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Post by copperpipe on Aug 9, 2017 14:54:00 GMT -5
Why you guys keep using it is beyond me. Simplicty and minimal effort. I was running Win XP and switched to Linux (Ubuntu and later Mint) a number of years ago. Lot's of reading later I learned how to work it and get software/hardware installed d functioning. Overall I did like Linux. I gave Windows 7 a try a year or two later was wowed by how easy it was to install software/hardware and just overall management. I'm now on Windows 10 and the machine is running well. Now-a-days I just need something for email, chrome browser, MS Office (word, excel), Spotify, Emo Little Ego dac, printer, wireless network card (for desktop), and some other things. See this is what I don't get about windows fans; you can't possibly find windows 7 software easier to install than on linux, because linux has a software repository; you open up your package manager, search for the app, double click it and it installs. No hunting around on windows download sites or company websites, no trojans masquerading as real apps. And EVERYTHING is updated for you by the package manager; all your apps are installed and updated in one place. So it's a FACT that windows 7/10 is more work and effort and time to install and update your apps. You need to accept this because it makes you look silly to argue otherwise, kind of like saying you find it easier to bake your own bread instead of getting it delivered. Linux had this concept of "software store" already back in 1990's, long before the iphone and apple app store popularized the idea. Windows STILL doesn't have this to the same effect as it is on linux, 20 to 25 years later. Likewise with hardware; if linux supports it, you just plug it in and it works. You don't need to download and install 150 meg printer drivers; you plug your printer on, navigate to the printer control panel, and if linux supports your printer then it will detect it and configure it. No hassle. Plug in a new Microsoft/Logitech webcam, and it is IMMEDIATELY available for use. Plug in your android phone to a usb cable and boom, your picture software can immediately import the pics or you can browse the android drive through a filemanager. Nothing to install. Agreed that some hardware isn't supported AT ALL on linux, but that's a different story. But stick to common hardware and you are golden. |
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Post by copperpipe on Aug 9, 2017 15:01:16 GMT -5
My sentiments exactly...... Linux is fun and cool to play with...... But, if a friend came to me, told me they want to run the standard commercial apps, and wanted a computer they could have up and running in a few hours, with no extra fiddling around, I would have to go with Windows. And, not to be mean, but, if the cost isn't an issue, the commercial apps like PhotoShop and MS Word are really powerful, and worlds better than their free and open source counterparts. Simplicty and minimal effort. I was running Win XP and switched to Linux (Ubuntu and later Mint) a number of years ago. Lot's of reading later I learned how to work it and get software/hardware installed d functioning. Overall I did like Linux. I gave Windows 7 a try a year or two later was wowed by how easy it was to install software/hardware and just overall management. I'm now on Windows 10 and the machine is running well. Now-a-days I just need something for email, chrome browser, MS Office (word, excel), Spotify, Emo Little Ego dac, printer, wireless network card (for desktop), and some other things. If a friend came to me and was asking for advice, I install linux for them  Because I'm going to have to maintain the computer regardless, and it's far easier for me on linux. Excel and Word are quite good, but I doubt 95% of home usage actually needs to use them. LO works just fine. Heck, even google office is a better choice for most usage, and works equally well over the internet on windows/linux. Home users can barely import pics from their camera, let alone use something like photoshop. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 9, 2017 15:14:44 GMT -5
It's funny.... we draw almost the opposite conclusions from the same information.  While I accept that I have quite a few friends who depend on me for support, when I recommend or set up a computer for someone, I at least harbor the hope that they may be able to figure it out for themselves, or even get help from somewhere else when they have minor problems. Therefore, I want to set them up with something that has lots of support available from lots of different places. If I gave them Linux, I surely would be "inheriting their support contract"... but, if I give them Windows, they can ask their friends at work, or find answers on the Internet... and, if they want to learn MS Office, they can take an adult-ed course, or buy a book. And, if their Windows computer breaks, and I'm on vacation that week, they can just go down to Best Buy and replace it. I really don't see much of any resources for Linux AT THE LEVEL OF A TOTAL BEGINNER. (Most of the people I know at least know whether they're using Windows 7 or Windows 10.... but most of them would give me a blank stare if I were to ask them "which distro and build" they were using.) My sentiments exactly...... Linux is fun and cool to play with...... But, if a friend came to me, told me they want to run the standard commercial apps, and wanted a computer they could have up and running in a few hours, with no extra fiddling around, I would have to go with Windows. And, not to be mean, but, if the cost isn't an issue, the commercial apps like PhotoShop and MS Word are really powerful, and worlds better than their free and open source counterparts. If a friend came to me and was asking for advice, I install linux for them Because I'm going to have to maintain the computer regardless, and it's far easier for me on linux. Excel and Word are quite good, but I doubt 95% of home usage actually needs to use them. LO works just fine. Heck, even google office is a better choice for most usage, and works equally well over the internet on windows/linux. Home users can barely import pics from their camera, let alone use something like photoshop. |
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Post by KeithL on Aug 9, 2017 15:39:02 GMT -5
Oddly, my experience is almost the exact opposite. Here are my two most recent Linux experiences.... 1) (Good). I installed Volumio on my Raspberry Pi - and it worked. 2) (Not so good). I installed one of the many distributions of Kodi on my Raspberry Pi - and then tried to configure it to deliver bit-perfect audio to my DC-1 at 24/192k The install itself went well - but it seemed to insist on resampling all the audio to one sample rate. Or, if I selected the option that should have delivered bit perfect audio, instead I got a nasty screechy noise. So, after finally figuring out what Linux distro the copy of Kodi I'd installed was based on I started looking. Two hours later, I'd found a dozen different suggestions that certain ALSA settings MIGHT solve the problem (but they didn't). After another two hours I concluded that "some people have noticed conflicts with some Linux builds and the C-Media USB interface chip in my DAC". Oddly, Linux support for one of the two most common USB interface chips on the planet is "spotty", and nobody has a Linux driver for it. Bottom line; after four hours I gave up.... there were a million places to look, and a million suggestions, but no straight answers. Now, just to be clear, I'm NOT saying that I haven't had plenty of equally bad experiences with Windows.... But I can sure say that those sorts of issues are decidedly NOT absent from Linux. Yes, "if Linux supports it then you just plug it in and it works". And, if Linux DOESN'T support it, then I guess you just throw it away. The problem there is that the list of what Windows "just supports" seems to be rather longer.... And, while Windows may well be more complicated, there seem to be a lot more people to ask when you can't figure something out. And, to be blunt, I would ask you to find a total newbie.... and tell them that, to install office on their Linux computer "all they have to do is download and install it". But be sure to be near your phone when they download a build that isn't compatible with the distro they have, or with the hardware they have, or is on the wrong build fork for what they want to do. In fact, you'd better be prepared to explain to them what a distro is when they get to the download page and see the list of options it offers. And help them figure out whether they have Mint, or Debian, or Red Hat, and which audio subsystem their particular machine has installed on it. I have YET to see a program that offers a single "Linux version" that works on all the different flavors of Linux - with NO modifications and NO manual configuration.. I don't disagree with your idea..... but I don't at all agree with your SCALE. There's a reason why almost no major companies use Linux on their desktops..... because, contrary to what you claim, it frequently DOESN'T "just work". (Big corporations are pretty good at minimizing their support costs - and most of them use Windows on the desktop rather than Linux.) I would also say that most of the wonderful things you've claimed for Linux are in fact true for Windows.... Most devices DO "just work when you plug them in" nowadays........ I'm also a little curious about where you find all that software that's guaranteed to work correctly, with no chance of malware, and a simple one-step install. (Half of the Linux apps I've tried don't even provide actual documentation.) Clearly this is a matter of context and perspective..... You can install Linux, Libre Office, and GIMP on a computer relatively easily... But I'm not convinced that installing Windows 7, MS Office, and PhotoShop would be any more difficult or likely to encounter problems. Both are dead simple if you're familiar with the process, and both can be tricky if there's something unusual about your machine. Believe it or not, I've tried VERY HARD to feel the way you do about Linux. I've always thought it would be handy to have something I can recommend to friends that's free and works well. The problem is that both the simplicity and the apps themselves always seem to fail to measure up to what I (and they) need. That's why I disagree with you - and consider Linux to be "a great O/S for tinkerers and power users - but not so good for beginners". However, obviously we can agree to disagree  Simplicty and minimal effort. I was running Win XP and switched to Linux (Ubuntu and later Mint) a number of years ago. Lot's of reading later I learned how to work it and get software/hardware installed d functioning. Overall I did like Linux. I gave Windows 7 a try a year or two later was wowed by how easy it was to install software/hardware and just overall management. I'm now on Windows 10 and the machine is running well. Now-a-days I just need something for email, chrome browser, MS Office (word, excel), Spotify, Emo Little Ego dac, printer, wireless network card (for desktop), and some other things. See this is what I don't get about windows fans; you can't possibly find windows 7 software easier to install than on linux, because linux has a software repository; you open up your package manager, search for the app, double click it and it installs. No hunting around on windows download sites or company websites, no trojans masquerading as real apps. And EVERYTHING is updated for you by the package manager; all your apps are installed and updated in one place. So it's a FACT that windows 7/10 is more work and effort and time to install and update your apps. You need to accept this because it makes you look silly to argue otherwise, kind of like saying you find it easier to bake your own bread instead of getting it delivered. Linux had this concept of "software store" already back in 1990's, long before the iphone and apple app store popularized the idea. Windows STILL doesn't have this to the same effect as it is on linux, 20 to 25 years later. Likewise with hardware; if linux supports it, you just plug it in and it works. You don't need to download and install 150 meg printer drivers; you plug your printer on, navigate to the printer control panel, and if linux supports your printer then it will detect it and configure it. No hassle. Plug in a new Microsoft/Logitech webcam, and it is IMMEDIATELY available for use. Plug in your android phone to a usb cable and boom, your picture software can immediately import the pics or you can browse the android drive through a filemanager. Nothing to install. Agreed that some hardware isn't supported AT ALL on linux, but that's a different story. But stick to common hardware and you are golden. |
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Post by copperpipe on Aug 9, 2017 16:23:37 GMT -5
Oddly, my experience is almost the exact opposite. And, while Windows may well be more complicated, there seem to be a lot more people to ask when you can't figure something out. Yeah, but look at the quality of help if I visit the ubuntu forum or reddit or superuser for help, I'm going to get it. Windows "help" is the blind leading the lame, generally because most linux users know what they're doing compared to most windows users. And, to be blunt, I would ask you to find a total newbie.... and tell them that, to install office on their Linux computer "all they have to do is download and install it". But be sure to be near your phone when they download a build that isn't compatible with the distro they have, or with the hardware they have, or is on the wrong build fork for what they want to do. In fact, you'd better be prepared to explain to them what a distro is when they get to the download page and see the list of options it offers. And help them figure out whether they have Mint, or Debian, or Red Hat, and which audio subsystem their particular machine has installed on it. I have YET to see a program that offers a single "Linux version" that works on all the different flavors of Linux - with NO modifications and NO manual configuration.. But the point you're missing is that you DON'T worry about any of that. When you install libreoffice (or any other normal linux application) on your linux computer, you open up the "linux store" application, type "libre office" and double click the result that appears. That's IT. You're done. You don't worry about which flavour or distro, the package manager knows all that and installs the correct version; AND keeps it up to date. Your package manager runs weekly in the background and then pops up with a message "these 10 apps/tools have updates available", you click "update" button, and boom, ALL your software is up to date. Windows has NOTHING on linux when it comes to this. At best you get windows updates and/or msft office updates, but you're left downloading and installing your own updates for the vast majority of windows software. I don't disagree with your idea..... but I don't at all agree with your SCALE. There's a reason why almost no major companies use Linux on their desktops..... because, contrary to what you claim, it frequently DOESN'T "just work". (Big corporations are pretty good at minimizing their support costs - and most of them use Windows on the desktop rather than Linux.) Again this comes down to training; it costs money to train a user to use linux when they're used to windows. It's that "momentum" issue, but it doesn't mean that windows is better to use. There are countless success stories of companies switching to linux and saving money. I'm also a little curious about where you find all that software that's guaranteed to work correctly, with no chance of malware, and a simple one-step install. (Half of the Linux apps I've tried don't even provide actual documentation.) You know how the iphone has a "app store" or whatever? You open the app store, search for an app, and install it? THAT is what we're talking about here, for linux; all the major distro's have an "app store" or "package manager" which takes care of installing and updating software. When you install LibreOffice, the package manager goes and downloads it from the correct site on the internet. The software in the repository is all signed with certificates, so you know that you're getting LibreOffice, and not somebody randomly jacking with your downloaded software. As for documentation, try open a terminal a type "man fdisk" or "man ls" or "man apt" etc etc. "man" is the command for "manual", and you get a ton of documetation, along with examples of how to use the software etc. That's why I disagree with you - and consider Linux to be "a great O/S for tinkerers and power users - but not so good for beginners". I actually find linux great for beginners (is it really hard to launch firefox/vlc/thunderbird from a menu in linux? No, not any different than on windows; and beginners aren't going to be doing any configuration either windows OR linux), tinkerers, and power users... it's actually the middle group which is more problematic; users who know how to point-and-click their way around windows, but heaven help you if you move an icon to a different spot on the desktop. Users who don't understand what their doing, but have memorized their way around. These people are hopeless on linux. Agreed that we've had different experiences with linux, but I've been using it since 2001 or so, and still have to keep up with windows due to my job. My "expertise" is just as good on windows as it is on linux, however "expert" it may be... but my point is that once you've given equal opportunity to learn and understand linux that you've given yourself for windows, you as a power user would probably prefer linux wherever possible. Comparing your 20+ years of windows expertise to 1 or 2 weeks of linux exploration, is a bit unfair... you weren't a windows expert from day 1 either. |
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Post by oldwood on Aug 13, 2017 10:09:19 GMT -5
These discussions about whether Driver Signature Enforcement is useful or a good idea are ridiculous. The fact is Windows has over 90% of the operating system market and they want the drivers signed. Jacking around with your system by disabling a security feature to accommodate a manufacturer who does not agree with decision of the people who write the software my computer runs on is just nonsensical.
Emotiva needs to supply a signed driver for their products that works with the operating system that 90% of the world runs on. I have a XDA-2 and can't use the USB output because of unsigned drivers. This is defective by design in my opinion. I am in the market for a new DAC but won't consider Emotiva because of this issue.
FWIW,
Gerry
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Post by bredick on Aug 14, 2017 13:27:56 GMT -5
Hmmmmmm...... First, yes, most people seem to have no problem with the native Windows 10 (CE) UAC2 driver. I just plugged mine in to confirm that it's still working fine. And it DOES run fine up to 24/192k (or higher with the Ego). I've run it on two computers that were updated to Windows 10 Creator's Edition.... and one that was fresh-installed with it.... with no problems at all. There are a few things that come to mind, however.... 1) Are you sure that you have the Creator's Edition? Apparently the Windows Creator's Edition is still not perfectly compatible with all hardware - and some computers aren't being offered the upgrade. (If so, then they will let you manually perform the update, but it will never show up as a recommended or "offered" update.) 1a) There may be issues with the drivers and some USB port hardware (it may be part of the "not compatible with some hardware" thing.) (The Windows driver works with our USB inputs - but that doesn't rule out issues between it and the hardware in your computer.) 2) I'm not exactly sure how Windows handles the choice of drivers. On one machine which originally had the Emotiva drivers, I removed them using Device Manager, and Windows automatically loaded its drivers when I plugged in the DAC. On another computer which I set up from scratch with Windows 10 CE, it just went out, found the drivers, and worked. 2a) While it sounds to me like you have an excellent handle on the order of things........ It is possible that Windows is installing a driver from somewhere else. Make sure that you specifically: 1 - plug in the DAC so Windows sees it and the driver loads 2 - go into Device Manager and tell it to remove/delete the driver 3 - unplug the DAC 4 - reboot the computer 5 - plug the DAC back in and wait for the driver to load 6 - if it asks if it should look on the Internet "for the latest driver" say NO(Windows SHOULD give preference to the internal driver - which should be the good one.) 3) Far and away the reason we usually see a DAC work, but refuse sample rates above 48k, is that the USB cable is too long... or there's some other sort of USB issue. This limitation is timing-related. Therefore, if you're using a long-ish cable, even if it worked last week, things could have changed (Windows internal timing could be slightly different after an update). Try a short cable and see if the problem goes away. 4) I agree that trying a different computer would be a good next step (it could be a problem with your DC-1 or computer itself). So KeithL , has the new windows native driver been working for people that have updated? At one point a while back Windows decided it didn't like the hack that made the EMO driver work anymore so I had to switch to the Schitt driver. Now suddenly I am not able to set sampling rates above 16/44.1 or 16/48, no more 24/192 or 32/192 that I have been able to use for the last year and a half. The windows 10 native driver just gives a code 10 and does not work at all, the EMO driver complains that it may have been tampered with and will not install even after disabling the integrity checking, the Schitt Driver is no longer allowing playback greater than 16/48. I've tried uninstalling all of the drivers and reinstalling each with multiple reboots in between, tried uninstalling the last month of windows updates, tried installing the insider updates, tried usb 2.0 ports, usb 3.0 ports... nothing is fixing it. I suppose the next step would be trying a different pc entirely to see it it is a hardware problem in the pc or the DC-1. Thank you for taking the time to address this KeithL, I have now tried a shorter cable, same results as my regular cable that is one of the Emotiva ones. I also tried another computer which has the creators update as well, it was even worse, the hardware was not detected at all, even after a reboot it did not show any new device in the device manager. I have sent a message through the website to support since it is starting to look like a hardware problem with my DC-1 at this point. |
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Post by garbulky on Aug 14, 2017 17:21:23 GMT -5
I don't understand this thing I've been reading. "If you disable driver signature just one time, you have to do it every time you boot."
That makes no sense to me. I've disabled driver signature several times in the past to install drivers and never encountered an issues where you have to disable it every boot. I only had to do it for the first time install. Is this something new?
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 16, 2017 15:55:13 GMT -5
At this point - you're sort of missing THE point. Until now, with 90% of the market, and customers asking for it for more than a decade, Microsoft still failed to provide support for a very widely used USB audio protocol (UAC2). Microsoft has now rectified this failing, and added internal support for UAC2 to Windows 10, so now drivers will no longer be necessary. (And that's true for all of our current and future UAC2 DACs and everyone else's.) At the time the XDA-2 was released, the majority of Windows computers shipped with Driver Signature Enforcement DISABLED... so no problem. Then, when Microsoft changed their policy to enable DSE by default on some Windows 7 machines, it remained simple to disable it... still no problem. Then, after the XDA-2 was long since discontinued, Microsoft again changed their policy to make it difficult (and sometimes impossible) to disable DSE on some machines. (Unfortunately, this change created a problem for some users.) Now, finally, Microsoft has decided to include the required drivers, which renders the entire question moot... so, again, no problem. In short, the XDA-2 worked fine with the version of Windows that was current when it was released. And it continued to work fine with Windows all the time it was a current product - with, at most, a minor workaround required by some users. All of our products, including the XDA-2, work perfectly right now with what is now the current version of Windows. (Since the driver is now part of Windows, we have no reason to suspect that this will ever cease to be true.) Of course, since we and Schiit use the same USB chip, and their driver works fine, feel free to use it. These discussions about whether Driver Signature Enforcement is useful or a good idea are ridiculous. The fact is Windows has over 90% of the operating system market and they want the drivers signed. Jacking around with your system by disabling a security feature to accommodate a manufacturer who does not agree with decision of the people who write the software my computer runs on is just nonsensical. Emotiva needs to supply a signed driver for their products that works with the operating system that 90% of the world runs on. I have a XDA-2 and can't use the USB output because of unsigned drivers. This is defective by design in my opinion. I am in the market for a new DAC but won't consider Emotiva because of this issue. FWIW, Gerry |
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Post by oldwood on Aug 18, 2017 8:27:25 GMT -5
The Dc-1 uses the same drivers as the XDA-2 and it is a current model. I don't know if the Big Ego drivers are signed but I suspect not.
Win7 still is about 49% in total use all operating systems currently in use. Win 7 requires signed drivers. Schiit has recognized this and supplied a signed driver for their customers and Emotiva has not.
I don't see where I have missed THE point.
Gerry
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Post by KeithL on Aug 18, 2017 10:54:06 GMT -5
In point of fact... When Windows 7 was first released, only a few 64 bit Windows 7 installs from a few vendors shipped with DSE enabled by default. Of the approximately half of Windows 7 machines that shipped with the 32 bit version installed, DSE was ALWAYS DISABLED by default. Of the approximately half that shipped with the 64 bit version, only certain few vendors enabled DSE by default. (In other words, DSE was NOT considered to be an "important" or "critical" security feature; and many vendors didn't bother to sign their drivers.) In those days, some drivers were signed, while others were not (anecdotally I would say about half and half). It's only in much more recent updates that Microsoft has decided to enable DSE by default (both in Windows 10 and as an update to Windows 7). I would also again remind everyone that the LATEST version of Windows 10, Windows 10 Creator's Edition, finally has UAC2 support built in.... So you won't need external drivers for it to work with any of our DACs. (So you don't need to worry about it at all - ever again.  ) Incidentally, regardless of how many people are still USING Windows 7, Microsoft officially ended "mainstream support" for it almost a year ago. Windows 7 is now under "extended/limited support", which means they aren't promising that it will run on current processors, or that it will continue to receive full security updates. (So, if you're going to worry about security, then the fact that Windows 7 is no longer fully supported with security updates anyway would seem like a more major issue.) All philosophical discussion aside... When we first released the current drivers DSE simply was not a significant issue... And, now that Windows 10 no longer needs drivers, it is again not a significant issue... (And we simply haven't issued new drivers during the time frame where it WAS a significant issue.) I think it's fair to say that we probably WILL NOT be issuing new drivers for any of our current products. I think it's also fair to say that any NEW drivers that we issue for new products will be signed. (We will still be issuing drivers for new products to provide legacy support for Windows 7 and Windows 10 Anniversary Edition and earlier.) And, yes, as far as I know the Big Ego drivers ARE in fact signed. The Dc-1 uses the same drivers as the XDA-2 and it is a current model. I don't know if the Big Ego drivers are signed but I suspect not. Win7 still is about 49% in total use all operating systems currently in use. Win 7 requires signed drivers. Schiit has recognized this and supplied a signed driver for their customers and Emotiva has not. I don't see where I have missed THE point. Gerry |
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Post by garbulky on Aug 18, 2017 11:30:32 GMT -5
Or you can do what I did if you have a PC with a old school PCI slot. Buy the Musiland Digital Times card for $60 ebay and get BNC (and coax and optical) capabilities. It's supposed to be a high quality digital only transport and I can confirm it works in Windows 10 64 bit. The drivers are hard to find but it is linked in the review emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/50430/musiland-digital-times-transport-review |
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Post by jherbert on Dec 24, 2017 6:30:45 GMT -5
Happy DC-1 user here, though I have to say that Windows native drivers simply did not work for me. Turned out it tries to play some seconds from each track and then skips to the next. Installing "legacy" drivers fixed the issue.
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Because I'm going to have to maintain the computer regardless, and it's far easier for me on linux. Excel and Word are quite good, but I doubt 95% of home usage actually needs to use them. LO works just fine. Heck, even google office is a better choice for most usage, and works equally well over the internet on windows/linux. Home users can barely import pics from their camera, let alone use something like photoshop.
)