Crossover Levels at 80 or full range? Are you bi-wiring?

[chiwestsider]

The XPA-1's (Gen 2) have headroom galore.  Is it still advised to set the crossovers to 80 or does that matter with such a powerful amp (for 5+ channel listening and also for 2 channel)?  I am running my system on 2 x XPA-1 (Gen 2's), 1 x XPA-5 (Gen 3) for 7 channel base layer, and a Denon AVR-X6200W for 4 heights. All Klipsch speakers with high sensitivity (and 2 15" subs).  

The XPA-1's have dual positive posts and dual negative posts.  Is it advised to bi-wire the Left and Right speakers?  Will there be anything gained? 

[niuguy]

Maybe I'm blind but I'm not seeing which model of speakers you're running.  Although the chances are the answer is the same IMO (don't run full)

[RichGuy]

Crossover settings should be set more for what speakers are being used than anything else. While 80hz is THX recommendation I prefer lower settings when speakers capable of good lower levels are used.

I also use Klipsch speakers here are my own settings on my processor, RF-5 fronts - 55hz, RC-7 center - 55 hz, RS-7 side surrounds - 55hz and RS-3 rear surrounds - 60 hz. All speakers set to SMALL so to take advantage of the crossover settings.

On my XSP-1 for 2 channel I set my two crossover settings all the way to its lowest setting of 50 hz.

These are set based both on speaker capabilities and my own comparison testing and what I felt sounded the best on my own system. I recommend you make your own settings by your speakers capabilities and then comparing a few different setting levels based on those capabilities.

Basically if you are running a subwoofer use the SMALL setting and then set your crossover settings to your speakers abilities, do not use full range when using a subwoofer, you want to use the crossover settings to direct your lowest hz to the sub while keeping your speakers working in their best hz ranges.

Bi-wiring is something many people will say does nothing, personally I prefer my speakers bi-wired and through my own comparisons I feel it brings out a very slight sound quality benefit, I bi-wire my front and center speakers.

[chiwestsider]

RF-62II x2, RC-62II, RS-62II x2, RS-52II x2, RP-140SA x4, R115-SW x2
XPA-1 (Gen2) x2, XPA-5 (Gen3)

[RichGuy]

Dec 10, 2016 2:57:14 GMT -5 chiwestsider said:

RF-62II x2, RC-62II, RS-62II x2, RS-52II x2, RP-140SA x4, R115-SW x2
XPA-1 (Gen2) x2, XPA-5 (Gen3)

For those speakers I would recommend trying and comparing settings between 60 hz and 80 hz and decide which you like the best on your system. I think you will benefit with settings below 80 hz do some testing and make some comparisons of your own.

[chiwestsider]

Dec 10, 2016 3:07:11 GMT -5 RichGuy said:

Dec 10, 2016 2:57:14 GMT -5 chiwestsider said:

RF-62II x2, RC-62II, RS-62II x2, RS-52II x2, RP-140SA x4, R115-SW x2
XPA-1 (Gen2) x2, XPA-5 (Gen3)

For those speakers I would recommend trying and comparing settings between 60 hz and 80 hz and decide which you like the best on your system. I think you will benefit with settings below 80 hz do some testing and make some comparisons of your own.

I will start with 60 hz and go from there.  Thanks for taking the time to respond. 

(It's like I'm afraid to try something until someone say's "It's okay, you can try it. You won't break it" )Lol

or 

I don't want to waste trying trying something pointless, unless someone else has wasted their time first!

[vneal]

Start with 80
Move up or down in 10HZ increments
Select the one you like the best

My personal setup sounds best with these settings. The JL Audio system is somewhat more adjustable than many subs:

Input mode- SLAVE (it would be set to MASTER if I only had one sub)
Level Mode- VARIABLE ( I can adjust and tweek the volume level by hand which is my preference. I can also set to reference where my processor control this)
LIGHTS- ON ( I can adjust the front level lights REG-DIM -OR OFF)
LP FILTER ( I think every sub should have this ( mine is set to 12 db. I can set to 24 db or off)
LP Frequency ( I use 70 hz)
elf Trim ( -12,-8,-3 0 +1, =2 =3. I set mine at 0)
Phase (again all subs should have this. Mine is set at 0. My choices are 0, 45, 90,125, 190, 225 & 270
Polarity(0 or 180 deg. Mine is set at 0
And of course Volume( the master level has automatic room equalization when set to 12 o clock. I usually use this and back the sub down a click for my room.

I have had other subs but really believe JL Audio makes the best at each price range. And no I am not a bass freak. I probably have it turned down more than the average listener. I like smooth punch bass with no boom boom rap type sound

SHORT ANSWER--Whatever sub you use start out with 80 and experiment. There usually is a best setting. Two subs really do smooth it out. With one only I would put in the middle but since so many listeners have their system there this may not be possible. I personally then would put it near one of the front speakers and never on the side or rear of a listener(a solo sub) Me I actually have one next to the front right and one 1/2 down the left wall. This is where I find that fit for my room which is open left side and back to another room.

And I would usually pull a sub out from a corner 1-2 feet to smooth out the sound. I have had Velodyne ported and my JL is non ported. So I prefer non ported but realizes SVS, Magico, JL Audio, REL,  & Golden Ear would all be on my short list for a sub

I Bi Wire my front speakers. Most here believe it is a waste of cable. All I know is my system sounds good

[niuguy]

Dec 10, 2016 2:57:14 GMT -5 chiwestsider said:

RF-62II x2, RC-62II, RS-62II x2, RS-52II x2, RP-140SA x4, R115-SW x2
XPA-1 (Gen2) x2, XPA-5 (Gen3)

I had almost exactly this same setup (speaker-wise). I crossed my RF-62 IIs over at 80hz.  I don't think bi-wiring serves any purpose with these speakers that can only take 125 watts or max RMS and are efficient. 

[novisnick]

Dec 10, 2016 12:27:17 GMT -5 niuguy said:

Dec 10, 2016 2:57:14 GMT -5 chiwestsider said:

RF-62II x2, RC-62II, RS-62II x2, RS-52II x2, RP-140SA x4, R115-SW x2
XPA-1 (Gen2) x2, XPA-5 (Gen3)

I had almost exactly this same setup (speaker-wise). I crossed my RF-62 IIs over at 80hz.  I don't think bi-wiring serves any purpose with these speakers that can only take 125 watts or max RMS and are efficient. 

I respectfully disagree. 

[chiwestsider]

Dec 10, 2016 12:27:17 GMT -5 niuguy said:

Dec 10, 2016 2:57:14 GMT -5 chiwestsider said:

RF-62II x2, RC-62II, RS-62II x2, RS-52II x2, RP-140SA x4, R115-SW x2
XPA-1 (Gen2) x2, XPA-5 (Gen3)

  I don't think bi-wiring serves any purpose with these speakers that can only take 125 watts or max RMS and are efficient. 

You are speaking from trial and error right?

[Boomzilla]

IMHO, the frequency response of the main speakers determines:

Whether to run the main speakers full-range or not
What frequency (if any) the crossover should be set at

Note that if the bass response of the main speakers drops off within an octave or two of the crossover point, then the "slope" of the roll off varies from design intent. In other words, if I have a small bookshelf speaker that naturally rolls-off at 60 Hz, and I'm using an 80 Hz. electronic crossover with it, that the actual LF response of the speaker begins rolling off ABOVE 80 Hz and then drops precipitously below 60 Hz (where the natural roll-off and the electronic roll-off combine). This is likely to leave a broad dip in the bass response at and below the crossover frequency.

Matching is further complicated in ported main speakers because they typically have a slight peak in their bass just above the port-tuning frequency and then roll off at 12 dB per octave. Properly-designed sealed-box speakers lack that peak and then roll off more smoothly at 6 dB per octave.

These things ALL affect crossover performance. First and third order crossovers (6 dB per octave, 18 dB per octave, respectively) usually need to have the subwoofer "in phase" with the main speakers to avoid a dip at the crossover frequency. Second and fourth order crossovers (12 dB per octave, 24 dB per octave, respectively) usually need to have the subwoofer "out of phase" (180 degrees) to avoid a dip at the crossover frequency.

If there is to be an overlap at the blend point of the main speakers (running full range) and the subwoofer, then the phasing will need to be adjusted to add reinforcement or cancellation at the overlap frequencies.

So in short, there IS no "easy answer" as to whether main speakers should be run full range or crossed over electronically. But some simple rules of thumb are:


1. If you're GOING to cross over electronically, set the crossover frequency at least twice the main speakers' "-3dB point" on the bass. In other words, if your main speakers go down to 45 Hz, cross them over to a sub at a minimum of 90 Hz. or higher.

2. Remember that if you're using ported main speakers full-range, their natural roll-off is 12 dB per octave. You'll have to read your subwoofer manual to find out what the sub low-pass filter slope is. If it's anything other than 12 or 24 dB per octave, some phase adjustment will be required.

3. If you're using electronic room correction, then it can compensate for peaks, but not dips. Therefore set the sub crossover to produce the most bass & then run room correction to let the peak be reduced.

4. If you opt to run your main speakers full-range, all bets are off. You may have to experiment with subwoofer placement, low-pass frequency, gain, and phase to get a match.

5. And finally, room correction is still in its infancy. Don't expect miracles, and if what it does isn't sounding good to you, TURN OFF THE BLOODY ROOM CORRECTION and do it yourself.

Cheers - Boomzilla

[LCSeminole]

Dec 10, 2016 12:34:47 GMT -5 novisnick said:

Dec 10, 2016 12:27:17 GMT -5 niuguy said:

I had almost exactly this same setup (speaker-wise). I crossed my RF-62 IIs over at 80hz.  I don't think bi-wiring serves any purpose with these speakers that can only take 125 watts or max RMS and are efficient. 

I respectfully disagree. 

Personally I don't believe in bi-wirng, given the aspects of the wiring are all equal(ie: length, gauge of the sample). As for crossover settings on these speakers (Klipsch RF-62 II Frequency Response: 35Hz-24KHz ± 3dB) I've always used as a rule of thumb to start with a crossover point about 10Hz above the low end frequency of the speaker as roll off plays large part in question and go from there for one's taste in the produced sound.

[LCSeminole]

Dec 10, 2016 13:35:26 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

IMHO, the frequency response of the main speakers determines:

Whether to run the main speakers full-range or not
What frequency (if any) the crossover should be set at

Note that if the bass response of the main speakers drops off within an octave or two of the crossover point, then the "slope" of the roll off varies from design intent. In other words, if I have a small bookshelf speaker that naturally rolls-off at 60 Hz, and I'm using an 80 Hz. electronic crossover with it, that the actual LF response of the speaker begins rolling off ABOVE 80 Hz and then drops precipitously below 60 Hz (where the natural roll-off and the electronic roll-off combine). This is likely to leave a broad dip in the bass response at and below the crossover frequency.

Matching is further complicated in ported main speakers because they typically have a slight peak in their bass just above the port-tuning frequency and then roll off at 12 dB per octave. Properly-designed sealed-box speakers lack that peak and then roll off more smoothly at 6 dB per octave.

These things ALL affect crossover performance. Even order crossovers (6 dB per octave, 18 dB per octave) usually need to have the subwoofer "in phase" with the main speakers to avoid a dip at the crossover frequency. Odd order crossovers (12 dB per octave, 24 dB per octave) usually need to have the subwoofer "out of phase" (180 degrees) to avoid a dip at the crossover frequency.

If there is to be an overlap at the blend point of the main speakers (running full range) and the subwoofer, then the phasing will need to be adjusted to add reinforcement or cancellation at the overlap frequencies.

So in short, there IS no "easy answer" as to whether main speakers should be run full range or crossed over electronically. But some simple rules of thumb are:

If you're GOING to cross over electronically, set the crossover frequency at least twice the main speakers' "-3dB point" on the bass. In other words, if your main speakers go down to 45 Hz, cross them over to a sub at a minimum of 90 Hz. or higher.
Remember that if you're using ported main speakers, their natural roll-off is 12 dB per octave. You'll have to read your subwoofer manual to find out what the sub low-pass filter slope is. If it's anything other than 12 or 24 dB per octave, some phase adjustment will be required.
If you're using electronic room correction, then it can compensate for peaks, but not dips. Therefore set the sub crossover to produce the most bass & then run room correction to let the peak be reduced.
If you opt to run your main speakers full-range, all bets are off. You may have to experiment with subwoofer placement, gain, and phase to get a match.
And finally, room correction is still in its infancy. Don't expect miracles, and if what it does isn't sounding good to you, TURN OFF THE BLOODY ROOM CORRECTION and do it yourself.

Cheers - Boomzilla

This by far is one of the best postings on crossover setting guidance I've read. Though not many are going to put in the time to properly setup their speakers with the right subwoofer placement.

[niuguy]

Dec 10, 2016 13:21:22 GMT -5 chiwestsider said:

Dec 10, 2016 12:27:17 GMT -5 niuguy said:

  I don't think bi-wiring serves any purpose with these speakers that can only take 125 watts or max RMS and are efficient. 

You are speaking from trial and error right?

Nope, I read the stats on my speakers correctly the first time.

[RichGuy]

Dec 10, 2016 13:35:26 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

IMHO, the frequency response of the main speakers determines:

Whether to run the main speakers full-range or not
What frequency (if any) the crossover should be set at

Note that if the bass response of the main speakers drops off within an octave or two of the crossover point, then the "slope" of the roll off varies from design intent. In other words, if I have a small bookshelf speaker that naturally rolls-off at 60 Hz, and I'm using an 80 Hz. electronic crossover with it, that the actual LF response of the speaker begins rolling off ABOVE 80 Hz and then drops precipitously below 60 Hz (where the natural roll-off and the electronic roll-off combine). This is likely to leave a broad dip in the bass response at and below the crossover frequency.

Matching is further complicated in ported main speakers because they typically have a slight peak in their bass just above the port-tuning frequency and then roll off at 12 dB per octave. Properly-designed sealed-box speakers lack that peak and then roll off more smoothly at 6 dB per octave.

These things ALL affect crossover performance. Even order crossovers (6 dB per octave, 18 dB per octave) usually need to have the subwoofer "in phase" with the main speakers to avoid a dip at the crossover frequency. Odd order crossovers (12 dB per octave, 24 dB per octave) usually need to have the subwoofer "out of phase" (180 degrees) to avoid a dip at the crossover frequency.

If there is to be an overlap at the blend point of the main speakers (running full range) and the subwoofer, then the phasing will need to be adjusted to add reinforcement or cancellation at the overlap frequencies.

So in short, there IS no "easy answer" as to whether main speakers should be run full range or crossed over electronically. But some simple rules of thumb are:

If you're GOING to cross over electronically, set the crossover frequency at least twice the main speakers' "-3dB point" on the bass. In other words, if your main speakers go down to 45 Hz, cross them over to a sub at a minimum of 90 Hz. or higher.
Remember that if you're using ported main speakers, their natural roll-off is 12 dB per octave. You'll have to read your subwoofer manual to find out what the sub low-pass filter slope is. If it's anything other than 12 or 24 dB per octave, some phase adjustment will be required.
If you're using electronic room correction, then it can compensate for peaks, but not dips. Therefore set the sub crossover to produce the most bass & then run room correction to let the peak be reduced.
If you opt to run your main speakers full-range, all bets are off. You may have to experiment with subwoofer placement, gain, and phase to get a match.
And finally, room correction is still in its infancy. Don't expect miracles, and if what it does isn't sounding good to you, TURN OFF THE BLOODY ROOM CORRECTION and do it yourself.

Cheers - Boomzilla

I disagree with much of this.

Using a good sub and speakers I feel it is always better to use the crossover settings and not set speakers at full range, full range should be only used if you have either no subwoofer at all or not a very well matched set of speakers/subwoofer. Just as speakers have internal crossovers within the speaker themselves between woofers/tweeters etc., when you add a subwoofer it works best to add a crossover between the speaker and the subwoofer directing the best frequency to the best individual speaker in the system.

I also feel your crossover setting recommendations are far too high. I prefer to use a main speaker to get the best of its abilities then let the subwoofer take over. With a good blending your main speakers should show their capabilities while the subwoofer will come in at a point below the hz where the human ear detects what direction the sound is coming from.

[LCSeminole]

Dec 10, 2016 14:29:57 GMT -5 RichGuy said:

Dec 10, 2016 13:35:26 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

IMHO, the frequency response of the main speakers determines:

Whether to run the main speakers full-range or not
What frequency (if any) the crossover should be set at

Note that if the bass response of the main speakers drops off within an octave or two of the crossover point, then the "slope" of the roll off varies from design intent. In other words, if I have a small bookshelf speaker that naturally rolls-off at 60 Hz, and I'm using an 80 Hz. electronic crossover with it, that the actual LF response of the speaker begins rolling off ABOVE 80 Hz and then drops precipitously below 60 Hz (where the natural roll-off and the electronic roll-off combine). This is likely to leave a broad dip in the bass response at and below the crossover frequency.

Matching is further complicated in ported main speakers because they typically have a slight peak in their bass just above the port-tuning frequency and then roll off at 12 dB per octave. Properly-designed sealed-box speakers lack that peak and then roll off more smoothly at 6 dB per octave.

These things ALL affect crossover performance. Even order crossovers (6 dB per octave, 18 dB per octave) usually need to have the subwoofer "in phase" with the main speakers to avoid a dip at the crossover frequency. Odd order crossovers (12 dB per octave, 24 dB per octave) usually need to have the subwoofer "out of phase" (180 degrees) to avoid a dip at the crossover frequency.

If there is to be an overlap at the blend point of the main speakers (running full range) and the subwoofer, then the phasing will need to be adjusted to add reinforcement or cancellation at the overlap frequencies.

So in short, there IS no "easy answer" as to whether main speakers should be run full range or crossed over electronically. But some simple rules of thumb are:

If you're GOING to cross over electronically, set the crossover frequency at least twice the main speakers' "-3dB point" on the bass. In other words, if your main speakers go down to 45 Hz, cross them over to a sub at a minimum of 90 Hz. or higher.
Remember that if you're using ported main speakers, their natural roll-off is 12 dB per octave. You'll have to read your subwoofer manual to find out what the sub low-pass filter slope is. If it's anything other than 12 or 24 dB per octave, some phase adjustment will be required.
If you're using electronic room correction, then it can compensate for peaks, but not dips. Therefore set the sub crossover to produce the most bass & then run room correction to let the peak be reduced.
If you opt to run your main speakers full-range, all bets are off. You may have to experiment with subwoofer placement, gain, and phase to get a match.
And finally, room correction is still in its infancy. Don't expect miracles, and if what it does isn't sounding good to you, TURN OFF THE BLOODY ROOM CORRECTION and do it yourself.

Cheers - Boomzilla

I disagree with much of this.

Using a good sub and speakers I feel it is always better to use the crossover settings and not set speakers at full range, full range should be only used if you have either no subwoofer at all or not a very well matched set of speakers/subwoofer. Just as speakers have internal crossovers within the speaker themselves between woofers/tweeters etc., when you add a subwoofer it works best to add a crossover between the speaker and the subwoofer directing the best frequency to the best individual speaker in the system.

I also feel your crossover setting recommendations are far too high. I prefer to use a main speaker to get the best of its abilities then let the subwoofer take over. With a good blending your main speakers should show their capabilities while the subwoofer will come in at a point below the hz where the human ear detects what direction the sound is coming from.

I didn't read in to his post that he is a proponent of running speakers at full range, only that there are factors that help in determining whether to run a speaker at full range or not and what a crossover should be set at when not running at full range. His starting point is a bit high of a crossover for my tastes, but otherwise the end results seem to be close to my conclusions.

[beardedalbatross]

I am personally ok with setting the crossover point at 80hz for hometheater. In a 2.1 system, I normally try to go lower. For example, setting the crossover at 65 hz in 2.1 does wonders in minimizing the localization of bass and blends everything much more nicely than the standard 80. Of course, generalizations don't really work as it mostly depends on your speakers, your room, and to an (dare I say lesser?) extent your ears!

[novisnick]

Dec 10, 2016 13:50:10 GMT -5 LCSeminole said:

Dec 10, 2016 12:34:47 GMT -5 novisnick said:

I respectfully disagree. 

Personally I don't believe in bi-wirng, given the aspects of the wiring are all equal(ie: length, gauge of the sample). As for crossover settings on these speakers (Klipsch RF-62 II Frequency Response: 35Hz-24KHz ± 3dB) I've always used as a rule of thumb to start with a crossover point about 10Hz above the low end frequency of the speaker as roll off plays large part in question and go from there for one's taste in the produced sound.

Perhaps I was thinking of bi-amping!   

                                   

[Boomzilla]

Dec 10, 2016 14:29:57 GMT -5 RichGuy said:

I disagree with much of this.

Using a good sub and speakers I feel it is always better to use the crossover settings and not set speakers at full range, full range should be only used if you have either no subwoofer at all or not a very well matched set of speakers/subwoofer. Just as speakers have internal crossovers within the speaker themselves between woofers/tweeters etc., when you add a subwoofer it works best to add a crossover between the speaker and the subwoofer directing the best frequency to the best individual speaker in the system.

I also feel your crossover setting recommendations are far too high. I prefer to use a main speaker to get the best of its abilities then let the subwoofer take over. With a good blending your main speakers should show their capabilities while the subwoofer will come in at a point below the hz where the human ear detects what direction the sound is coming from.

You're welcome to disagree. But most of what I stated isn't opinion. It's fact.

Despite your contention that "it works best to add a crossover between the speaker and the subwoofer..." that's NOT always the case. If the speaker rolls off naturally at a rate compatible with the sub's low-pass filter, then running the main speaker full range can work just fine.

As to the crossover setting recommendation, the majority of available advice is consistent with mine. Since most "main" speakers intended for HT use these days have 40 Hz. bass roll-off frequencies, then the THX spec for 80 Hz. crossover is EXACTLY the same as my recommendation.

Cordially - Boom

[RichGuy]

Dec 11, 2016 8:35:55 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Dec 10, 2016 14:29:57 GMT -5 RichGuy said:

I disagree with much of this.

Using a good sub and speakers I feel it is always better to use the crossover settings and not set speakers at full range, full range should be only used if you have either no subwoofer at all or not a very well matched set of speakers/subwoofer. Just as speakers have internal crossovers within the speaker themselves between woofers/tweeters etc., when you add a subwoofer it works best to add a crossover between the speaker and the subwoofer directing the best frequency to the best individual speaker in the system.

I also feel your crossover setting recommendations are far too high. I prefer to use a main speaker to get the best of its abilities then let the subwoofer take over. With a good blending your main speakers should show their capabilities while the subwoofer will come in at a point below the hz where the human ear detects what direction the sound is coming from.

You're welcome to disagree. But most of what I stated isn't opinion. It's fact.

Despite your contention that "it works best to add a crossover between the speaker and the subwoofer..." that's NOT always the case. If the speaker rolls off naturally at a rate compatible with the sub's low-pass filter, then running the main speaker full range can work just fine.

As to the crossover setting recommendation, the majority of available advice is consistent with mine. Since most "main" speakers intended for HT use these days have 40 Hz. bass roll-off frequencies, then the THX spec for 80 Hz. crossover is EXACTLY the same as my recommendation.

Cordially - Boom

Well as I said I disagree a speaker that rolls off at 40 hz should benefit from a lower crossover point than 80 hz as long as it has a well mated sub, at 80 hz the sub is too localized and bass from the main speakers is not localized enough. This type of setting makes a system sound more like satellite speakers being used with a sub and does not take advantage of better speakers capabilities. Using a crossover point of around 60 hz to 70 hz should sound much better and let the sub blend into the system rather than stand out apart from it. The THX recommendations of 80 hz works best for lesser capable speakers.