LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Jul 28, 2017 22:32:08 GMT -5
The Oppo BDP-x3 components aren't balanced from the analog output stage, so the signal integrity isn't 100% balanced the whole way through the chain. Whether we can actually hear it is subjective, especially with the really short cable runs most of us use, which is the main reason for balanced cables in reducing external noise from electromagnetic interference. I wouldn't disagree or argue your point but with so many different pieces of gear there's no telling weather or not it helps. YMMV Nick, I'm only speaking theoretically and yes I admit I may be sounding a bit like one of my physics professors, Dr Magnun, from back in my college days at Florida State University.  As I said in an earlier post, the small difference, if at all, probably won't make much of a difference in 99% of home theater setups. |
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Post by monkumonku on Jul 28, 2017 23:27:52 GMT -5
But even so, I would think the main question is if you can hear any difference between using the 103 versus a 105. Even though the 103 may be the "weakest link," is it audible? Then from there it goes to if the person can't hear a difference then they are told that their system isn't "resolving" enough.  Personally I think the main thing most of us hear is the +3db increase in dynamic range with balanced designs, but yes I would tend to agree with the "inaudible is inaudible" argument, but nonetheless, there are those that want the no-holds-barred full balanced circuit design and will swear they hear that difference. If it makes one happy in their listening experience, so be it. I agree with you. If we're going to spend all that money then why not do it right? And I also feel sometimes people are fooled by the +3db increase. Louder gives the impression of "better" sound. |
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Post by cwt on Jul 29, 2017 2:23:12 GMT -5
I wouldn't disagree or argue your point but with so many different pieces of gear there's no telling weather or not it helps. YMMV True Nick .Its interesting that many chose the xmc1 because of its "cut above" 2ch analog performance for a pre pro ; would it have this performance without its balanced input to output xlr's ? How many would forego this circuit duplication is the question I would ask ? Similarly oppo chose sabre dacs for the 105 when they could have settled for the cirrus logic used in the 103 ;they obviously put a lot of emphasis on the analog stage with balanced out ; just like emo  Just like the denon avp-a1hd Emo puts its best know how into its flagship - balanced input to output - and its at a price that when compared to trinnov.. On another subject ; Didn't someone once say that the anthem av60 was just the anthem receiver without the power amp in the same chassis ? Certainly not a built from the ground up device like the anthem d2v2; in fact a replacement for the anthem 50 not the d2v2 ? . Anyway I would never consider one because like many others its stuck with hdmi 2.0a ; and I want a device that has the potential for hdmi2.1 ; I prefer with HDR metadata being in such a flux that future hdr10 plus dynamic metadata be able to be passed.. and don't want another pre pro to do it |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jul 29, 2017 2:52:49 GMT -5
You guys are missing the point...the biggest benefit to balanced cables is that they don't fall off the cable lifters as easily.  Mark |
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Post by cwt on Jul 29, 2017 4:45:13 GMT -5
You guys are missing the point...the biggest benefit to balanced cables is that they don't fall off the cable lifters as easily. Mark I like the reassuring click |
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Post by mgbpuff on Jul 29, 2017 6:27:11 GMT -5
If you do not use the analog output of your Oppo, but use only the HMDI output, then the signal is not analog at all. Please, it is not snake oil; reserve that term for little discs stuck on your walls, or sub frequency generators, or crystals inserted here and there inside your components. Differential balanced circuitry lowers the noise floor in signal processing because it rejects noise - that's an electrical engineering fact, period, argument over. It is a better design and you are getting more for your money. Now if you live in the middle of a rain forest with nothing around you for a couple of hundred miles, you may not need to be so much worried about externally generated noise, unless the natives are restless. If you have sensitive speakers like Klipsh or other horns then if you turn the volume up you are likely to hear some very low level noise. Playing sounds overrides the noise so that it is audible only during silence or if you are seated a long distance away from the speakers. If you want to get rid of that, one sure fire way is to buy fully differential balanced equipment.
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Post by rbk123 on Jul 29, 2017 6:58:49 GMT -5
I'm not sure at this point what you think we're disagreeing on, as I never said it was better. I personally don't have a fully balanced home theater setup, so I couldn't give a subjective opinion one way or the other as to the gains if there are any. I actually wouldn't mind comparing the balanced to single ended back to balanced approach to the more expensive full balanced approach in a blind test, but until then I'll not call the pure signal integrity design of a full differentially balanced setup snake oil. It's not complicated. You're exact words were: I disagree that it is a "fact" that to gain any advantage it has to be fully balanced. An advantage means it is superior, as it sure as heck doesn't mean it's inferior since no one strives to gain an advantage to end up in a worse position. The only "fact" is that going to fully balanced results in a different, no matter how miniscule it is still different, setup. This new setup may be better, may be inaudible, or may be worse. It's a disagreement in semantics because your wording results in fully balanced can only be better - whether we hear it or not is the issue. That's like saying to gain an advantage you have to go to solid state amps and avoid tubes, because they measure so much better. In both examples the fact is they are different, but which one is superior is a matter of opinion. I'm not trying to be difficult but people have to be careful to distinguish between "facts" and "opinions". |
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Jul 29, 2017 7:39:53 GMT -5
I'm not sure at this point what you think we're disagreeing on, as I never said it was better. I personally don't have a fully balanced home theater setup, so I couldn't give a subjective opinion one way or the other as to the gains if there are any. I actually wouldn't mind comparing the balanced to single ended back to balanced approach to the more expensive full balanced approach in a blind test, but until then I'll not call the pure signal integrity design of a full differentially balanced setup snake oil. It's not complicated. You're exact words were: I disagree that it is a "fact" that to gain any advantage it has to be fully balanced. An advantage means it is superior, as it sure as heck doesn't mean it's inferior since no one strives to gain an advantage to end up in a worse position. The only "fact" is that going to fully balanced results in a different, no matter how miniscule it is still different, setup. This new setup may be better, may be inaudible, or may be worse. It's a disagreement in semantics because your wording results in fully balanced can only be better - whether we hear it or not is the issue. That's like saying to gain an advantage you have to go to solid state amps and avoid tubes, because they measure so much better. In both examples the fact is they are different, but which one is superior is a matter of opinion. I'm not trying to be difficult but people have to be careful to distinguish between "facts" and "opinions". Ok, you're right and I'm wrong subjectively.  Fact, a full differential balanced circuit design is superior to an unbalanced single ended circuit design in reducing interference from electromagnetic induction. |
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Jul 29, 2017 7:42:07 GMT -5
If you do not use the analog output of your Oppo, but use only the HMDI output, then the signal is not analog at all. Please, it is not snake oil; reserve that term for little discs stuck on your walls, or sub frequency generators, or crystals inserted here and there inside your components. Differential balanced circuitry lowers the noise floor in signal processing because it rejects noise - that's an electrical engineering fact, period, argument over. It is a better design and you are getting more for your money. Now if you live in the middle of a rain forest with nothing around you for a couple of hundred miles, you may not need to be so much worried about externally generated noise, unless the natives are restless. If you have sensitive speakers like Klipsh or other horns then if you turn the volume up you are likely to hear some very low level noise. Playing sounds overrides the noise so that it is audible only during silence or if you are seated a long distance away from the speakers. If you want to get rid of that, one sure fire way is to buy fully differential balanced equipment. Nicely stated! |
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Post by foggy1956 on Jul 29, 2017 7:42:54 GMT -5
If you do not use the analog output of your Oppo, but use only the HMDI output, then the signal is not analog at all. Please, it is not snake oil; reserve that term for little discs stuck on your walls, or sub frequency generators, or crystals inserted here and there inside your components. Differential balanced circuitry lowers the noise floor in signal processing because it rejects noise - that's an electrical engineering fact, period, argument over. It is a better design and you are getting more for your money. Now if you live in the middle of a rain forest with nothing around you for a couple of hundred miles, you may not need to be so much worried about externally generated noise, unless the natives are restless. If you have sensitive speakers like Klipsh or other horns then if you turn the volume up you are likely to hear some very low level noise. Playing sounds overrides the noise so that it is audible only during silence or if you are seated a long distance away from the speakers. If you want to get rid of that, one sure fire way is to buy fully differential balanced equipment. I believe my statement mentioned using the analog outs. |
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Post by mgbpuff on Jul 29, 2017 7:45:14 GMT -5
The most reliable repeatable things that we can do to improve our audiophile setups is to adhere to good scientific / engineering design. Ignore that at your own risk, but don't refute the principles they rest upon. Your subjective ideas sometimes in some limited applications to some one who is subject to subliminal suggestion, can defy all reason and please that specific person's sensibilities in some inexplicable way but this is not reliable or repeatable. Stick to science, it is your best bet.
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Post by foggy1956 on Jul 29, 2017 7:49:39 GMT -5
If you do not use the analog output of your Oppo, but use only the HMDI output, then the signal is not analog at all. Please, it is not snake oil; reserve that term for little discs stuck on your walls, or sub frequency generators, or crystals inserted here and there inside your components. Differential balanced circuitry lowers the noise floor in signal processing because it rejects noise - that's an electrical engineering fact, period, argument over. It is a better design and you are getting more for your money. Now if you live in the middle of a rain forest with nothing around you for a couple of hundred miles, you may not need to be so much worried about externally generated noise, unless the natives are restless. If you have sensitive speakers like Klipsh or other horns then if you turn the volume up you are likely to hear some very low level noise. Playing sounds overrides the noise so that it is audible only during silence or if you are seated a long distance away from the speakers. If you want to get rid of that, one sure fire way is to buy fully differential balanced equipment. Yep, I checked, I did state using the analog outputs. Perhaps you were just being condescending? |
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Jul 29, 2017 8:01:01 GMT -5
The most reliable repeatable things that we can do to improve our audiophile setups is to adhere to good scientific / engineering design. Ignore that at your own risk, but don't refute the principles they rest upon. Your subjective ideas sometimes in some limited applications to some one who is subject to subliminal suggestion, can defy all reason and please that specific person's sensibilities in some inexplicable way but this is not reliable or repeatable. Stick to science, it is your best bet. You are correct, theoretically the physics behind this design hasn't changed in my lifetime. I just think many times, monetarily, the significant increase in cost from single ended to a full differential balanced design is cost prohibitive to many, and as you stated earlier the small diminishing returns in many home theater setups just isn't worth it to those who aren't getting much more improvement in their particular situation. |
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Jul 29, 2017 8:07:34 GMT -5
If you do not use the analog output of your Oppo, but use only the HMDI output, then the signal is not analog at all. Please, it is not snake oil; reserve that term for little discs stuck on your walls, or sub frequency generators, or crystals inserted here and there inside your components. Differential balanced circuitry lowers the noise floor in signal processing because it rejects noise - that's an electrical engineering fact, period, argument over. It is a better design and you are getting more for your money. Now if you live in the middle of a rain forest with nothing around you for a couple of hundred miles, you may not need to be so much worried about externally generated noise, unless the natives are restless. If you have sensitive speakers like Klipsh or other horns then if you turn the volume up you are likely to hear some very low level noise. Playing sounds overrides the noise so that it is audible only during silence or if you are seated a long distance away from the speakers. If you want to get rid of that, one sure fire way is to buy fully differential balanced equipment. Yep, I checked, I did state using the analog outputs. Perhaps you were just being condescending? foggy, I'm not sure but I don't think he was specifically addressing you, but just talking in general. I could be wrong though and it won't be the first (the first time being with rbk, see my admitting this above ), nor will it be the last! |
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Post by foggy1956 on Jul 29, 2017 8:11:43 GMT -5
Yep, I checked, I did state using the analog outputs. Perhaps you were just being condescending? foggy, I'm not sure but I don't think he was specifically addressing you, but just talking in general. I could be wrong though and it won't be the first (the first time being with rbk, see my admitting this above ), nor will it be the last! If this is true why did he choose oppo, coincidence I'm sure? Regardless, it appears condescending. |
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Jul 29, 2017 8:26:13 GMT -5
foggy, I'm not sure but I don't think he was specifically addressing you, but just talking in general. I could be wrong though and it won't be the first (the first time being with rbk, see my admitting this above ), nor will it be the last! If this is true why did he choose oppo, coincidence I'm sure? Regardless, it appears condescending. Since Oppo blu-ray players are quite prevalent in setups here and they have both balanced & unbalanced designs, is why I think he used that. As for the "snake oil" comment, I'm pretty sure he was referring to the conversation between rbk123 and myself. |
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Post by mgbpuff on Jul 29, 2017 8:27:26 GMT -5
Foggy1956 - I was not being condescending to you, but let me answer you directly so there is no mistake of what I am saying to you specifically. You said "So my xmc-1 feeding my xpa-1l amps with balanced cables in reference stereo gains me nothing because I am feeding it an unbalanced analog signal from my oppo." My answer is - if there is any noise generated in your Oppo unbalanced output, and I am not saying there is, then the following fully balanced differential circuitry will not remove that noise, it will be treated as signal. On the other hand, the following fully balanced differential circuitry will not add any additional noise either. Now if you want to remove the possibility of transferring the Oppo's analog noise all the way through your system, then use the OPPO HDMI output. Actually though since thisthread is about the RMC-1 and not the XMC-1, I was talking about the RMC-1 which is fully balanced differential on ALL channels, which the XMC-1 is not.
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Post by mgbpuff on Jul 29, 2017 8:57:49 GMT -5
I know you were only talking stereo, please don't be offended!
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Post by rbk123 on Jul 29, 2017 14:08:10 GMT -5
Fact, a full differential balanced circuit design is superior to an unbalanced single ended circuit design in reducing interference from electromagnetic induction. Agree. Whether that ends up being a superior sound or not, is not only due to the reduced noise but the additional circuitry involved. However going fully balanced is no guarantee of superior sound. Some devices people say sound better unbalanced than balanced, so going unbalanced could end up with poorer performance. But when it comes to surround channels, the quality and amount of the information just isn't sufficient to be able to tell in any reliable matter, with other channels going on at the same time. Of course that latter isn't a fact, but my opinion.  |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jul 29, 2017 14:46:01 GMT -5
re: cost and if "it's worth it." In audio as in all things there is a point of diminishing returns, where the increase in cost does not equate to equivalent increases in quality/reliability/convenience/beauty/whatever criteria you wish to use as a guide. But that point is different for everyone, and it's different for different products/ideas/things. So acquire whatever you want that fits your means, and questions of "worth" are moot. If it fulfiulls your personal plans/desires/abilities/sense of value, then it is worth it to you. And if not, then it isn't. Simple.
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As I said in an earlier post, the small difference, if at all, probably won't make much of a difference in 99% of home theater setups.
Just like the denon avp-a1hd Emo puts its best know how into its flagship - balanced input to output - and its at a price that when compared to trinnov.. 
