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Post by frenchyfranky on Jan 18, 2017 1:47:07 GMT -5
Hi KeithLAs the title says, how many joules do we need in a surge protector for big power amp like my XPA-1? What is the minimum to be really effective? 600, 900, 1500, 3000, over? Recently the big transformator of the power distribution company has started to be defective when outside gusty winds and raining or frozen rain, it probably Short circuit for some reason , it is looking very rusty and probably no more sealed, so current sporadically flashing fast for a few seconds and reappear stable until the next few hours or days depending on the weather. Many house owner as myself in the sector had called the electricity company to complain about the situation, they're supposed to fix it as soon as possible, but I suspect they're waiting for a definitive power failure. During this time I am very concerned about my equipment, last time it happened my two XPA-1 were flashing their all led blue and red like a Christmas tree, happily I was there and saw that and rapidly disconnected my amps from the wall outlet. When the current has stabilized I reconnected and check for malfunction and everything was OK, but since that I removed again the plugs definitely until they definitely repair the power distribution. Can I use a power surge protector if I want to listen my system between the time they fix the problem, because it could be long? |
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Post by Priapulus on Jan 18, 2017 9:38:59 GMT -5
Arcing utility equipment is the sort of problem that surge protectors are needed for. Remember that surge protectors are sacrificial, like a fuse; they give their lives to save your gear.
*******************************************
I have a whole house surge protector on my breaker panel.
<https://www.amazon.ca/EATON-CHSPT2MAX-Standard-Surge-Protector/dp/B00VWGY3YK/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1484748981&sr=8-5&keywords=whole+house+surge+protector>
I have a dedicated breaker and feed line to my AV gear.
Finally, I have a Panamax power bar, that all my AV gear (except the power amplifiers) plug into. It forms a second layer of protection.
My power amplifiers plug ~directly~ into the dedicated wall outlet, as KeithL has said
1) the power amps have internal protection,
2) the heavy transformer inside my older (non-smps) amps provide additional protection, and
3) some surge protectors can impede performance by limiting power surges demanded by the amp for music dynamics.
*************************************
*** That said, when you're under attack by the utility transformers, I'd use a surge protector anyway. ***
(When in doubt, wear the condom!)
The number of juoles doesn't relate to how much equipment you have. It relates to how big a surge you want to suppress. I wouldn't worry about joules, just buy any good brand; a $40 Panamax will be fine.
Power filters/conditioners are a waste of money.
Sincerely
/blair
p.s. Surge protectors are not Lightning Arrestors. That is what Firemen and Insurance is for...
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Post by bluemeanies on Jan 18, 2017 10:23:08 GMT -5
Arcing utility equipment is the sort of problem that surge protectors are needed for. Remember that surge protectors are sacrificial, like a fuse; they give their lives to save your gear. ******************************************* I have a whole house surge protector on my breaker panel. <https://www.amazon.ca/EATON-CHSPT2MAX-Standard-Surge-Protector/dp/B00VWGY3YK/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1484748981&sr=8-5&keywords=whole+house+surge+protector> I have a dedicated breaker and feed line to my AV gear. Finally, I have a Panamax power bar, that all my AV gear (except the power amplifiers) plug into. It forms a second layer of protection. My power amplifiers plug ~directly~ into the dedicated wall outlet, as KeithL has said 1) the power amps have internal protection, 2) the heavy transformer inside my older (non-smps) amps provide additional protection, and 3) some surge protectors can impede performance by limiting power surges demanded by the amp for music dynamics. ************************************* *** That said, when you're under attack by the utility transformers, I'd use a surge protector anyway. *** (When in doubt, wear the condom!) The number of juoles doesn't relate to how much equipment you have. It relates to how big a surge you want to suppress. I wouldn't worry about joules, just buy any good brand; a $40 Panamax will be fine. Power filters/conditioners are a waste of money. Sincerely /blair p.s. Surge protectors are not Lightning Arrestors. That is what Firemen and Insurance is for... A surge fault line interruptor with manual reset is the added protection that I recommend. My solids state amplifier is connected to my wall outlets. My dedicated room for HT & 2channel listening room have there own circuit breakers with a ground rod 6' deep. Also I have a FURMAN ELITE line conditioner. All of the above and I still had a surge that affected my Grace m920 pre. I invested in two surge fault line interruptors with manual reset costing $26.00 each both having 3outlets. There are single outlets available with manual reset and cost about $13.00. Never say never. I have had my dedicated room since 2001 and never had a problem until the end of 2016. If you want real protection I highly recommend the fault line interruptor. A dedicated breaker and feed line, and the Panamax power bar is not protection. Having dedicated breakers and feed have nothing to do with protection. |
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Post by Priapulus on Jan 18, 2017 11:12:55 GMT -5
>A surge fault line interruptor with manual reset is the added protection that I recommend."
I'm not sure what you mean, are you talking about a GFI, ground fault interrupter? A tripped GFI would indicate a problem, but I'm not sure what that would have to do with surge protection.
> Having dedicated breakers and feed have nothing to do with protection.
True, unless you are sharing that line with an air conditioner, motor or other electrically noisy equipment.
As I said: "just buy any good brand; a $40 Panamax will be fine."
Sincerely
/b
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Post by frenchyfranky on Jan 18, 2017 11:18:09 GMT -5
Arcing utility equipment is the sort of problem that surge protectors are needed for. Remember that surge protectors are sacrificial, like a fuse; they give their lives to save your gear. ******************************************* I have a whole house surge protector on my breaker panel. <https://www.amazon.ca/EATON-CHSPT2MAX-Standard-Surge-Protector/dp/B00VWGY3YK/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1484748981&sr=8-5&keywords=whole+house+surge+protector> I have a dedicated breaker and feed line to my AV gear. Finally, I have a Panamax power bar, that all my AV gear (except the power amplifiers) plug into. It forms a second layer of protection. My power amplifiers plug ~directly~ into the dedicated wall outlet, as KeithL has said 1) the power amps have internal protection, 2) the heavy transformer inside my older (non-smps) amps provide additional protection, and 3) some surge protectors can impede performance by limiting power surges demanded by the amp for music dynamics. ************************************* *** That said, when you're under attack by the utility transformers, I'd use a surge protector anyway. *** (When in doubt, wear the condom!) The number of juoles doesn't relate to how much equipment you have. It relates to how big a surge you want to suppress. I wouldn't worry about joules, just buy any good brand; a $40 Panamax will be fine. Power filters/conditioners are a waste of money. Sincerely /blair p.s. Surge protectors are not Lightning Arrestors. That is what Firemen and Insurance is for... A surge fault line interruptor with manual reset is the added protection that I recommend. My solids state amplifier is connected to my wall outlets. My dedicated room for HT & 2channel listening room have there own circuit breakers with a ground rod 6' deep. Also I have a FURMAN ELITE line conditioner. All of the above and I still had a surge that affected my Grace m920 pre. I invested in two surge fault line interruptors with manual reset costing $26.00 each both having 3outlets. There are single outlets available with manual reset and cost about $13.00. Never say never. I have had my dedicated room since 2001 and never had a problem until the end of 2016. If you want real protection I highly recommend the fault line interruptor. A dedicated breaker and feed line, and the Panamax power bar is not protection. Having dedicated breakers and feed have nothing to do with protection. Can you please give me the link to find them. |
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KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,261
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Post by KeithL on Jan 18, 2017 11:35:39 GMT -5
I tend to agree with the other comments here..... I would want a surge suppressor in that situation in case you get actual surges.
However, I would note that short power dropouts will trip your amps into protect, but won't actually do any damage.
Note that short dropouts MAY damage things with compressors, like a refrigerator.
Also note that a surge suppressor will NOT prevent dropouts from annoying your equipment.
I would also suggest two things:
1)
Make sure the power company understands that there's arcing going on. That constitutes a fire hazard, and should encourage them to fix it quickly.
2)
I would consider documenting it (take a few pictures when it's acting up). In general your power company is liable for any equipment they damage if it's obviously their fault.
(That includes audio equipment as well as stuff like refrigerators and air conditioners).
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Post by frenchyfranky on Jan 18, 2017 11:52:07 GMT -5
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Post by Priapulus on Jan 18, 2017 13:09:05 GMT -5
A sacrificial surge protector, one for each device I want to protect. Actually, if the equipment is located together, it is better to have one surge protector and a power bar; or combo unit. This is so everything is grounded to the same point. Much surge damage is caused by ground loops propagating the surge thru your gear; a common ground stops this. As a bonus, it will also eliminate many hums. For the same reason, if you have CATV, the coax should also be routed thru your surge protector. (They are available with CATV connections). Sincerely /blair |
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Post by bluemeanies on Jan 18, 2017 13:13:43 GMT -5
I purchased mine at the Home Depot and I am sure Lowes would also carry them. If you GOOGLE, "surge fault line interruptor with manual reset" and then go to images you will get a good idea as to what they look like... The best price for me was at HD. The one you have in the Amazon website is a matter of choice however I feel the ones at the depot are better built and has MANUAL RESET which is important. |
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Post by westom on Jan 18, 2017 19:01:36 GMT -5
A sacrificial surge protector, one for each device I want to protect. First eliminate propaganda posted without numbers. No numbers is a first indication of education only from hearsay, advertising, and speculation. Shorting means 120 volts is dropping - reduced - approaching zero. Surge protector ignores everything until voltage well exceeds 330 volts. Surge protector does nothing for shorted (reduced) voltage. Those numbers were not posted because a surge (according to advertising) is every anomaly. That sells protector with massive profit margins and near zero protection. Potentially destructive surges can be hundreds of thousands of joules. How many joules does that near zero protector absorb? 300 joules and not more than 600 joules. Being near zero, it will self destructive on surgs too tiny to overwhelm protection that is already inside all appliances. If a surge is incoming to that protector, then a same electrical current is, at the exact same time, also outgoing into attached appliances. That current easily destroys a near zero protector (to promote more sales). That same current is converted by electronics into rock stable, low DC voltages to safely power its semiconductors. Best protection at appliances is already inside appliances. Sacrificial protectors are how naive consumers (people who routinely ignore numbers) get scammed. Effective protectors do not fail. Two completely different anomalies are discussed as if one. That short circuiting at a transformer (and resulting lower voltage) might trigger a safely lockout in some appliances. Because voltage is repeatedly dropping towards zero and then recovering. Second anomaly is surges. Destructive surges can be hundreds of thousands of joules. Informed consumers (who know because they always read spec numbers) properly earth one 'whole house' protector. When that electric current connects to earth without entering a building, then superior protection already inside all appliances is not overwhelmed. What most needs this solution (proven and implemented even over 100 years ago)? Those near zero plug-in (sacrificial) protectors that can and have created house fires. Got your attention yet? Read specification numbers yet? Long before asking for a solution, first an anomaly must be defined. You did not define a surge (well over 300 volt transients). You defined an unstable and repeatedly dropping voltage. An anomaly may trigger a safety lockout function in some 'at risk' appliances. An anomaly completely ignored by all protectors - both near zero plug-in and effective 'whole house' type. How many recommended without first learning above numbers? Indeed, a damning question. |
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Post by frenchyfranky on Jan 18, 2017 21:59:10 GMT -5
A sacrificial surge protector, one for each device I want to protect. First eliminate propaganda posted without numbers. No numbers is a first indication of education only from hearsay, advertising, and speculation. Shorting means 120 volts is dropping - reduced - approaching zero. Surge protector ignores everything until voltage well exceeds 330 volts. Surge protector does nothing for shorted (reduced) voltage. Those numbers were not posted because a surge (according to advertising) is every anomaly. That sells protector with massive profit margins and near zero protection. Potentially destructive surges can be hundreds of thousands of joules. How many joules does that near zero protector absorb? 300 joules and not more than 600 joules. Being near zero, it will self destructive on surgs too tiny to overwhelm protection that is already inside all appliances. If a surge is incoming to that protector, then a same electrical current is, at the exact same time, also outgoing into attached appliances. That current easily destroys a near zero protector (to promote more sales). That same current is converted by electronics into rock stable, low DC voltages to safely power its semiconductors. Best protection at appliances is already inside appliances. Sacrificial protectors are how naive consumers (people who routinely ignore numbers) get scammed. Effective protectors do not fail. Two completely different anomalies are discussed as if one. That short circuiting at a transformer (and resulting lower voltage) might trigger a safely lockout in some appliances. Because voltage is repeatedly dropping towards zero and then recovering. Second anomaly is surges. Destructive surges can be hundreds of thousands of joules. Informed consumers (who know because they always read spec numbers) properly earth one 'whole house' protector. When that electric current connects to earth without entering a building, then superior protection already inside all appliances is not overwhelmed. What most needs this solution (proven and implemented even over 100 years ago)? Those near zero plug-in (sacrificial) protectors that can and have created house fires. Got your attention yet? Read specification numbers yet? Long before asking for a solution, first an anomaly must be defined. You did not define a surge (well over 300 volt transients). You defined an unstable and repeatedly dropping voltage. An anomaly may trigger a safety lockout function in some 'at risk' appliances. An anomaly completely ignored by all protectors - both near zero plug-in and effective 'whole house' type. How many recommended without first learning above numbers? Indeed, a damning question. Wow, Thanks for opened my lights, your explanations are very logical. |
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Post by vneal on Jan 19, 2017 2:31:42 GMT -5
I tend to agree with the other comments here..... I would want a surge suppressor in that situation in case you get actual surges. However, I would note that short power dropouts will trip your amps into protect, but won't actually do any damage. Note that short dropouts MAY damage things with compressors, like a refrigerator. Also note that a surge suppressor will NOT prevent dropouts from annoying your equipment. I would also suggest two things: 1) Make sure the power company understands that there's arcing going on. That constitutes a fire hazard, and should encourage them to fix it quickly. 2) I would consider documenting it (take a few pictures when it's acting up). In general your power company is liable for any equipment they damage if it's obviously their fault. (That includes audio equipment as well as stuff like refrigerators and air conditioners). Good points. I think you have a better chance of winning the lottery than proving an electric provider liable. |
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Post by bluemeanies on Jan 19, 2017 9:00:44 GMT -5
I tend to agree with the other comments here..... I would want a surge suppressor in that situation in case you get actual surges. However, I would note that short power dropouts will trip your amps into protect, but won't actually do any damage. Note that short dropouts MAY damage things with compressors, like a refrigerator. Also note that a surge suppressor will NOT prevent dropouts from annoying your equipment. I would also suggest two things: 1) Make sure the power company understands that there's arcing going on. That constitutes a fire hazard, and should encourage them to fix it quickly. 2) I would consider documenting it (take a few pictures when it's acting up). In general your power company is liable for any equipment they damage if it's obviously their fault. (That includes audio equipment as well as stuff like refrigerators and air conditioners). Good points. I think you have a better chance of winning the lottery than proving an electric provider liable. While Keith's point about the electric company is logical you will in likely hood get no where with them nor will they have an understanding or empathy for your problem. My voltage line into my house varies from as low as 115 to as high as 127. Having tubes that fluctuation is a no-no. It is a big variance. That is the reason prior to purchasing "surge line fault interruptors" I purchased a VARIAC and a Kill-a-Watt. This enables me to control the volt coming into the house....at least for my dedicated room. Calling PECO which is the electric supplier in my area did absolutely nothing. I was told b/c I am a short distance between two major draws of electricity (Boeing & Philadelphia International Airport) the regulation of power is based primarily on their needs and nor residential. Having the VARIAC and the Kill a Watt may seem like over Kill to some people but both were inexpensive and I have piece of mine. Variac via e-bay $100.00 Kill-a-Watt via e-bay $33.00 Piece of mine..PRICELESS |
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,261
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Post by KeithL on Jan 19, 2017 11:23:36 GMT -5
It's not a matter of empathy...... In most areas, because of the fire hazard, if there's a piece of power company equipment actively arcing, they'll respond pretty quickly. (Unless, of course, they already know what's going on, and consider it to be harmless.... like branches bumping a line and getting zapped.) The thing you need to realize is that AC power is EXPECTED to vary.... although there are lots of standards (none of which are absolute). By one common standard, if you have "nominal 120 VAC", anything between 114 V and 126 V is considered "perfectly normal for long term" (that's +/- 5%). By that standard, any variation that stays between 104 V and 127 V (that's +6% / -10%) is considered to be OK for "short term variation". (They're supposed to correct it if it remains at those levels for too long.... but there's no specific time limit.) Another standard suggests that "consumer electrical equipment should operate safely" anywhere between +/- 10% of nominal. All of our equipment will run just fine over that range. I would also suggest that well-designed tube equipment shouldn't have much trouble with it either. It's easy enough to regulate the filament voltages if your tubes are that fussy. Likewise, plate voltage and bias can either be regulated, or you can use circuits that "self adjust". (Back when tubes were "current technology" line voltage varied much more widely even than it does now.) If you've got major occasional variations I would consider a line voltage regulator.... Or simply a protector that shuts off the power if it gets too far out of range. Good points. I think you have a better chance of winning the lottery than proving an electric provider liable. While Keith's point about the electric company is logical you will in likely hood get no where with them nor will they have an understanding or empathy for your problem. My voltage line into my house varies from as low as 115 to as high as 127. Having tubes that fluctuation is a no-no. It is a big variance. That is the reason prior to purchasing "surge line fault interruptors" I purchased a VARIAC and a Kill-a-Watt. This enables me to control the volt coming into the house....at least for my dedicated room. Calling PECO which is the electric supplier in my area did absolutely nothing. I was told b/c I am a short distance between two major draws of electricity (Boeing & Philadelphia International Airport) the regulation of power is based primarily on their needs and nor residential. Having the VARIAC and the Kill a Watt may seem like over Kill to some people but both were inexpensive and I have piece of mine. Variac via e-bay $100.00 Kill-a-Watt via e-bay $33.00 Piece of mine..PRICELESS |
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Jan 19, 2017 11:27:29 GMT -5
If what you say was transformer arcing.... which would usually mean green or blue sparks.... they're normally pretty responsive. However, if we're talking about sparking and orange embers (like when a tree branch touches the wire and burns) it's not going to be considered to be much of a problem. This will often happen if damp branches touch a wire... and it's sort of self-correcting  (The power company isn't going to worry much about it unless the embers are falling somewhere they're likely to start a fire or land on someone's head). If that's the case, try and get in contact with the "tree trimming department" at your power company. (At least around here, they are actually quite responsive.... ) |
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Post by Priapulus on Jan 20, 2017 8:33:29 GMT -5
> Effective protectors do not fail.
Fuses don't blow?
There are some people don't like surge protectors. And there are people who refuse to wear seat belts or condoms. But they work and are very effective at what they do. A simple Google search will provide a wealth of information.
An arcing fault, especially connected with an inductor like a transformer, is a generator of a spectrum of impulses and noise. It's this kind of harmful trash on the line that surge protectors excel at cleaning up. The earliest radio transmitters used spark gaps to generate their signal.
As for fear mongering that a Surge Protector will burn your house down, if it has UA or CSA certification (which is required by law in civilized countries like Canada) you have no fear of fire.
Sincerely
/b
p.s. Virtually all flat screen (television) power supplies, (and other expensive consumer goods) have metal oxide varistors on the input of their power supplies, to protect them. The varistor is the active component of a surge protector. Apparently Sony, LG, and all the other manufacturers think they work...
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emovac
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Post by emovac on Jan 21, 2017 15:51:16 GMT -5
The Kill a Watt is a good idea to see what the line voltage in is. I live in SOCal, and a SOCal Edison switching station in my neighborhood had a bad part in it causing high voltage delivery (up to 135 volts) when the neighborhood load dropped. Basically the reverse from a surge, but no correction to drop the voltage when multiple air conditioners were cycled off, etc. The switching station wouldn't drop back to 120, but stayed at 135 volts. A part that was designed to reset the voltage downward when load demand dropped failed, and created high voltages to the entire neighborhood. SCE initially denied the problem until I sent them a picture of 135.5 volts on my Belkin PF60 power center. I also had several readings in the low 130s. A SCE engineer came to my house to check out my electric panel, to make sure the problem was not local to my house (bad neutral, or something producing energy since I have solar PV), They checked out my house electrical, and once every checked correct, the engineer figured I was on to something.
I gave him the times of day, and night, and they had an engineer research it. Yep, bad part in the Edison substation switching center. Short story long, unexpected problems can happen with electricity. The more info you have at your disposal to evaluate the better off you are.
Currently, I use PS Audio P5, and APC H15s for voltage control. High voltage to sensitive electronics is not a good thing.
Surge protectors can save your equipment. They do have the potential to overheat and destroy themselves. I've lost one in forty years. A Radio Shack multi-outlet job for an old PC smoked itself in the 80s. PC survived, not the surge protector. Heck, dust might have shorted it out as far as I know. Not 100 percent sure if it crapped out, or did its job as designed.
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Post by westom on Jan 22, 2017 5:14:57 GMT -5
As for fear mongering that a Surge Protector will burn your house down, if it has UA or CSA certification (which is required by law in civilized countries like Canada) you have no fear of fire. APC protectors - all UL and CSA listed - created many fires. So APC (and the Consumer Product Safety Commission) said some 15 million protectors must be removed immediately. Somehow reality is fear mongering? "Schneider Electric Recalls APC Surge Protectors Due to Fire Hazard" www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/2014/Schneider-Electric-Recalls-APC-Surge-Protectors/UL listed, plug-in protectors (not used in conjunction with 'whole house' protection) can create and have created this human safety issue. Second, surge protectors do nothing for 135 volts on 120 volt service. Plug-in protectors do nothing until its let-through voltages is exceeded (ie 330 volts). Discussing overvoltage as if it was a surge is, at minimum, misleading. Surge protectors do nothing for high voltages. High voltages are irrelevant in a discussion of surge protectors. Two misconceptions discussed. |
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Post by vneal on Jan 22, 2017 7:25:37 GMT -5
Well I am rest assured that everyone who posted above me is a electrical engineer
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Post by frenchyfranky on Jan 22, 2017 10:29:14 GMT -5
As for fear mongering that a Surge Protector will burn your house down, if it has UA or CSA certification (which is required by law in civilized countries like Canada) you have no fear of fire. APC protectors - all UL and CSA listed - created many fires. So APC (and the Consumer Product Safety Commission) said some 15 million protectors must be removed immediately. Somehow reality is fear mongering? "Schneider Electric Recalls APC Surge Protectors Due to Fire Hazard" www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/2014/Schneider-Electric-Recalls-APC-Surge-Protectors/UL listed, plug-in protectors (not used in conjunction with 'whole house' protection) can create and have created this human safety issue. Second, surge protectors do nothing for 135 volts on 120 volt service. Plug-in protectors do nothing until its let-through voltages is exceeded (ie 330 volts). Discussing overvoltage as if it was a surge is, at minimum, misleading. Surge protectors do nothing for high voltages. High voltages are irrelevant in a discussion of surge protectors. Two misconceptions discussed. The electricity company (Hydro Quebec) asked me first to call a master electrician at my home to inspect and confirm that the problem doesn't come from my home electrical installation, if nothing wrong is find at my home that will proofs the problem comes from us and they'll take the electrician billing at their own charges. As they asked, I has called a master electrician and he found absolutely nothing wrong in my house electrical installation, he sent his inspection report to the electricity company and a ticket has been raised. One of their inspectors will come to verifying the distribution network, guess when he will come?..... Before June 1st 2017..... WOW..... A was completely knock out.  I'm now dreaming of the day like in "back to the future" we will put a few trash and a banana peel in a reactor to create anough energy for the whole week, to be completely independent of this actual energy monopoly. |
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