|
|
Post by Jim on Feb 6, 2017 11:37:30 GMT -5
So why doesn't Emotiva provide signed drivers?
The argument that "it's not REAL" protection just seems like a distraction.
They should be signed isn't really up for debate.
|
|
KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,261
|
Post by KeithL on Feb 6, 2017 11:59:30 GMT -5
I disagree - do you always do everything that Microsoft (or Apple) suggests that you do? The reason is simple.... Because it serves no real purpose.... But it adds cost and aggravation - and we'd have to pass the cost on to our customers. (Lots of companies don't bother to sign their drivers - and we're one of them.) So why doesn't Emotiva provide signed drivers? The argument that "it's not REAL" protection just seems like a distraction. They should be signed isn't really up for debate. |
|
|
|
Post by Casey Leedom on Feb 6, 2017 14:20:18 GMT -5
Yeah, I know, I'm in a minority liking Walled Gardens. It's because I spend my life working on computers every day. When I get home, the last thing I want to do is administer computer systems. I'd rather take advantage of someone else doing that.
Casey
|
|
|
|
Post by Jim on Feb 6, 2017 14:24:53 GMT -5
I don't think we should use firewalls. They're too time consuming and inconvenient.
They serve no real purpose...
|
|
|
|
Post by vcautokid on Feb 6, 2017 15:48:36 GMT -5
Where fact imitates life. So far no issues using the DC-1 with my computers with the driver provided. I don't know, but maybe I am missing something? All I know is my computer world has not come to an end. I guess other's mileage may vary.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jim on Feb 6, 2017 19:42:33 GMT -5
The Emotiva code should be properly signed. This is 2017 with hackers galore. Recommending that someone just disable a security feature even briefly isn't appropriate or professional. This should be fixed. Casey I'm just quoting you so this sentiment isn't lost... Arguing that somehow it's okay because "lots of people don't" is a dissapoining argument. |
|
|
|
Post by jinjuku on Feb 6, 2017 22:03:27 GMT -5
Driver signing is an authentication mechanism. By using a signed driver of trusted sources, it is made sure that if somehow the Emotiva DL sight for the driver is compromised and a rouge installer package is inserted that I can't install it. Driver signing serves the same purpose whether I get the driver from direct from Emotiva or a buddy slides me a USB key with same. It's trust but verify. Sorry but I think your understanding is incomplete in this regard. Again, I like the DAC, a lot, but wish, what should be par for the course, was signed driver/install package. Also looking @ the XMC-1 for next year to replace my 4308Ci. Keep up the great products. Sign your drivers  |
|
|
|
Post by yeahwicked on Feb 6, 2017 22:59:06 GMT -5
Seeing that I kinda sorta stirred the pot on this one, I'm going to add my thoughts on the matter (my opinion is like super important).
Just get the drivers signed ffs.
Not only is it just that bit less safe to install unsigned drivers, as others have pointed out.
You're also inconveniencing a good % of people trying to get things up and running.
It did for me
|
|
|
|
Post by jinjuku on Feb 6, 2017 23:11:20 GMT -5
UAC2 is coming to Windows @ some point. Thank goodness.
|
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,261
|
Post by KeithL on Feb 7, 2017 10:33:33 GMT -5
UPDATE... UAC2 support was included in early Windows 10 betas - but disappeared again. Reports are that the latest beta version of Windows 10 now DOES support UAC2 again.If this pans out, then having to install UAC2 drivers in Windows may soon become a thing of the past. ======================================================================= Microsoft has been very lazy on that front (I can't think of any other possible reason why they still fail to include it).
Apparently, when asked, back in the Windows 7 days, why they didn't include support for UAC2, Microsoft's response was "lack of interest".
They clearly - and sadly - STILL don't consider Windows to be a high-end digital audio platform.Apple does it.
Most Linux distros include it (including Raspberry Pi variants).
Helllooooooo Microsoft !Incidentally, on our new products, we've moved to a different USB chip solution altogether.... XMos.... (and the drivers that go with it are signed.... ) However.... Users should also remember that the drivers are NOT a requirement of the individual products, but of UAC2 support in Windows. The drivers are ONLY required because Windows lacks UAC2 support, and so it must be provided by the hardware vendor. UAC2 is standard.... the need for product-specific UAC2 drivers is a result of how drivers are handled in Windows. (It would also be possible to use a third party product to add generic support for UAC2 for ALL products into Windows itself - rather than drivers for individual products.) And, if Microsoft adds UAC2 support to Windows in the future, then you will NOT require drivers, even with our older products that you may already have. UAC2 is coming to Windows @ some point. Thank goodness. |
|
|
|
Post by bredick on Aug 8, 2017 23:55:16 GMT -5
UPDATE... UAC2 support was included in early Windows 10 betas - but disappeared again. Reports are that the latest beta version of Windows 10 now DOES support UAC2 again.If this pans out, then having to install UAC2 drivers in Windows may soon become a thing of the past. So KeithL, has the new windows native driver been working for people that have updated? At one point a while back Windows decided it didn't like the hack that made the EMO driver work anymore so I had to switch to the Schitt driver. Now suddenly I am not able to set sampling rates above 16/44.1 or 16/48, no more 24/192 or 32/192 that I have been able to use for the last year and a half. The windows 10 native driver just gives a code 10 and does not work at all, the EMO driver complains that it may have been tampered with and will not install even after disabling the integrity checking, the Schitt Driver is no longer allowing playback greater than 16/48. I've tried uninstalling all of the drivers and reinstalling each with multiple reboots in between, tried uninstalling the last month of windows updates, tried installing the insider updates, tried usb 2.0 ports, usb 3.0 ports... nothing is fixing it. I suppose the next step would be trying a different pc entirely to see it it is a hardware problem in the pc or the DC-1. |
|
|
|
Post by vcautokid on Aug 9, 2017 4:05:00 GMT -5
Mentioning Windows and best security practices in the same context is a contradiction in terms... Just stop using that crappy OS, Windows that is, and the problem is gone.  Uh, don't forget IOS, Android, and BSD Unix, and linux. All are targets. Not defending Windows. As if I need Too? Anything to a greater or lesser degree is suspect at some point. Let's talk about the hole Safari that Apple didn't fix for years, or the over 1000 exploits and counting on Android. Yes I work in I.T. and see this stuff everyday. Just keeping it real folks. |
|
|
|
Post by copperpipe on Aug 9, 2017 7:33:27 GMT -5
Mentioning Windows and best security practices in the same context is a contradiction in terms... Just stop using that crappy OS, Windows that is, and the problem is gone. Uh, don't forget IOS, Android, and BSD Unix, and linux. All are targets. Not defending Windows. As if I need Too? Anything to a greater or lesser degree is suspect at some point. Let's talk about the hole Safari that Apple didn't fix for years, or the over 1000 exploits and counting on Android. Yes I work in I.T. and see this stuff everyday. Just keeping it real folks. Everyone who even slightly works in IT has an opinion I do too, and windows is just garbage, sorry. Does it come with a firewall which automatically blocks IP's after failed login attempts? Does every package/software you run, get security updates, without you having to manually track them down? Can you use your computer without an AV package crushing any performance you might have had? Can you use it without the owner tracking your usage? Does it come without ads in your start menu? Do you have FULL control over everything, like what your default browser is? And on and on. Why you guys keep using it is beyond me. At this point, unless you need it to run Adobe photoshop or quickbooks or a few office packages like that, there is no need to run windows. And you can't just dump BSD/Android/Linux/Windows in the same paragraph, point and say: they all have had vulnerabilities. Because while it is true, what you are missing is the sheer scale of those numbers, and how easy it is to hack one or the other. They are NOT the same in terms of being vulnerable. And even leaving the security issue out of it, the amount of bull___ you need to put up with from msft these days is staggering. |
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,261
|
Post by KeithL on Aug 9, 2017 10:40:28 GMT -5
1) The latest version of Windows 10 (the Creator's Edition) finally has UAC2 support built in..... so you don't need anybody's DAC drivers any more. And, yes, that's WAY overdue. 2) Yes, most people I know agree that Windows sort of sucks. However, the reason so many people continue to use it is the same as the reason why many other things that are less than optimal continue to be popular - because the only things worse than Windows are all the other alternatives. To be fair, if you're going to ask "why you guys keep using it", then you might as well ask why more than 80% of the computer desktops on the planet continue to use it..... and you're going to get back a laundry list of reasons. a) Yes, many serious computer users consider not being able to run the major commercial apps to be a deal breaker. Those "few commercial apps" are in fact the reason why most corporations, and many serious individual users, bought their computer in the first place. The nine MILLION people who use the Adobe apps do consider them sort of important (that number is based on the number of subscriptions that Adobe claims are currently being paid). The Linux alternative, GIMP, is pretty good, and has some cute features, but it's about 20 YEARS behind Photoshop in terms of modern features. Among other things, you won't have any problem hiring a temp who knows how to use PhotoShop, you can probably find a free course on how to use it at your local library, and knowing how to use it will look good on your resume. Likewise, it's easy to find a temp who can run MS Word, and it looks good on your resume when you're the one applying for the job. The free alternatives are OK for casual users.... but they really aren't in the same class.... or even on the same planet. b) I've got quite a few friends who are very into Linux, and who did lots of Linux consulting work during the period a few years ago when people imagined that companies would "switch to open source solutions to free themselves from the tyranny of Microsoft". In fact, many of them use Linux on THEIR computers, and are quite fond of it. However, the bottom line is that "the movement to open source" was a commercial failure. The reality is simply that Windows, with all of its shortcomings, is still easier and cheaper for a company to use and support than the free open source alternatives, with their almost total lack of available support, and total lack of accountability when something goes wrong. (If your Toyota breaks you can get it fixed at your local garage. If a bug crops up in the Linux code that consultant wrote for you last year, you'd better hope he wrote it well, and documented it well, and you can find someone else to figure it out for you. A lot of the companies who tried to make the switch found themselves eaten alive by this sort of stuff.) In short, while I know lots of people who use Linux personally, I don't know any who would recommend it for their barely-computer-literate friends to use. c) Too many options. At least there are only a few different versions of Windows - and only one of them is officially current. Think fast: "How do I get Kodi (XMBC) running on my Linux computer to deliver bit perfect audio at 192k?" (Volumio seems to be pre-configured correctly.... at least running on a Raspberry Pi 3; I never got it to work right on one installation of Kodi.... even after I made the correct settings in ALSA it didn't seem to want to output UAC2 audio at sample rates above 96k to the particular DAC I had connected at the time..... and apparently the internal drivers had issues with C-Media interface chips. Seems like Linux "just works" - except when it doesn't. And, when that happens, you end up having to do a lot of research to figure out what's going on. The good side is that there are lots of enthusiasts to ask; the bad is that you don't know which one has the answer that will work. At least with Windows 10, there won't be a dozen different things I have to try depending on which distribution I'm running.) Obviously you're one of those users who WANTS to have control over every little thing..... which is sort of the way i feel about it. However, many people are not. Uh, don't forget IOS, Android, and BSD Unix, and linux. All are targets. Not defending Windows. As if I need Too? Anything to a greater or lesser degree is suspect at some point. Let's talk about the hole Safari that Apple didn't fix for years, or the over 1000 exploits and counting on Android. Yes I work in I.T. and see this stuff everyday. Just keeping it real folks. Everyone who even slightly works in IT has an opinion I do too, and windows is just garbage, sorry. Does it come with a firewall which automatically blocks IP's after failed login attempts? Does every package/software you run, get security updates, without you having to manually track them down? Can you use your computer without an AV package crushing any performance you might have had? Can you use it without the owner tracking your usage? Does it come without ads in your start menu? Do you have FULL control over everything, like what your default browser is? And on and on. Why you guys keep using it is beyond me. At this point, unless you need it to run Adobe photoshop or quickbooks or a few office packages like that, there is no need to run windows. And you can't just dump BSD/Android/Linux/Windows in the same paragraph, point and say: they all have had vulnerabilities. Because while it is true, what you are missing is the sheer scale of those numbers, and how easy it is to hack one or the other. They are NOT the same in terms of being vulnerable. And even leaving the security issue out of it, the amount of bull___ you need to put up with from msft these days is staggering. |
|
|
|
Post by alucard on Aug 9, 2017 11:20:22 GMT -5
Why you guys keep using it is beyond me. Simplicty and minimal effort. I was running Win XP and switched to Linux (Ubuntu and later Mint) a number of years ago. Lot's of reading later I learned how to work it and get software/hardware installed d functioning. Overall I did like Linux. I gave Windows 7 a try a year or two later was wowed by how easy it was to install software/hardware and just overall management. I'm now on Windows 10 and the machine is running well. Now-a-days I just need something for email, chrome browser, MS Office (word, excel), Spotify, Emo Little Ego dac, printer, wireless network card (for desktop), and some other things. |
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,261
|
Post by KeithL on Aug 9, 2017 11:27:40 GMT -5
Errrr....... NO!  If you disable DSE (signature enforcement) to install the drivers, but re-enable it afterwards, it will almost certainly wipe out the drivers when you re-enable it. With the drivers for our Ego DACs, certain security programs get a false positive on the installer (Thank You Symantec.). For those, you can disable the offending program to do the install, then re-enable it later. However, because DSE has an issue with the C-Media drivers themselves..... it will not allow them to "exist" at all. You will be able to install them, and they may work temporarily, but they will "disappear" later... unless you permanently disable DSE. Why isn't their driver package signed? I'm not going to disable driver signing on any of my computers. Signing has been around since the days of XP. 2003. This should be standard best practice by now. I have much love for Emotiva but this shouldn't be the case here. Driver signing, and now by extension, code signing is a way to protect the system from malicious driver/code execution. Just disable it man. Then re-enable it. Now you'll have a perfectly fine driver written by Emotiva working on your DC-1. And yes, it makes sense that being a professional company, they should just have gone through the extra step. But they didn't. So you either do it or you don't. Your computer won't be harmed either way. |
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,261
|
Post by KeithL on Aug 9, 2017 11:32:11 GMT -5
JUST TO CLARIFY - FOR THOSE WHO HAVE MISSED THE OTHER THREADS.
The latest version of Windows 10 (the Creator's Edition) now has BUILT IN support for USB Audio Class 2.
That means that it will work with the USB inputs on all of our products WITHOUT INSTALLING ANY EXTRA DRIVERS.
So, just to be clear, the discussion about signing drivers is now moot - because there won't be future drivers to install.
|
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,261
|
Post by KeithL on Aug 9, 2017 11:37:32 GMT -5
My sentiments exactly...... Linux is fun and cool to play with...... But, if a friend came to me, told me they want to run the standard commercial apps, and wanted a computer they could have up and running in a few hours, with no extra fiddling around, I would have to go with Windows. And, not to be mean, but, if the cost isn't an issue, the commercial apps like PhotoShop and MS Word are really powerful, and worlds better than their free and open source counterparts. Why you guys keep using it is beyond me. Simplicty and minimal effort. I was running Win XP and switched to Linux (Ubuntu and later Mint) a number of years ago. Lot's of reading later I learned how to work it and get software/hardware installed d functioning. Overall I did like Linux. I gave Windows 7 a try a year or two later was wowed by how easy it was to install software/hardware and just overall management. I'm now on Windows 10 and the machine is running well. Now-a-days I just need something for email, chrome browser, MS Office (word, excel), Spotify, Emo Little Ego dac, printer, wireless network card (for desktop), and some other things. |
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,261
|
Post by KeithL on Aug 9, 2017 12:03:38 GMT -5
Hmmmmmm...... First, yes, most people seem to have no problem with the native Windows 10 (CE) UAC2 driver. I just plugged mine in to confirm that it's still working fine. And it DOES run fine up to 24/192k (or higher with the Ego). I've run it on two computers that were updated to Windows 10 Creator's Edition.... and one that was fresh-installed with it.... with no problems at all. There are a few things that come to mind, however.... 1) Are you sure that you have the Creator's Edition? Apparently the Windows Creator's Edition is still not perfectly compatible with all hardware - and some computers aren't being offered the upgrade. (If so, then they will let you manually perform the update, but it will never show up as a recommended or "offered" update.) 1a) There may be issues with the drivers and some USB port hardware (it may be part of the "not compatible with some hardware" thing.) (The Windows driver works with our USB inputs - but that doesn't rule out issues between it and the hardware in your computer.) 2) I'm not exactly sure how Windows handles the choice of drivers. On one machine which originally had the Emotiva drivers, I removed them using Device Manager, and Windows automatically loaded its drivers when I plugged in the DAC. On another computer which I set up from scratch with Windows 10 CE, it just went out, found the drivers, and worked. 2a) While it sounds to me like you have an excellent handle on the order of things........ It is possible that Windows is installing a driver from somewhere else. Make sure that you specifically: 1 - plug in the DAC so Windows sees it and the driver loads 2 - go into Device Manager and tell it to remove/delete the driver 3 - unplug the DAC 4 - reboot the computer 5 - plug the DAC back in and wait for the driver to load 6 - if it asks if it should look on the Internet "for the latest driver" say NO(Windows SHOULD give preference to the internal driver - which should be the good one.) 3) Far and away the reason we usually see a DAC work, but refuse sample rates above 48k, is that the USB cable is too long... or there's some other sort of USB issue. This limitation is timing-related. Therefore, if you're using a long-ish cable, even if it worked last week, things could have changed (Windows internal timing could be slightly different after an update). Try a short cable and see if the problem goes away. 4) I agree that trying a different computer would be a good next step (it could be a problem with your DC-1 or computer itself). UPDATE... UAC2 support was included in early Windows 10 betas - but disappeared again. Reports are that the latest beta version of Windows 10 now DOES support UAC2 again.If this pans out, then having to install UAC2 drivers in Windows may soon become a thing of the past. So KeithL , has the new windows native driver been working for people that have updated? At one point a while back Windows decided it didn't like the hack that made the EMO driver work anymore so I had to switch to the Schitt driver. Now suddenly I am not able to set sampling rates above 16/44.1 or 16/48, no more 24/192 or 32/192 that I have been able to use for the last year and a half. The windows 10 native driver just gives a code 10 and does not work at all, the EMO driver complains that it may have been tampered with and will not install even after disabling the integrity checking, the Schitt Driver is no longer allowing playback greater than 16/48. I've tried uninstalling all of the drivers and reinstalling each with multiple reboots in between, tried uninstalling the last month of windows updates, tried installing the insider updates, tried usb 2.0 ports, usb 3.0 ports... nothing is fixing it. I suppose the next step would be trying a different pc entirely to see it it is a hardware problem in the pc or the DC-1. |
|
|
|
Post by copperpipe on Aug 9, 2017 14:43:26 GMT -5
1) The latest version of Windows 10 (the Creator's Edition) finally has UAC2 support built in..... so you don't need anybody's DAC drivers any more. And, yes, that's WAY overdue. 2) Yes, most people I know agree that Windows sort of sucks. However, the reason so many people continue to use it is the same as the reason why many other things that are less than optimal continue to be popular - because the only things worse than Windows are all the other alternatives. To be fair, if you're going to ask "why you guys keep using it", then you might as well ask why more than 80% of the computer desktops on the planet continue to use it..... and you're going to get back a laundry list of reasons. a) Yes, many serious computer users consider not being able to run the major commercial apps to be a deal breaker. Those "few commercial apps" are in fact the reason why most corporations, and many serious individual users, bought their computer in the first place. The nine MILLION people who use the Adobe apps do consider them sort of important (that number is based on the number of subscriptions that Adobe claims are currently being paid). The Linux alternative, GIMP, is pretty good, and has some cute features, but it's about 20 YEARS behind Photoshop in terms of modern features. Among other things, you won't have any problem hiring a temp who knows how to use PhotoShop, you can probably find a free course on how to use it at your local library, and knowing how to use it will look good on your resume. Likewise, it's easy to find a temp who can run MS Word, and it looks good on your resume when you're the one applying for the job. The free alternatives are OK for casual users.... but they really aren't in the same class.... or even on the same planet. b) I've got quite a few friends who are very into Linux, and who did lots of Linux consulting work during the period a few years ago when people imagined that companies would "switch to open source solutions to free themselves from the tyranny of Microsoft". In fact, many of them use Linux on THEIR computers, and are quite fond of it. However, the bottom line is that "the movement to open source" was a commercial failure. The reality is simply that Windows, with all of its shortcomings, is still easier and cheaper for a company to use and support than the free open source alternatives, with their almost total lack of available support, and total lack of accountability when something goes wrong. (If your Toyota breaks you can get it fixed at your local garage. If a bug crops up in the Linux code that consultant wrote for you last year, you'd better hope he wrote it well, and documented it well, and you can find someone else to figure it out for you. A lot of the companies who tried to make the switch found themselves eaten alive by this sort of stuff.) In short, while I know lots of people who use Linux personally, I don't know any who would recommend it for their barely-computer-literate friends to use. c) Too many options. At least there are only a few different versions of Windows - and only one of them is officially current. Think fast: "How do I get Kodi (XMBC) running on my Linux computer to deliver bit perfect audio at 192k?" (Volumio seems to be pre-configured correctly.... at least running on a Raspberry Pi 3; I never got it to work right on one installation of Kodi.... even after I made the correct settings in ALSA it didn't seem to want to output UAC2 audio at sample rates above 96k to the particular DAC I had connected at the time..... and apparently the internal drivers had issues with C-Media interface chips. Seems like Linux "just works" - except when it doesn't. And, when that happens, you end up having to do a lot of research to figure out what's going on. The good side is that there are lots of enthusiasts to ask; the bad is that you don't know which one has the answer that will work. At least with Windows 10, there won't be a dozen different things I have to try depending on which distribution I'm running.) Obviously you're one of those users who WANTS to have control over every little thing..... which is sort of the way i feel about it. However, many people are not. Everyone who even slightly works in IT has an opinion I do too, and windows is just garbage, sorry. Does it come with a firewall which automatically blocks IP's after failed login attempts? Does every package/software you run, get security updates, without you having to manually track them down? Can you use your computer without an AV package crushing any performance you might have had? Can you use it without the owner tracking your usage? Does it come without ads in your start menu? Do you have FULL control over everything, like what your default browser is? And on and on. Why you guys keep using it is beyond me. At this point, unless you need it to run Adobe photoshop or quickbooks or a few office packages like that, there is no need to run windows. And you can't just dump BSD/Android/Linux/Windows in the same paragraph, point and say: they all have had vulnerabilities. Because while it is true, what you are missing is the sheer scale of those numbers, and how easy it is to hack one or the other. They are NOT the same in terms of being vulnerable. And even leaving the security issue out of it, the amount of bull___ you need to put up with from msft these days is staggering. I agree(d) with point A; some software only works on windows, and if you are one of those then you have no choice. Point B I find confusing; custom code is not the fault of linux. I can find you many more "windows consultants" who have no business being near a compiler. The vast majority (98%) of linux software is open source, and is freely available. If anything, you have MORE options when something goes wrong on linux. Good luck trying to get a bug in a adobe photoshop fixed if they don't deem it high enough priority. Point C, again, I can't comment on your particular scenario because I just use vlc and a filemanager as opposed to a media program; but rest assured you can find just as many windows problems on the net; forums are chock full of horrendous windows problems. The "many distro's" thing is also not a problem; just stick with the top 3 distros; ubuntu, fedora, or suse, and you will find all the support you need. Windows also has it's own "too many flavours" problems; some software/features are only available on "pro" versions (remote desktop), or work differently (adding user accounts) etc. Windows 10 interface and control panel is nothing close to windows 7, whereas if you learned ubuntu in 2008 you would still be comfortable with today's ubuntu. We can both cherry pick problems here The reason why windows is still mostly used, is simply momentum. People are familiar with one environment and are too lazy, or just don't care enough to switch. That doesn't mean the alternative is a poor choice, it just means there are other factors at play than simply a "one is better than the other". Popularity is not a measurement of quality, or suitability, or whether one item is "best"; if that were the case, we should all be driving toyota camry's and eating at mcdonalds. I suspect most people who have tried linux and don't like it, end up not liking it because they learned windows first. You run into your first issue on linux and suddenly "linux sucks" and further frustrations just "confirm" your opinion. Whereas with windows, you just keep chugging along without blaming windows. |
|
