|
|
Post by mgbpuff on Sept 21, 2017 7:16:01 GMT -5
My new Cary Audio Aios has the MQA label on the front panel, but I have no idea what level of unfolding I am getting. The manual doesn't explain much. I'll ask them and see if they answer.
|
|
KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,273
|
Post by KeithL on Sept 21, 2017 11:01:24 GMT -5
In theory, and DAC that does both steps of MQA decoding should be called "an MQA decoder" or "an MQA DAC".... While any that lacks the first unfold, and only does the second part, should be called "an MQA renderer".... That was "the official terminology" the last time I looked. I was also under the impression that the Meridian Explorer (at least the current version) is a full MQA decoder. Your second statement is not entirely correct. Any "full player software" that can do "the first unfold" should be able to do so with any MQA file, including an MQA CD. You could then play the resulting output on any normal DAC (first unfold only) or on any MQA renderer (which would do the second unfold). The Tidal client can't do it - because it only plays Tidal streams (so it simply doesn't play CDs). However, I would expect Audirvana to do it.... and the new version of Amarra is claimed to "be able to decode MQA" (they seem to be suggesting that it will do files as well as streams, but the details are somewhat vague there). I've got to comment here..... What I find especially annoying is that the whole subject of MQA seems to be continuing to get more complicated... Yet the proponents of MQA seem unable or unwilling to clarify it all by providing actual details... For example, if they want you to buy MQA CDs, then wouldn't it be in their best interest to tell you what you can play them on? Generally it's in the best interest of someone trying to sell something to actually explain WHY YOU WANT TO BUY IT - IN DETAIL. You could actually PAY for "an MQA DAC" and STILL not be able to figure out whether it will enable you to play that MQA CD or not. It's almost like they expect you to hand them money, go home with your MQA LOGO, and a big grin on your face, and then push the button to find out what you bought. (In fact, it's almost like they don't WANT you to understand the details, and are sort of hoping to turn all the "buzz" directly into cash.)  OK - Practical question: As I understand it, there are MQA "half-DACs" (like my AudioQuest Dragonfly Red and the Meridian Explorer, for example) that can RENDER MQA content (second "unfold"), but which need an upstream MQA DECODER (such as Tidal or Aurirvana 3+) to prepare the MQA content (first "unfold"). Then there are MQA "full-DACs" (such as the Mytek Brooklyn and the Meridian Ultra) that can both decode AND render. To play a MQA-encoded CD, for example with "full MQA," you'd need a MQA "full-DAC." Now to my question: What DACs on the market (other than the Mytek Brooklyn and the Meridian Ultra) are "full-MQA?" I see that NAD has models including their M51 and M12 that claim MQA compatibility, but it isn't clear from their specs whether or not they are "half" or "full" MQA devices. How does one tell? Thanks - Boomzilla |
|
DYohn
Emo VIPs 
Posts: 18,489
|
Post by DYohn on Sept 21, 2017 11:06:48 GMT -5
(In fact, it's almost like they don't WANT you to understand the details, and are sort of hoping to turn all the "buzz" directly into cash.) Ah, I see you understand their apparent business model.  |
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Sept 21, 2017 11:11:20 GMT -5
Thanks, Keith -
Terminology aside, my Audioquest Dragonfly Red will NEVER provide MQA output unless I'm streaming an MQA source through an MQA decoder - such as TIDAL, Audirvana, or Amarrah?
If that's the case, and assuming I download and install Audirvana / Amarrah and then play an MQA CD through those softwares, will my DAC then output MQA?
Your comments about the lack of clarity for MQA software, decoding, rendering, and sourcing are spot-on.
And now I have yet another question, if I may -
My Audioquest Dragonfly (plugged into a MacBook Pro, running OS X Sierra 10.12.6) is not recognized by the computer. It doesn't show up as a destination in either MIDI setup or Sound Setup. Because the Dragonfly isn't recognized, I can't configure it. But if it is plugged in, then it automatically becomes the default sound device, and outputs sound to the hi-fi system, although without any volume control (just like a full-volume-only DAC). I've tried swapping the Dragonfly from the USB-3 port to the USB-2 port - no difference - the device is still not recognized. I've also tried downloading, installing, and using the Audioquest Desktop Manager, but it doesn't see the DAC either. Any idea what's happening?
Thanks - Boomzilla
|
|
|
|
Post by monkumonku on Sept 21, 2017 11:11:55 GMT -5
(In fact, it's almost like they don't WANT you to understand the details, and are sort of hoping to turn all the "buzz" directly into cash.) Ah, I see you understand their apparent business model. The thing is, has anyone seen a clear, succinct explanation of MQA? As an example, someone posted in this thread earlier that he bought a processor that has MQA yet there was nothing about it in the instructions. My broken record time - still haven't seen anyone post a review in which they verify they did an A/B using the same source material and not compared one mix with another. And more needle skipping on the vinyl, still no understandable explanation of MQA, either, that is any better than an Audioquest blurb. |
|
DYohn
Emo VIPs
Posts: 18,489
|
Post by DYohn on Sept 21, 2017 11:18:05 GMT -5
MQA is this year's DIVX. It's a money-making scheme created by a clever corporation. It's the Dolby/DBX/THX model: create something that everyone will pay to include because consumers want the label on their gear even if they don't need it simply to say they use it. And it does NOT sound better than CDs, although it does often sound better than low bit-rate MP3. It's a decent lossy compassion scheme. But there are others that are equally good and they are in the public domain.
No one needs MQA, it's just a flavor of the day and a crass revenue generator.
|
|
|
|
Post by geebo on Sept 21, 2017 11:38:21 GMT -5
MQA is this year's DIVX. It's a money-making scheme created by a clever corporation. It's the Dolby/DBX/THX model: create something that everyone will pay to include because consumers want the label on their gear even if they don't need it simply to say they use it. And it does NOT sound better than CDs, although it does often sound better than low bit-rate MP3. It's a decent lossy compassion scheme. But there are others that are equally good and they are in the public domain. No one needs MQA, it's just a flavor of the day and a crass revenue generator. At this point I have to wholeheartedly agree. |
|
|
|
Post by monkumonku on Sept 21, 2017 11:47:11 GMT -5
MQA is this year's DIVX. It's a money-making scheme created by a clever corporation. It's the Dolby/DBX/THX model: create something that everyone will pay to include because consumers want the label on their gear even if they don't need it simply to say they use it. And it does NOT sound better than CDs, although it does often sound better than low bit-rate MP3. It's a decent lossy compassion scheme. But there are others that are equally good and they are in the public domain. No one needs MQA, it's just a flavor of the day and a crass revenue generator. People talk about how the major AVR manufacturers are jumping on the MQA bandwagon but that really says nothing about MQA itself. Like you said, it is just another badge to put on the gear because if Onkyo doesn't have that badge then consumers will flock to Yamaha because they have it - even though consumers have no idea what it is. They just think they are being smart shoppers by asking incisive questions such as "does this thing run THX-1138? If not I don't want it." |
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Sept 21, 2017 11:51:47 GMT -5
And OK - Now I'm REALLY confused.
I downloaded a 15-day "full trial" of Audirvana, expecting that it would perform DECODING of MQA content played back through it. Then the Dragonfly should be able to RENDER the decoded MQA signal and give me an MQA analog program output.
I tried both downloaded MQA content from 2L audio and a MQA-coded CD that Audirvana imported & played.
In every case, despite having MQA source material AND the MQA-DAC, Audirvana failed to decode in such a way that the DAC could use it. The green light on the DAC indicated that it was outputting 44.1 blue-book CD quality audio WITHOUT MQA. WTF?
What's the purpose of HAVING an MQA-capable player software if it won't DECODE MQA?
Are my expectations unrealistic? I'm not about to cough up another hundred bucks for a software that does absolutely nothing that it claims. Why is Audirvana failing to decode what is clearly MQA content?
Boom
|
|
DYohn
Emo VIPs
Posts: 18,489
|
Post by DYohn on Sept 21, 2017 12:41:08 GMT -5
I have no idea how the Dragonfly works mainly because I tried one and thought it didn't sound good. So maybe contact Audioquest?
|
|
|
|
Post by garbulky on Sept 21, 2017 12:45:41 GMT -5
And OK - Now I'm REALLY confused. I downloaded a 15-day "full trial" of Audirvana, expecting that it would perform DECODING of MQA content played back through it. Then the Dragonfly should be able to RENDER the decoded MQA signal and give me an MQA analog program output. I tried both downloaded MQA content from 2L audio and a MQA-coded CD that Audirvana imported & played. In every case, despite having MQA source material AND the MQA-DAC, Audirvana failed to decode in such a way that the DAC could use it. The green light on the DAC indicated that it was outputting 44.1 blue-book CD quality audio WITHOUT MQA. WTF? What's the purpose of HAVING an MQA-capable player software if it won't DECODE MQA? Are my expectations unrealistic? I'm not about to cough up another hundred bucks for a software that does absolutely nothing that it claims. Why is Audirvana failing to decode what is clearly MQA content? Boom I mentioned this in our PM. Have you had a chance to read it? You have to have audirvana plus 3Likely this is the paid version. Read page 34 of the manual. It may need additional settings configured. audirvana.com/delivery/Audirvana%20Plus%20User%20Manual.pdf |
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,273
|
Post by KeithL on Sept 21, 2017 13:20:21 GMT -5
Yes; an "MQA renderer" like the Dragonfly Red will ONLY do "the second unfold" if something else has already done "the first unfold". (This means that, if you're using something like Tidal, you DO want the Tidal client to do the first decode, you do NOT want it to pass the signal straight through to the DAC without decoding it.) And, yes, at the moment that means using the Tidal desktop client or Audirvana with your Dragonfly if you want MQA. As far as I can tell, Amarra may not do MQA yet. They say they CURRENTLY have "Tidal integration" but that "Tidal Masters is coming soon" - which would mean that MQA is not there yet. They also list "support for MQA files" as "coming soon".... What's going on with your Dragonfly and your computer is just plain weird. Apple computers already have both UAC1 and UAC2 drivers built in.... so any DAC should simply be recognized. If the Dragonfly becomes your default sound device, and it works when you plug it in, then it IS being recognized (otherwise it wouldn't work). What seems to be happening is that, even though the computer recognizes it, you are not being offered all of the control options you expect. As I recall, the Dragonfly has a built-in ladder network volume control - which would be its "preferred" method of volume control. I assume the Dragonfly is "telling" your computer to disable the software volume control "because it has its own volume control". There's a fair chance this is related to the particular player software you're using. For example, jRiver on the PC has three different volume control options, one of which uses system software volume, and one of which accesses the internal volume control in our Ego DACs. If you're using Tidal here, then you need to know that Tidal has other options of its own (under Streaming). Some of those options have rather different results than I would have expected. (Try Googling for what setting other Mac users use with their Dragonflies  .) Thanks, Keith - Terminology aside, my Audioquest Dragonfly Red will NEVER provide MQA output unless I'm streaming an MQA source through an MQA decoder - such as TIDAL, Audirvana, or Amarrah? If that's the case, and assuming I download and install Audirvana / Amarrah and then play an MQA CD through those softwares, will my DAC then output MQA? Your comments about the lack of clarity for MQA software, decoding, rendering, and sourcing are spot-on. And now I have yet another question, if I may - My Audioquest Dragonfly (plugged into a MacBook Pro, running OS X Sierra 10.12.6) is not recognized by the computer. It doesn't show up as a destination in either MIDI setup or Sound Setup. Because the Dragonfly isn't recognized, I can't configure it. But if it is plugged in, then it automatically becomes the default sound device, and outputs sound to the hi-fi system, although without any volume control (just like a full-volume-only DAC). I've tried swapping the Dragonfly from the USB-3 port to the USB-2 port - no difference - the device is still not recognized. I've also tried downloading, installing, and using the Audioquest Desktop Manager, but it doesn't see the DAC either. Any idea what's happening? Thanks - Boomzilla |
|
|
|
Post by Loop 7 on Sept 21, 2017 13:31:32 GMT -5
I heard the CEO of PS Audio remark that MQA wanted too much access to their DACs for the MQA implementation so they ended up creating an MQA solution outside the DAC.
|
|
|
|
Post by qdtjni on Sept 21, 2017 13:51:12 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by Loop 7 on Sept 21, 2017 14:40:13 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by mgbpuff on Sept 21, 2017 17:03:18 GMT -5
Well I asked Cary Audio what level of MQA unfolding does the AIOS deliver. Wow, talk about high sampling rates! The answer they gave -
"The AiOS provides full decoding of MQA to achieve the full benefit of MQA encoding and decoding. The AiOS has full MQA certified decoding. Unlike other MQA products to date, AiOS will playback any MQA sample rate up to 16x. This means despite the original sample rate of the MQA file, the MQA decoder will extrapolate the file to either a 705.6 or 768 kHz sampling rate for stunning realism and studio quality sound.
To add, MQA’s current limit natively is up to 384kHz and can be streamed via TIDAL. AiOS can easily handle that whereas many other products limit is 192kHz. Some can handle 384kHz. Ultimately, MQA would like to offer material natively up to 768kHz which AiOS is already setup to handle. As Dan points out, all MQA content whether natively 44.1 or up to 384kHz will automatically be rendered (upsampled) to 768kHz with AiOS and the DMS-500. MQA designed our MQA decoder to do this using MQA’s custom algorithms for 768kHz rendering because our digital ecosystem is already capable of handling such high rates!"
|
|
|
|
Post by monkumonku on Sept 21, 2017 17:12:15 GMT -5
Well I asked Cary Audio what level of MQA unfolding does the AIOS deliver. Wow, talk about high sampling rates! The answer they gave - "The AiOS provides full decoding of MQA to achieve the full benefit of MQA encoding and decoding. The AiOS has full MQA certified decoding. Unlike other MQA products to date, AiOS will playback any MQA sample rate up to 16x. This means despite the original sample rate of the MQA file, the MQA decoder will extrapolate the file to either a 705.6 or 768 kHz sampling rate for stunning realism and studio quality sound. To add, MQA’s current limit natively is up to 384kHz and can be streamed via TIDAL. AiOS can easily handle that whereas many other products limit is 192kHz. Some can handle 384kHz. Ultimately, MQA would like to offer material natively up to 768kHz which AiOS is already setup to handle. As Dan points out, all MQA content whether natively 44.1 or up to 384kHz will automatically be rendered (upsampled) to 768kHz with AiOS and the DMS-500. MQA designed our MQA decoder to do this using MQA’s custom algorithms for 768kHz rendering because our digital ecosystem is already capable of handling such high rates!" Okay, can you please explain that in simpler terms? Practically speaking, what does what you quoted mean? Does upsampling and extrapolating actually improve anything if you are starting with a file that has a much lower sampling rate? |
|
|
|
Post by mgbpuff on Sept 21, 2017 17:24:52 GMT -5
Well I asked Cary Audio what level of MQA unfolding does the AIOS deliver. Wow, talk about high sampling rates! The answer they gave - "The AiOS provides full decoding of MQA to achieve the full benefit of MQA encoding and decoding. The AiOS has full MQA certified decoding. Unlike other MQA products to date, AiOS will playback any MQA sample rate up to 16x. This means despite the original sample rate of the MQA file, the MQA decoder will extrapolate the file to either a 705.6 or 768 kHz sampling rate for stunning realism and studio quality sound. To add, MQA’s current limit natively is up to 384kHz and can be streamed via TIDAL. AiOS can easily handle that whereas many other products limit is 192kHz. Some can handle 384kHz. Ultimately, MQA would like to offer material natively up to 768kHz which AiOS is already setup to handle. As Dan points out, all MQA content whether natively 44.1 or up to 384kHz will automatically be rendered (upsampled) to 768kHz with AiOS and the DMS-500. MQA designed our MQA decoder to do this using MQA’s custom algorithms for 768kHz rendering because our digital ecosystem is already capable of handling such high rates!" Okay, can you please explain that in simpler terms? Practically speaking, what does what you quoted mean? Does upsampling and extrapolating actually improve anything if you are starting with a file that has a much lower sampling rate? I was hoping one of you could explain it better! Basically a MQA file is upsampled by a factor of 16 to a max of 768khz. I have no idea what you are actually getting with such a high sampling rate. Maybe you need that kind of sample rate to do the so called third unfold. I really have no idea! |
|
|
|
Post by monkumonku on Sept 21, 2017 17:34:32 GMT -5
Okay, can you please explain that in simpler terms? Practically speaking, what does what you quoted mean? Does upsampling and extrapolating actually improve anything if you are starting with a file that has a much lower sampling rate? I was hoping one of you could explain it better! Basically a MQA file is upsampled by a factor of 16 to a max of 768khz. I have no idea what you are actually getting with such a high sampling rate. Maybe you need that kind of sample rate to do the so called third unfold. I really have no idea! Well that's my point... that's kind of how this whole entire MQA thing is - a bunch of words but what does it all mean?  That's like if I start out with red, green and blue and then I take that and mix it in with 1,000,000 different colors and then do a filter to remove all of them except for red, green and blue. So how does that make the red, green and blue any better? |
|
|
|
Post by mgbpuff on Sept 21, 2017 18:54:39 GMT -5
I think that MQA hides information about the probable dynamic range and perhaps even higher frequency structure of reality vs the base recording medium capabilities, say a certain type of tape for instance. To recover with this additional information added in, MQA must expand the original 44.1khz file to a 96khz file containing new information and then expand that to 192khz to satisfy Niquist rules for errorless playback for the corrected file. Another fold due to other real world vs recording limitation may be added on top of this expanding the 192khz fill to 768khz. The improving information is hidden in the lowest bit or 2 of each word that is never heard when the file is played on a non MQA device because it is below the latent noise level. I'm trying to guess in terms we can easier understand because the MQA explanations written by Stuart are extremely complex. I think this guy is a true genius!
|
|
.)
