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Post by brubacca on Nov 20, 2016 10:01:35 GMT -5
Ok. In my personal opinion it has been a bit boring here lately. So I am throwing out an intentionally controversial topic. So here we go (again), anothes tubes vs ss argument.
Lately I have been struggling with the ease of use factor of my stereo. I can use it just fine, but I wamt my family to be able to enjoy it more. I wanted it to be easier to use for them because I know how much I enjoy listening to music. I want to give that joy to them (children 6 yr old and 8 yr old).
In the spirit of this I setup an all SS system. Well once again that lasted about a week amd a half. For pure musical enjoyment in my space and to my taste the SS setup can't hold a candle to the tube setup. We are talking emotiva all the way vs my rogue audio cronus magnum. I've actually tried 2 SS setups. First was just a Sherourn PA2-50, then a Naim Unitiqute w/ a pair of xpa-100.
I'm sorry to say this, but emotiva missed the boat on the unreleased tube gear. Tube gear is flat out more musical.
Commence agreeing or flaming. Please remember it is meant for fun.
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klinemj
Emo VIPs 
Official Emofest Scribe
Posts: 15,092
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Post by klinemj on Nov 20, 2016 10:15:49 GMT -5
As one who is strongly considering building some tube gear (and already owns 2 non-Emotiva amps), I agree. I would have loved to have seen what Emotiva could have done in the tube world.
Mark
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Post by pedrocols on Nov 20, 2016 11:10:59 GMT -5
Interesting enough, the amp I enjoy the most from Emotiva was the low power one over their monoblocks higher power go figured.
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Post by 405x5 on Nov 20, 2016 14:31:24 GMT -5
Anyone who spends time with a Sunfire Amplifier will forget about any Solid State VS Tubes debate in Short order.
I love the Emotiva XMC 1 but in my opinion, Sunfire solid state amplifiers are the finest in the world regardless of price.
Bill
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Post by vneal on Nov 20, 2016 15:25:28 GMT -5
For two channel I would go for some D Sonic high power solid state mono amps or Emotiva mono amps and for the preamp the tubed brand of your choice( McIntosh, ARC, Jadis, VAC, or Conrad Johnson). Best of both worlds---plenty of ss power and that sweet tube sound thru a tubed pre
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Post by yves on Nov 20, 2016 16:18:58 GMT -5
It IMO mostly depends on speakers you have. In addition, I find that good sounding tube amps are lacking power output unless you go more expensive, like spending $5,000 on a pair of Eastern Electric M156 monoblocks, for example.
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Post by pedrocols on Nov 20, 2016 20:26:41 GMT -5
It IMO mostly depends on speakers you have. In addition, I find that good sounding tube amps are lacking power output unless you go more expensive, like spending $5,000 on a pair of Eastern Electric M156 monoblocks, for example. Either that or some Bob Latino VTA M-125 Monoblocks! Jut ask my Magnepan speakers and they will gladly sing back to you the answer...  |
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Post by jmasterj on Nov 21, 2016 2:10:40 GMT -5
First thing I want to add to this topic is that I have three different power configurations and all of them include tubes. So I truly enjoy tube equipment. Now having said that, I don't think Emotiva missed the boat by not developing any tube gear. I for one would have loved to see them and Bob Carver come up with some affordable tube gear. I think they decided not to because of pricing. At the time they were considering tube gear Bob Carvers cheapest tube amp was the VTA20S Black Magic power amp it cost $1,690.00 for a twenty watt per channel amp. Most consumers were looking for high power stereo, or mono block solid state amps, or multi channel amps for home theater, so the question they faced is would these customers spend that amount of cash on twenty watts, or would they prefer a 500 watt/channel solid state amp for that cash. Keep in mind Bob Carver wouldn't want to undercut the price of his own Black Magic amp and develop something cheaper for Emotiva, that would be like shooting himself in the foot, so to speak. So that would mean Emotiva would have to price something higher than $1,700.00 in that collaboration, they realistically did not see a market that they could compete and make a profit. Then there is the cheap Chinese gear which I own, some consider it trash I don't. I for one don't because all of mine fire up every time I turn them on, they sound good to me and they play all day with no problems. My first piece of cheap Chinese gear that I purchased is the BADA DC-222 Hybrid it's six years old and it's never been serviced it has the same upgraded tubes in it I purchased when I brought it for $800.00 in twenty ten. It sounds just as good as the first day after it got broken in.
Lets say Emotiva decided to develop their own tube gear without Bob Carver then they could price it cheaper then the $1,700.00 Black Magic, maybe come in at $1,200 or $1,500.00. Lets say these tube amps are typical Emotiva stuff good product for a good price well liked by some, "BECAUSE NOT EVERYBODY LIKES THE TUBE SOUND" and how many watts would it be, then would that cut into the sales of the solid state stereo, and mono block amps( for less profit)? I think Emotiva made a sound business decision not investing in tube gear. In this case the needs of the many out weighted the needs of a few. Not trying to throw flames just exploring some reasons that could have influenced the decision not to get into tube gear at the time. Don't forget Emotiva still has the option to go tube if they decide to at a later date.
Just for me if I had to choose between a $1,700.00 twenty watt/channel tube amp or two 250 watts/channel stereo mono blocks for $600.00 that's a no brainer.
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Post by simpleman68 on Nov 21, 2016 9:24:36 GMT -5
It IMO mostly depends on speakers you have. In addition, I find that good sounding tube amps are lacking power output unless you go more expensive, like spending $5,000 on a pair of Eastern Electric M156 monoblocks, for example. Spot on in my opinion. I've said it before but combination is everything. I've had great amps sound grainy/harsh on certain speakers and vice versa. I think the old SS vs Tubes is simple and comes down to personal preference. (provided you've got a well matched rig) They each have different qualities but very different sound signatures. Personally, I wish I could have the accuracy and clean power of my old Parasound JC1s but with the warmth and depth of stage of some tubes I've heard. Even my low powered little Dynaco has wonderful stage and musicality but the JC1s obliterate it in terms of accuracy, range and clean reproduction. Scott |
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Post by brubacca on Nov 21, 2016 10:39:59 GMT -5
I have never tried the whole tube pre with SS amp angle. I may grab a Schiit Freya when it comes out to try one.
How does Tube Pre/SS amp compare to all tube setup?
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Post by gzubeck on Nov 21, 2016 12:06:00 GMT -5
All I can say is that the sound quality vastly improved when I upgraded my dac to the bifrost 4490 using my emo a100. I currently have an a300 on order and will have it on Friday. I thought about waiting for the vidar but it's 3 months away plus I'm not crazy about being the first for a new design. But the the vidar should be something special at $700 dollars. I'm going to see if there's enough improvement using the a300 as my power requirements are not huge using my current setup. The a100 provides nice midrange and midbase but I think there might be some real improvements in deep base as I've heard better on my speakers with Marantz hdams amps.
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Post by jmasterj on Nov 21, 2016 12:06:05 GMT -5
My humble opinion is that the tube pre solid state combo can sound as enchanting as a all tube amp. But I need to add that the all tube Yaqin MS-30L amp I own has that little extra tubbiness to me. Two of my power configurations are tube pre with solid state power. The more I listen to my XPA-100 mono block tube pre combo the more I like it. To me it's like the best of both worlds, and I'd definitely recommend it. Solid state power amps tend to be cheaper than the all tube amp counterpart, and the amount of power you choose is up to your own taste or budget. A tube pre amp will add that tube sound and you have the option to roll the tubes so you can make it more or less tubbier to suite your own personal taste. When I purchased my mono blocks I didn't even consider using them without a tube pre amp. I think everyone with decent power should at least try a tube pre with it just to experiment.
I rolled, or changed two pair of the stock Chinese tubes in my Xiang Sheng 728A tube pre to JJ,s when I purchased it from China. I haven't rolled them since each of my amp configurations has it's own identity or sound characteristics I like the fact that they don't sound exactly alike it gives me something different to look forward to when I change up. I suggest you give a tube pre a listen to see if you like it.
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Post by pedrocols on Nov 21, 2016 12:06:42 GMT -5
I liked it a lot when I had tube pre and ss amps. Now that I have tube amps I don't use an active preamp anymore. Tube pre with tube amp was good but getting rid of the preamp to me is been the best decision.
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Post by rbk123 on Nov 21, 2016 12:59:05 GMT -5
I'm sorry to say this, but emotiva missed the boat on the unreleased tube gear. Tube gear is flat out more musical. The only way Emotiva missed the boat is if they could be making more $$ on tube amps, than the $$ they are making on the amps they have released. I doubt that is the case. |
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Post by leonski on Nov 21, 2016 16:12:32 GMT -5
Emo and Naim? That's not a system, IMO.
What are your musical values? Do you listen to live music? What kind of speakers go with your Rogue? Do you use another speaker with the SS gear?
EMO would be getting into a WAY different demographic trying to Mass-Market Tube gear to peopel who consider an 800$ amp to be 'high end'.
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Post by brubacca on Nov 21, 2016 17:34:56 GMT -5
Emo and Naim? That's not a system, IMO. What are your musical values? Do you listen to live music? What kind of speakers go with your Rogue? Do you use another speaker with the SS gear? EMO would be getting into a WAY different demographic trying to Mass-Market Tube gear to peopel who consider an 800$ amp to be 'high end'. Actually the Emotiva Amp and Naim UnitiQute are a great pair. If I had never heard the Rogue I'd probably be completely happy with that setup. Also the Qute itself is a great little performer, if a bit underpowered for loud listening in my room. Both my speakers are adept in either system. Sonus Faber Venere 1.5 and Soliloquy 5.0 monitor. I really want to try some floorstanders to fill my space a bit better. My source is the Sonore MicroRendu feeding Schiit Gumby DAC and my VPI Traveler w/ Ortofon 2M Blue. |
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Post by yves on Nov 22, 2016 3:48:27 GMT -5
It IMO mostly depends on speakers you have. In addition, I find that good sounding tube amps are lacking power output unless you go more expensive, like spending $5,000 on a pair of Eastern Electric M156 monoblocks, for example. Either that or some Bob Latino VTA M-125 Monoblocks! Jut ask my Magnepan speakers and they will gladly sing back to you the answer... TBH the sound of KT88 tubes hasn't really been my bucket of tea, and the same applies to Maggies (again, unless you go more expensive on them than the 3.6 and you have the room for them... I digress). Granted, you could decide to grab the Tung-Sol KT120 tubes to noticeably improve the sound of the Bob Latino VTA M-125 kit and obtain about 10 watts extra power output as a small yet appreaciable bonus, BUT... if given the choice between these two options, I still believe the Shuguang EL156 tubes with the Eastern Electric M156 to be the better deal because you have to hear the M156 monoblocks in person to understand my point. |
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Post by pedrocols on Nov 22, 2016 7:22:35 GMT -5
Either that or some Bob Latino VTA M-125 Monoblocks! Jut ask my Magnepan speakers and they will gladly sing back to you the answer... TBH the sound of KT88 tubes hasn't really been my bucket of tea, and the same applies to Maggies (again, unless you go more expensive on them than the 3.6 and you have the room for them... I digress). Granted, you could decide to grab the Tung-Sol KT120 tubes to noticeably improve the sound of the Bob Latino VTA M-125 kit and obtain about 10 watts extra power output as a small yet appreaciable bonus, BUT... if given the choice between these two options, I still believe the Shuguang EL156 tubes with the Eastern Electric M156 to be the better deal because you have to hear the M156 monoblocks in person to understand my point. You need to also listen to the M-125 extensively as I have which I know you haven't. I am currently running the KT120s. Nevertheless, it is all about personal preference. Besides I am not portraying nor suggeting the M-125s as being better, only as an option. |
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Post by yves on Nov 22, 2016 9:17:10 GMT -5
You need to also listen to the M-125 extensively as I have which I know you haven't. |
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Post by gld3gld3 on Nov 22, 2016 10:24:59 GMT -5
I have never tried the whole tube pre with SS amp angle. I may grab a Schiit Freya when it comes out to try one. How does Tube Pre/SS amp compare to all tube setup? I am thinking of going this route. I have yet to dive into tubes, but the Freya or Saga seem like just the ticket. You can still go all solid state (buffer or gain) or tube (buffer or gain). Both of these preamps look excellent and early opinions of the Saga are positive! |
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