|
|
Post by westom on Jan 22, 2017 12:23:45 GMT -5
As they asked, I has called a master electrician and he found absolutely nothing wrong in my house electrical installation, While he was there, better would have been installing 'whole house'protection. Destructive surges can be hundreds of thousands of joules. When a potentially destructive surge occurs (maybe in six months when a lineman makes a mistake), a transient connects to earth without entering the building. Then superior protection already inside all appliances is not overwhelmed. Your phone and cable already have effective protection installed for free. But effective protection on AC mains only exists if you or your electrician installs it. Or if you rent one from Hydro. Protection (properly earthed) for AC mains only exists if you want it. Current events can be an excuse to install effective protection - that typically costs about $1 per protected appliance. |
|
emovac
Emo VIPs 
Saeed al-Sahhaf
Posts: 2,456
|
Post by emovac on Jan 22, 2017 17:22:30 GMT -5
As for fear mongering that a Surge Protector will burn your house down, if it has UA or CSA certification (which is required by law in civilized countries like Canada) you have no fear of fire. APC protectors - all UL and CSA listed - created many fires. So APC (and the Consumer Product Safety Commission) said some 15 million protectors must be removed immediately. Somehow reality is fear mongering? "Schneider Electric Recalls APC Surge Protectors Due to Fire Hazard" www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/2014/Schneider-Electric-Recalls-APC-Surge-Protectors/UL listed, plug-in protectors (not used in conjunction with 'whole house' protection) can create and have created this human safety issue. Second, surge protectors do nothing for 135 volts on 120 volt service. Plug-in protectors do nothing until its let-through voltages is exceeded (ie 330 volts). Discussing overvoltage as if it was a surge is, at minimum, misleading. Surge protectors do nothing for high voltages. High voltages are irrelevant in a discussion of surge protectors. Two misconceptions discussed. Actually, this series of APC (H-10/H-15) provides both voltage regulation and surge protection....Link above I own two H-15s, and an H-10 ....S-series includes battery backup. You are correct in that they are separate issues. |
|
emovac
Emo VIPs
Saeed al-Sahhaf
Posts: 2,456
|
Post by emovac on Jan 22, 2017 17:31:31 GMT -5
Well I am rest assured that everyone who posted above me is a electrical engineer Most of this stuff is common sense. No engineering degree required. Reading a voltage screen at 135v was pretty straightforward. Engineers will tell you how and why something works. Ultimately, most end users don't really care - they just want it to work as designed. |
|
hemster
Global Moderator 
Particle Manufacturer
...still listening... still watching
Posts: 51,950
|
Post by hemster on Jan 22, 2017 18:45:27 GMT -5
^Agreed. The APC -H15 works great. I love mine and I live in the lightening capital of the world!
|
|
|
|
Post by westom on Jan 23, 2017 11:57:51 GMT -5
Actually, this series of APC (H-10/H-15) provides both voltage regulation and surge protection....Link above If true, then specification numbers for those 'advantages' are provided. No such numbers are posted because even APC does not make those claims in the above link. A $60 UPS provides numbers that define better voltage regulation. A surge protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Where is a dedicated and low impedance earth ground connection to that $450 power conditioner? Does not exist. They will not even discuss it. It does not claim to protect from potentially destructive transients. But again, if 'advantages' exist, then a post cites relevant specification number. Sufficient voltage regulation is already done (is required to exist) in all electronic appliances. No specification number in the above link defines effective surge protection. How many 'unprotected' appliances were destroyed? Dishwasher, clocks, refrigerator, TVs, LED and CFL bulbs, furnace? APC only works 'great' when other unprotected appliances are destroyed. It is expensive - ie $450. So it must do something? Nonsense. If it did something useful, then other unprotected and destroyed appliances are listed. Appliances (ie central air, GFCIs) already contain sufficient protection. Protection from potentially destructive surges is provided by something completely different, defined above, and costs about $1 per protected appliance. |
|
emovac
Emo VIPs
Saeed al-Sahhaf
Posts: 2,456
|
Post by emovac on Jan 23, 2017 13:46:29 GMT -5
Your debate points would be better served with an EE. My link was only to refute the fact voltage regulation and surge proection can be had in the same device.
|
|
|
|
Post by westom on Jan 23, 2017 22:44:38 GMT -5
My link was only to refute the fact voltage regulation and surge proection can be had in the same device. Those specification numbers are layman simple. For example, if that APC device does voltage regulation, then numbers for regulation exist in specifications. None exist. Category for "Voltage Regulation" does not exist. Why? It is legal and too routine to lie in subjective paragraphs and sales brochures. Only place they cannot lie is in numeric specifications. Any layman can read a tab called "Technical Specifications" in an above link. Nothing there lists voltage regulation. Why? They are not marketing to informed consumers. They are marketing to others easily manipulated by hearsay, myths, and junk science created by subjective reasoning. Lying is that easy - and legal. That APC does not do and need not do what is implied in its subjective spin. Informed consumers read layman simple numbers in "Technical Specifications". No number claims or even implies voltage regulation. It also does not claim to protect from typically destructive surges. BTW, we learn from our mistakes. |
|
emovac
Emo VIPs
Saeed al-Sahhaf
Posts: 2,456
|
Post by emovac on Jan 24, 2017 3:17:13 GMT -5
My link was only to refute the fact voltage regulation and surge proection can be had in the same device. Those specification numbers are layman simple. For example, if that APC device does voltage regulation, then numbers for regulation exist in specification. None exist. Category for "Voltage Regulation" does not exist in specifications. Why? It is legal and too routine to lie in subjective paragraphs and sales brochures. The only place they cannot lie is in numeric specifications. Any layman can read a tab called "Technical Specifications" in an above link. Nothing there lists voltage regulation. Why? They are not marketing to informed consumers. They are marketing to others easily manipulated by hearsay, myths, and junk science created by subjective reasoning. Lying is that easy - and legal. That APC does not do and need not do what is implied in its subjective spin. Informed consumers read layman simple numbers in "Technical Specifications". No number claims or even implies voltage regulation. It also does not claim to protect from typically destructive surges. BTW, we learn from our mistakes. Page 13 |
|
|
|
Post by westom on Jan 24, 2017 10:32:10 GMT -5
Manual page 13 (Adobe page 21): Electronics already do that. Portable electronics are even more robust. Using your numbers, refrigerator, dishwasher, washing machine, vacuum cleaner, and furnace need that $450 box. It does nothing useful for electronics. When AC voltages vary that much, internal DC voltages must not vary more than 0.1 volts. Equal or superior AVR is already inside electronics. Even a $60 UPS provides better AVR - for all voltages down to zero. I assumed those are your numbers. Assumed because in this and previous posts, actual numbers are not quoted. Meanwhile a category called "Technical Specifications" was not quoted. Others can learn. When a relevant spec number is not specifically cited, then suspect recommendations from hearsay or speculation. As in previous posts, I quote actual numbers. A significant difference. "Technical Specifications" are on manual page 17 (Adobe page 25). Same tiny AVR is defined. Also not listed are numbers that define effective surge protection. AVR is only doing what already exists in electronics. Surge protection is near zero (ineffective). The box costs $450. It does what to make one happy? Which specification number causes happiness? All a cautioned. Recommendations that do not specifically cite relevant numbers are suspect. How often do your incandescent light bulbs dim to half intensity or double intensity? Electronics make those voltage variations irrelevant. Protection is needed from voltage variations that do not exist? Why would anyone spend $450 for a box to cure anomalies that do not happen and do not cause problems? When actual numbers are quoted, then damning questions exist. |
|
|
|
Post by Priapulus on Jan 24, 2017 14:23:00 GMT -5
A surge protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Not true. You still seem to think that a surge protector is a lightning arrestor. It is not; it operates differently. Sincerely /Blair p.s. I not going to argue with you ~again~ about this; I know your mind is made up. |
|
emovac
Emo VIPs
Saeed al-Sahhaf
Posts: 2,456
|
Post by emovac on Jan 24, 2017 14:29:08 GMT -5
Don't give me any credit for that thought....😄
|
|
|
|
Post by westom on Jan 24, 2017 18:45:49 GMT -5
You still seem to think that a surge protector is a lightning arrestor. It is not; it operates differently. An honest reply would have said *how* it works differently. Propaganda from ineffective protectors may make that claim. Meanwhile informed homeowners do not waste $450 on ineffective 'magic' boxes. Informed homeowners properly earth a 'whole house' solution for about $1 per protected appliance. Then an effective protector, 'arrestor', SPD, or TVSS (all are same) means protection from surges created by linemen errors, stray cars, tree rodents, grid switching ... and direct lightning strikes. If a protector does not protect from lightning, then what does it protect from? Transients that are too tiny to damage appliances? What kind of protection is that? One only recommended by hearsay. How often are appliances destroyed by surges? When a rare and potentially destructive surge does exist, then everything needs that protection. Informed consumers do not spend $450 on a magic box that claims ineffective protection and AVR. Instead, informed homeowners spend $1 per for solutions proven by over 100 years of experience and well proven science. And, BTW, those recommendations say why ... with numbers. |
|
|
|
Post by Jim on Jan 24, 2017 20:00:45 GMT -5
I appreciate a good argument about protection....
But without naming any products that actually are well engineered and aren't full of fluff and propaganda.... it's like talking about a really good bottle of wine that you've never tasted or seen.
I understand that there is a lot of propaganda and poorly designed devices.
So which products work and which manufacturers are honest about legitimate protection?
|
|
|
|
Post by Priapulus on Jan 24, 2017 20:03:15 GMT -5
You still seem to think that a surge protector is a lightning arrestor. It is not; it operates differently. An honest reply would have said *how* it works differently. 1) All lightning wants to do, is complete it's trip to the earth. A lightning arrestor, say on a television antenna tower, takes the huge spike of energy on the lead-in, and moves it to a very low impedance path to the earth. 2) A surge protector sitting in your livingroom under the TV, does not have a low impedance path to ground. 3) When a 1,000v power spike arrives at your TV thru the power cord, all it wants to do is get to the earth. That spike could be on the hot, neutral or ground. Let's say it comes on the neutral wire. The spike looks around for a path to the earth and spots one. Perhaps the path is into your TV power cord, out the HMDI shield to your processor, across the speaker wire to your power amp, and finally, out the ground wire of amplifier power cord. Suddenly and mysteriously you now have damage to your TV, processor and power amp; carnage from the passage of the spike to ground. This path thru your gear is known as a ground loop. Surge protection is actually a ground loop problem. 3) With a surge protector--> When the three MOVs in the surge protector see the spike on the power neutral, they instantly short together, so neutral, ground and hot are now all at 1,000 volts. (Actually, the Hot will be at 1,110 volts, but that not relevant now.) The MOVs have effectively shorted out the ground loop path thru your gear. Since there is no longer a path thru your gear, it is safe. And the spike continues on down your (relatively high impedance) power ground wire, on it's way to earth. 4) Which is why to be effective, all your equipment must be plugged into the same surge protector (including CATV coax, etc). 5) Now, if your house got hit by lightning the surge protector probably would explode quite spectacularly, but its sacrifice might, ~might~, save your processor. Without it, your processor would be the thing being spectacular! Sincerely /blair |
|
|
|
Post by bluemeanies on Jan 25, 2017 8:05:03 GMT -5
Well I am rest assured that everyone who posted above me is a electrical engineer 😂Of course...I was in a small class. Only five people, myself included. I remember those guys...MOE, LARRY, CURLY, AND SHEMP! SHEMP was the smartest! Being serious here I feel we all try. What is good for one system and area might not be consistent with others. Having said that I have spoken to Electricians, PECO (my electric supplier) people in the audio/video business as well as electronic experts. Everyone had a different opinion or and addition to how to protect your equipment. With everything I have done to protect my equipment I do not feel it is 100% safe. Not b/c I did not do enough or someone else had a better idea but simply put, Mother Nature is unpredictable and she is in control. 10 years ago my neighbor directly across the street was hit by lighting on the back wall of their house. The lighting burned up the electric panel, and every appliance in the house. Not to mention that the entire outside back wall and half of the outside SIDE wall was scorched. Their entire house on the outside had to be re-stuccoed and wire lath had to be replaced and painted. Fortunately nothing happened to my house or her neighbors except flickering of lights. I personally am trying my BEST to protect my interest...everyone should have due diligence while investing their hard earned money into this hobby. |
|
|
|
Post by monkumonku on Jan 25, 2017 9:59:48 GMT -5
Well I am rest assured that everyone who posted above me is a electrical engineer 😂Of course...I was in a small class. Only five people, myself included. I remember those guys...MOE, LARRY, CURLY, AND SHEMP! SHEMP was the smartest! Being serious here I feel we all try. What is good for one system and area might not be consistent with others. Having said that I have spoken to Electricians, PECO (my electric supplier) people in the audio/video business as well as electronic experts. Everyone had a different opinion or and addition to how to protect your equipment. With everything I have done to protect my equipment I do not feel it is 100% safe. Not b/c I did not do enough or someone else had a better idea but simply put, Mother Nature is unpredictable and she is in control. 10 years ago my neighbor directly across the street was hit by lighting on the back wall of their house. The lighting burned up the electric panel, and every appliance in the house. Not to mention that the entire outside back wall and half of the outside SIDE wall was scorched. Their entire house on the outside had to be re-stuccoed and wire lath had to be replaced and painted. Fortunately nothing happened to my house or her neighbors except flickering of lights. I personally am trying my BEST to protect my interest...everyone should have due diligence while investing their hard earned money into this hobby. That's a sensible post, especially the last sentence. We all should practice due diligence. That said, if our equipment does happen to burn up as a result of an electrical surge, that does provide a good excuse to try new gear.  |
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,261
|
Post by KeithL on Jan 25, 2017 10:10:55 GMT -5
You will also find that your homeowners' insurance covers a lot of this sort of thing. And, if you have a lot of money invested in equipment, you should check with your insurance agent. Often, even if it's not covered by your standard insurance, you can raise your coverage, or add specific extras, for a reasonable extra cost. (I pay an extra $100 a year for extra theft and loss coverage, above the standard limits, on my cameras and electronics.) 😂Of course...I was in a small class. Only five people, myself included. I remember those guys...MOE, LARRY, CURLY, AND SHEMP! SHEMP was the smartest! Being serious here I feel we all try. What is good for one system and area might not be consistent with others. Having said that I have spoken to Electricians, PECO (my electric supplier) people in the audio/video business as well as electronic experts. Everyone had a different opinion or and addition to how to protect your equipment. With everything I have done to protect my equipment I do not feel it is 100% safe. Not b/c I did not do enough or someone else had a better idea but simply put, Mother Nature is unpredictable and she is in control. 10 years ago my neighbor directly across the street was hit by lighting on the back wall of their house. The lighting burned up the electric panel, and every appliance in the house. Not to mention that the entire outside back wall and half of the outside SIDE wall was scorched. Their entire house on the outside had to be re-stuccoed and wire lath had to be replaced and painted. Fortunately nothing happened to my house or her neighbors except flickering of lights. I personally am trying my BEST to protect my interest...everyone should have due diligence while investing their hard earned money into this hobby. That's a sensible post, especially the last sentence. We all should practice due diligence. That said, if our equipment does happen to burn up as a result of an electrical surge, that does provide a good excuse to try new gear. |
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,261
|
Post by KeithL on Jan 25, 2017 10:45:15 GMT -5
This is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. Surge Protectors block or trip on VERY high voltages; they are designed to catch voltage "spikes". The peaks on a 120 VAC sine wave are around 170 V (this is normal; the tips of the sine waves are higher than the RMS value). A typical MOV or gas surge suppressor starts blocking at between 300 and 330 V (which is way above that 170 V you normally see). If you read the specs you will see this described as "clamping voltage" or "let-through voltage". Series surge suppressors ride on the normal peak voltage, and so clamp at a somewhat lower voltage, but they ignore "normal" slow variations as well. In other words, any normal surge suppressor, working as specified, will cheerfully pass 110 VAC, or 120 VAC, or 135 VAC. Noise is somewhat different. The power supplies in most equipment won't be damaged by a short spike of 200 or 300 volts. However, it may leak through the filtering, so you may hear an annoying "tick" or "bang". Most surge suppressors won't stop this either (series surge suppressors will). What you need to block this sort of thing is a good Line Filter. (Note that many surge suppressors ALSO include a line filter.) If you want a device that will control the voltage, and make sure it remains between a given range of values, then you're looking for a Voltage Regulator (or a "voltage stabilizer"). In general, a voltage regulator is a more complex device than a surge suppressor, and costs a lot more. There are also devices available that don't control the voltage, but simply act like a circuit breaker, and switch your equipment off if the line voltage goes above or below preset limits. One of these may benefit you if your area is subject to occasional wild voltage excursions. Also note that the key word in one post I saw was "sensitive" - as in "sensitive electronic equipment". Most modern equipment is NOT sensitive to slight variations, up to about 135 VAC. For example, incandescent bulbs will burn brighter, but have a much shorter life, at 135 VAC than at 110 VAC; while most LED bulbs are immune to even major voltage swings (non-dimmable bulbs will probably remain at the same brightness; dimmable ones will vary; but they won't be damaged). Some motors can be quite fussy, although motors are usually more sensitive to very low voltages. The 115 VAC versions of most of our Emotiva equipment won't mind anything between 105 VAC or 110 VAC and 135 VAC. (And some of our stuff that runs on "universal voltage" will cheerfully run on anything between 100 VAC and 250 VAC. (As an aside, consumer equipment SHOULD be designed to operate over the voltage range that's typical for the area where it's sold - or the voltage range that's specified as "normal" for that area. Any piece of modern equipment, sold in the US, really should be able to run safely on anything between about 110 VAC and 135 VAC.) If you plan to monitor the voltage in your area, then you might want to contact your power company and find out what they're actually promising to deliver to you. Most power companies use three numbers (sometimes they call the last two something like "plan A and plan B"): 1) there's "nominal" voltage 2) there's a long term variation (it's supposed to not exceed these values for very long) 3) there's a short term variation limit So, for example, they may specify that: - your nominal voltage is 120 VAC - the normal range is 120 VAC +/- 5% (between 114 VAC and 126 VAC) - and it won''t go outside 120 VAC +6% / - 10% for more than 5% of the time or more than 5 minutes at a stretch (between 108 VAC and 128 VAC) ........................... .............................. Second, surge protectors do nothing for 135 volts on 120 volt service. Plug-in protectors do nothing until its let-through voltages is exceeded (ie 330 volts). Discussing overvoltage as if it was a surge is, at minimum, misleading. Surge protectors do nothing for high voltages. High voltages are irrelevant in a discussion of surge protectors. ......................... |
|
|
|
Post by Loop 7 on Jan 25, 2017 11:14:30 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by westom on Jan 25, 2017 12:20:00 GMT -5
But without naming any products that actually are well engineered and aren't full of fluff and propaganda.... it's like talking about a really good bottle of wine that you've never tasted or seen. ... So which products work and which manufacturers are honest about legitimate protection? Effective protectors are a commodity - like rice. Manufacturer name means less. Specifications mean everything. A minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. Then lightning (ie 20,000 amps) does not even damage a protector. Again, a protect or is only a connecting device to what does protect ion. TV cable needs no protector - a hardwire makes that connection. Protect ion is the item that absorbs energy. That is single point earth ground. Protect ors are simple science. The 'art' of protect ion is earthing. For example, if a ground wire goes up over the foundation and down to an earthing electrode, then that ground meets human safety requirements (ie code). And compromises protection. That wire is too long, has sharp bends, and is not routed separately from other non-grounding wires. Protect ion increases when that wire goes through the foundation and down to single point earth ground. Shorter wire and no sharp bends reduces impedance. Not resistance. Impedance. An example of the 'art'. This is only 'secondary' protection. Homeowners are strongly encouraged to verify integrity of their 'primary' protection layer. A previous example where the breaker box was blown out: it is probable that the 'primary' protection layer was missing. Maybe some copper thief disconnected it? That missing wire and resulting 'follow through' current (not the lightning current) could make possible massive breaker box damage. Pictures (ignore text) after the expression "more safety hazards" (about halfway down) demonstrate how to inspect the 'primary' protection layer: www.fpl-fraud.com/Back to protectors. Effective protectors are manufactured by companies known by any guy for integrity including Intermatic, Square D, Ditek, Siemens, Polyphaser (an industry benchmark), Syscom, Leviton, Keison, ABB, Delta, Erico, General Electric, and Cutler-Hammer (Eaton). Not listed are APC, Belkin, Panamax, Tripplite, and Monster. Obviously. Those products do not have THE most critical item found in every effective protector - a dedicated wire for a low impedance (ie less than 3 meter) connection to single point earth ground. |
|
