by leonski on Nov 18, 2016 20:10:26 GMT -5
Casey,
Try the amps directly into the wall, turn it up a BIT and report back. It might be better and certainly NO worse.
This should be true, except perhaps, for those who have a couple of XPR-1 monoblocs plugged into a 15amp service along with EVERYTHING else.
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Post by srpawski on Nov 18, 2016 22:54:29 GMT -5
I have a Panamax. Furman and Panamax are the same company.
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Post by leonski on Nov 18, 2016 23:37:45 GMT -5
Not 15 or so years ago when I bought my Panamax. I'd be curious to know WHO bought WHOM? Or did a holding company buy them BOTH?
Downside to Panamax? They WOULDN'T tell me what MOV is used in my device. I've had it long enough to think about changing the MOVs. They DO wear out.
They want some wacky price to replace them. FWIW, the MOV device is Commodity Cheap. Like a buck apiece or maybe less.
They made some excuse about INSURANCE!
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Post by RichGuy on Nov 19, 2016 0:50:09 GMT -5
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