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Post by Bonzo on Sept 7, 2017 12:17:07 GMT -5
(When you set up your system for Atmos, speaker distances are entered or measured, but the processor does NOT figure out the locations of the speakers; it simply expects each speaker to be in the standard location. Because of this, Atmos is NOT able to accommodate unusual speaker locations, or to calculate more accurate positions for individual objects if your speakers are in unusual positions. It simply assumes your speakers are in the standard positions, which is exactly the same assumption the mixing engineer uses to position things in the TrueHD mix...... ) Recently I was at our local theatre complex and the sound guy was setting up / checking one of the few Atmos enabled theatres with a number of microphones that looked like these;  I understand that they provide tridimensional speaker localisation, which possibly indicates that it is possible to account for non standard Atmos speaker locations? Cheers Gary Look who makes it. I wonder how much THAT thing costs? $10,000 probably. |
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Post by simpleman68 on Sept 7, 2017 12:35:28 GMT -5
Recently I was at our local theatre complex and the sound guy was setting up / checking one of the few Atmos enabled theatres with a number of microphones that looked like these; I understand that they provide tridimensional speaker localisation, which possibly indicates that it is possible to account for non standard Atmos speaker locations? Cheers Gary Look who makes it. I wonder how much THAT thing costs? $10,000 probably. $699 |
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Post by Bonzo on Sept 7, 2017 12:41:37 GMT -5
Look who makes it. I wonder how much THAT thing costs? $10,000 probably. $699 Good price for them, but still not exactly inexpensive. For that price I'd suggest people pool their money, by it, then share it around when they need it. Or just hire a professional set up guy who has one and be done with it. |
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Post by rbk123 on Sept 7, 2017 12:51:05 GMT -5
I understand that they provide tridimensional speaker localisation, which possibly indicates that it is possible to account for non standard Atmos speaker locations? Only tridimensional? I'll wait until they come out with the models that also account for the 4th and 5th dimensions. |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Sept 7, 2017 14:06:48 GMT -5
Using one microphone you can measure the distance from the measurement point to each speaker, but not position in 3D space (or angular position). (If you could use multiple microphones at the same time, you could take multiple readings and triangulate - but NOBODY does THAT.  ) Automatic room correction systems measure delay (or "acoustic distance") - but they don't measure actual physical position in space. That would require you to manually enter the position of each speaker on some sort of GUI - like a 3D drawing program. The only alternative would be if each speaker included some way to locate itself relative to its brethren and report its position to the processor. People have tried this in the past but I haven't heard anyone claiming to use it for an Atmos or DTS-X system. Does Atmos run some sort of program that sends signals through each speaker and a mic determines the location of the speaker? If not then I don't see how it can process anything based on where your speakers are located since it doesn't have that information. Even if it does use a mic to determine the position of your speakers, I don't see how making sound placement that much more specific is that critical. Height, yes, but placement of objects in space no, because that would also depend on where you are sitting. Unless you sit in the same exact sweet spot where the mic was, then all the calculations will be off since it has to be done from the speakers relative to your sitting position. Here's an example of echolocation software that can calculate position in 3D space, using 5 mics: www.newscientist.com/article/dn23709-echolocating-app-will-let-you-map-a-room-with-sound/Back when I was in the Navy, our submarine sonar systems could find fairly precise location in 3D space, but I think an array that occupied much of the nosecone of a submarine would be a bit imposing as an add-on to a home theater processor.  |
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Post by sebastianr on Sept 7, 2017 15:13:54 GMT -5
That's called, "Way back, play back" compatible. 😃 |
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Post by Bonzo on Jan 30, 2018 10:57:13 GMT -5
Okay, so we rented and watched the new Bladerunner Blu-ray last night and it had what I believe is a rarity in terms of sound options. Over the years I have bumped into certain DVD's and Blu-rays that offer both the Dolby version and the DTS version of the soundtrack on the same disc. Not often, but it does happen. Now on this Blade Runner disc, it has the option for Dolby Atmos or 7.1 DTS Master. Obviously Dolby Atmos is the latest greatest from them, but 7.1 DTS Master is now secondary. I was very curious to see which sounded better on my system. (From past experience, we much prefer DTS over Dolby in our room).
NOTE: I must point out here that very unfortunately, I'm still not running Atmos with height speakers. I've had all the equipment in my house for months now, but life at home has not allowed me the time to get it all installed. So my new processor and speakers are just sitting around collecting dust. Trust me, I'm not happy about it. But sometimes life isn't about what you want.
Knowing all that, I decided to watch the movie using the Atmos sound option. Since Dolby Atmos is backwards compatible, I figured what I would get is basically 7.1 Dolby True. At least that's what I should have gotten.
I have to say, while watching the movie this way, I found the sound field distracting. There was very little use of the surrounds (or at least less than I would have thought for this type of movie). The sound field was very much forward focused (forward as in the front of the room). And the sound stage itself was small and limited in nature. It was okay, but it most certainly was not top notch from what I have heard for other movies of this sort. I would also say that what I heard was much more directional in nature. Like it was more obvious that sound was in a certain speaker, which made the entire thing much less enveloping. And surprisingly, it was the deeper bass that I found most distracting, because it was almost obvious where it was coming from. I’ve not had that happen before so obviously. Over all, I just wasn't that impressed with it.
When the movie was over, I decided to go back and watch it using the 7.1 DTS Master setting. There was an instant difference. And I mean by quite a bit, so much so that my wife even called it out. The sound stage was huge, the surrounds were in full swing, the sound was totally enveloping in comparison, and the bass was uniform and blended within the room. I was able to use the POP Menu to easily switch sound tracks on the fly, and it quickly became very obvious that there were definitely very noticeable differences. I went on to watch the first 30 minutes of the movie again using the 7.1 DTS Master setting, and greatly preferred it.
So the question is, what was I hearing?
- Was it just our preference of DTS over Dolby standing out like a sore thumb?
- Was it that the Dolby Atmos mix was done in such a way that the backwards 7.1 Dolby True suffered ill effects?
- Was it that the Dolby Atmos mix was done in such a way that the bed layer for 7.1 Dolby True didn’t contain enough information because it was relegated to the height channels?
- Something else?
I dunno. That’s why I’m making this post. Any thoughts?
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Post by geebo on Jan 30, 2018 11:20:12 GMT -5
Okay, so we rented and watched the new Bladerunner Blu-ray last night and it had what I believe is a rarity in terms of sound options. Over the years I have bumped into certain DVD's and Blu-rays that offer both the Dolby version and the DTS version of the soundtrack on the same disc. Not often, but it does happen. Now on this Blade Runner disc, it has the option for Dolby Atmos or 7.1 DTS Master. Obviously Dolby Atmos is the latest greatest from them, but 7.1 DTS Master is now secondary. I was very curious to see which sounded better on my system. (From past experience, we much prefer DTS over Dolby in our room). NOTE: I must point out here that very unfortunately, I'm still not running Atmos with height speakers. I've had all the equipment in my house for months now, but life at home has not allowed me the time to get it all installed. So my new processor and speakers are just sitting around collecting dust. Trust me, I'm not happy about it. But sometimes life isn't about what you want. Knowing all that, I decided to watch the movie using the Atmos sound option. Since Dolby Atmos is backwards compatible, I figured what I would get is basically 7.1 Dolby True. At least that's what I should have gotten. I have to say, while watching the movie this way, I found the sound field distracting. There was very little use of the surrounds (or at least less than I would have thought for this type of movie). The sound field was very much forward focused (forward as in the front of the room). And the sound stage itself was small and limited in nature. It was okay, but it most certainly was not top notch from what I have heard for other movies of this sort. I would also say that what I heard was much more directional in nature. Like it was more obvious that sound was in a certain speaker, which made the entire thing much less enveloping. And surprisingly, it was the deeper bass that I found most distracting, because it was almost obvious where it was coming from. I’ve not had that happen before so obviously. Over all, I just wasn't that impressed with it. When the movie was over, I decided to go back and watch it using the 7.1 DTS Master setting. There was an instant difference. And I mean by quite a bit, so much so that my wife even called it out. The sound stage was huge, the surrounds were in full swing, the sound was totally enveloping in comparison, and the bass was uniform and blended within the room. I was able to use the POP Menu to easily switch sound tracks on the fly, and it quickly became very obvious that there were definitely very noticeable differences. I went on to watch the first 30 minutes of the movie again using the 7.1 DTS Master setting, and greatly preferred it. So the question is, what was I hearing? - Was it just our preference of DTS over Dolby standing out like a sore thumb? - Was it that the Dolby Atmos mix was done in such a way that the backwards 7.1 Dolby True suffered ill effects? - Was it that the Dolby Atmos mix was done in such a way that the bed layer for 7.1 Dolby True didn’t contain enough information because it was relegated to the height channels? - Something else? I dunno. That’s why I’m making this post. Any thoughts? I also picked the "recommended" Dolby Atmos track and was disappointed with the dialog. Was it better with the DTS MA track? |
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Post by Bonzo on Jan 30, 2018 11:29:49 GMT -5
I also picked the "recommended" Dolby Atmos track and was disappointed with the dialog. Was it better with the DTS MA track? Yes, I think it was. The first time through I had a bit of hard time understanding the big dude at the farm. During my second viewing using DTS I didn't have that issue. Like I said, I only re-watched the first 30 minutes or so though, where there isn't a ton of dialog. By that time it was after midnight so I had to go to bed. It's rental so we will return it today before going home. |
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Post by geebo on Jan 30, 2018 11:33:04 GMT -5
I also picked the "recommended" Dolby Atmos track and was disappointed with the dialog. Was it better with the DTS MA track? Yes, I think it was. The first time through I had a bit of hard time understanding the big dude at the farm. During my second viewing using DTS I didn't have that issue. Like I said, I only re-watched the first 30 minutes or so though, where there isn't a ton of dialog. By that time it was after midnight so I had to go to bed. It's rental so we will return it today before going home. Thanks. A few others had also reported difficult to understand dialog with this movie. I'm going to have to try it again with the DTS track. |
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Post by Bonzo on Jan 30, 2018 11:46:19 GMT -5
Yes, I think it was. The first time through I had a bit of hard time understanding the big dude at the farm. During my second viewing using DTS I didn't have that issue. Like I said, I only re-watched the first 30 minutes or so though, where there isn't a ton of dialog. By that time it was after midnight so I had to go to bed. It's rental so we will return it today before going home. Thanks. A few others had also reported difficult to understand dialog with this movie. I'm going to have to try it again with the DTS track. Please get back here with what you think. This isn't a movie I'd ever buy the disk for, so I'll be curious to hear what you have to say. One thing I also watched over about 5 times each was the very first fly over where his car/ship flies from back to front over your head. It was much more convincing, full bodied and enveloping with DTS. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 30, 2018 13:01:31 GMT -5
You need to remember that the Dolby and DTS sound tracks are physically different; they are essentially different masters of the same content. They COULD have been encoded from the same exact mix, or from an entirely different one, and that choice is entirely up to the folks who produced the disc. (They might have wanted both versions to sound the same - or they might have wanted to offer you two different-sounding options to choose from.) Likewise, as I understand things, the Dolby Atmos mix is based on the Dolby True HD mix........ When you play an Atmos recording on a non-Atmos system, or in a non-Atmos mode, you are playing the "core Dolby TrueHD audio mix". When you play that same recording with Atmos enabled, extra information included in the Atmos data stream is used to modify the core mix. In principle, both versions should include the same basic audio information, and there shouldn't be anything actually missing from the non-Atmos version. (The "general authoring guidelines" say that the Atmos mix should be able to be played in TrueHD without anything going missing.) However, not every mixing engineer follows the rules, and certainly not all the suggestions. (Think of it like a Stereo mix and a Mono mix; they should sound very similar - but they don't always.) For example, if a particular engineer feels that "Atmos makes things seem like they're zooming around too much"..... He might deliberately master his disc with a compressed sound stage.... "so, when Atmos spreads things out, it ends up sounding normal"..... Or, alternately, he might deliberately exaggerate the movement of various objects "to make a more exciting mix"..... TO PUT THINGS IN SIMPLEST TERMS:According to Dolby Labs, and everyone else, Dolby Atmos is backwards compatible with Dolby TrueHD. Now, obviously, if there were things present in the Atmos version of the sound track that were missing from the TrueHD version, then this would not be the case. Likewise, if the Atmos version and the TrueHd version were both decoded to 5.1 channels (which both support), and the result was significantly different, then this would also not be the case. For example, we cannot have dialog that is present in the Atmos version but is missing from the TrueHD version. A more general interpretation of this statement might be that "if an Atmos recording is played on a Dolby TrueHD system it should come out sounding good - and as close as possible to the mix engineer's intent". While every interpretation of this statement agrees that the Atmos version must play on a Dolby TrueHD system; there is no claim that the results will be IDENTICAL. And, yes, that does mean that, by creating a mix that is optimized to take advantage of the features of Atmos, the mix engineer may end up with a version that is less than optimal when played in TrueHD. (Although it definitely offers the guidance that his intent should be to produce a mix that works well for both.)
I'M AMENDING THIS TO ADD SOMETHING
From the information I have - specifically... - if you were to play the same Dolby Atmos encoded track on two processors - BOTH OF WHICH ARE CONFIGURED WITH 7.1 MAIN AND SURROUND SPEAKERS AND NO "ATMOS" HEIGHT OR WIDTH SPEAKERS - one of which supports only up to Dolby TrueHD - and the other of which supports both Dolby TrueHD and Atmos - neither will DO ANYTHING with the additional Atmos information, and the outputs of both will be the same - (nothing will be missing from the non-Atmos version or added to the Atmos version) Note that, if you have SEPARATE Atmos and non-Atmos versions, on different discs, they may well be different. Just as the Dolby and DTS versions on the same disc may be different. Okay, so we rented and watched the new Bladerunner Blu-ray last night and it had what I believe is a rarity in terms of sound options. Over the years I have bumped into certain DVD's and Blu-rays that offer both the Dolby version and the DTS version of the soundtrack on the same disc. Not often, but it does happen. Now on this Blade Runner disc, it has the option for Dolby Atmos or 7.1 DTS Master. Obviously Dolby Atmos is the latest greatest from them, but 7.1 DTS Master is now secondary. I was very curious to see which sounded better on my system. (From past experience, we much prefer DTS over Dolby in our room). NOTE: I must point out here that very unfortunately, I'm still not running Atmos with height speakers. I've had all the equipment in my house for months now, but life at home has not allowed me the time to get it all installed. So my new processor and speakers are just sitting around collecting dust. Trust me, I'm not happy about it. But sometimes life isn't about what you want. Knowing all that, I decided to watch the movie using the Atmos sound option. Since Dolby Atmos is backwards compatible, I figured what I would get is basically 7.1 Dolby True. At least that's what I should have gotten. I have to say, while watching the movie this way, I found the sound field distracting. There was very little use of the surrounds (or at least less than I would have thought for this type of movie). The sound field was very much forward focused (forward as in the front of the room). And the sound stage itself was small and limited in nature. It was okay, but it most certainly was not top notch from what I have heard for other movies of this sort. I would also say that what I heard was much more directional in nature. Like it was more obvious that sound was in a certain speaker, which made the entire thing much less enveloping. And surprisingly, it was the deeper bass that I found most distracting, because it was almost obvious where it was coming from. I’ve not had that happen before so obviously. Over all, I just wasn't that impressed with it. When the movie was over, I decided to go back and watch it using the 7.1 DTS Master setting. There was an instant difference. And I mean by quite a bit, so much so that my wife even called it out. The sound stage was huge, the surrounds were in full swing, the sound was totally enveloping in comparison, and the bass was uniform and blended within the room. I was able to use the POP Menu to easily switch sound tracks on the fly, and it quickly became very obvious that there were definitely very noticeable differences. I went on to watch the first 30 minutes of the movie again using the 7.1 DTS Master setting, and greatly preferred it. So the question is, what was I hearing? - Was it just our preference of DTS over Dolby standing out like a sore thumb? - Was it that the Dolby Atmos mix was done in such a way that the backwards 7.1 Dolby True suffered ill effects? - Was it that the Dolby Atmos mix was done in such a way that the bed layer for 7.1 Dolby True didn’t contain enough information because it was relegated to the height channels? - Something else? I dunno. That’s why I’m making this post. Any thoughts? |
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Jan 30, 2018 14:00:17 GMT -5
Okay, so we rented and watched the new Bladerunner Blu-ray last night and it had what I believe is a rarity in terms of sound options. Over the years I have bumped into certain DVD's and Blu-rays that offer both the Dolby version and the DTS version of the soundtrack on the same disc. Not often, but it does happen. Now on this Blade Runner disc, it has the option for Dolby Atmos or 7.1 DTS Master. Obviously Dolby Atmos is the latest greatest from them, but 7.1 DTS Master is now secondary. I was very curious to see which sounded better on my system. (From past experience, we much prefer DTS over Dolby in our room). NOTE: I must point out here that very unfortunately, I'm still not running Atmos with height speakers. I've had all the equipment in my house for months now, but life at home has not allowed me the time to get it all installed. So my new processor and speakers are just sitting around collecting dust. Trust me, I'm not happy about it. But sometimes life isn't about what you want. Knowing all that, I decided to watch the movie using the Atmos sound option. Since Dolby Atmos is backwards compatible, I figured what I would get is basically 7.1 Dolby True. At least that's what I should have gotten. I have to say, while watching the movie this way, I found the sound field distracting. There was very little use of the surrounds (or at least less than I would have thought for this type of movie). The sound field was very much forward focused (forward as in the front of the room). And the sound stage itself was small and limited in nature. It was okay, but it most certainly was not top notch from what I have heard for other movies of this sort. I would also say that what I heard was much more directional in nature. Like it was more obvious that sound was in a certain speaker, which made the entire thing much less enveloping. And surprisingly, it was the deeper bass that I found most distracting, because it was almost obvious where it was coming from. I’ve not had that happen before so obviously. Over all, I just wasn't that impressed with it. When the movie was over, I decided to go back and watch it using the 7.1 DTS Master setting. There was an instant difference. And I mean by quite a bit, so much so that my wife even called it out. The sound stage was huge, the surrounds were in full swing, the sound was totally enveloping in comparison, and the bass was uniform and blended within the room. I was able to use the POP Menu to easily switch sound tracks on the fly, and it quickly became very obvious that there were definitely very noticeable differences. I went on to watch the first 30 minutes of the movie again using the 7.1 DTS Master setting, and greatly preferred it. So the question is, what was I hearing? - Was it just our preference of DTS over Dolby standing out like a sore thumb? - Was it that the Dolby Atmos mix was done in such a way that the backwards 7.1 Dolby True suffered ill effects? - Was it that the Dolby Atmos mix was done in such a way that the bed layer for 7.1 Dolby True didn’t contain enough information because it was relegated to the height channels? - Something else? I dunno. That’s why I’m making this post. Any thoughts? I personally found the Dolby Atmos track to be superior to the DTS-HD MA 5.1 track(and it is a DTS-HD MA 5.1 track on my UHD blu-ray, not 7.1). |
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Jan 30, 2018 14:10:19 GMT -5
Yes, I think it was. The first time through I had a bit of hard time understanding the big dude at the farm. During my second viewing using DTS I didn't have that issue. Like I said, I only re-watched the first 30 minutes or so though, where there isn't a ton of dialog. By that time it was after midnight so I had to go to bed. It's rental so we will return it today before going home. Thanks. A few others had also reported difficult to understand dialog with this movie. I'm going to have to try it again with the DTS track. Not sure if you've updated your Oppo UDP-203 to the latest public firmware, but there is a fix in it for a playback issue with this particular UHD blu-ray. Not sure what it fixes but maybe it addressed this issue. |
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Post by Bonzo on Jan 30, 2018 14:10:21 GMT -5
I personally found the Dolby Atmos track to be superior to the DTS-HD MA 5.1 track Interesting. So this brings me back to system differences and preferences. As I said before, throughout the years I have almost always found I prefer the DTS soundtracks to Dolby ones. Gotta wonder. I'm almost certain the Red box Blu-ray said DTS-Master 7.1, but I could absolutely be wrong. That would make it even more interesting, if it was 5.1, considering it sounded so much better. |
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Post by Bonzo on Jan 30, 2018 14:15:03 GMT -5
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 30, 2018 14:17:31 GMT -5
You should also note that, from what I've heard, Red Box discs are quite often different than the commercial release.... (They often have fewer, or just plain different, audio options.) Also, as most of us well know, even different versions of the same commercial movie disc sometimes have different audio options. I personally found the Dolby Atmos track to be superior to the DTS-HD MA 5.1 track Interesting. So this brings me back to system differences and preferences. As I said before, throughout the years I have almost always found I prefer the DTS soundtracks to Dolby ones. Gotta wonder. I'm almost certain the Red box Blu-ray said DTS-Master 7.1, but I could absolutely be wrong. That would make it even more interesting, if it was 5.1, considering it sounded so much better. |
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Post by Bonzo on Jan 30, 2018 14:21:59 GMT -5
You should also note that, from what I've heard, Red Box discs are quite often different than the commercial release.... (They often have fewer, or just plain different, audio options.) Also, as most of us well know, even different versions of the same commercial movie disc sometimes have different audio options. Definitely. They certainly do. But I'm thinking I just looked too fast last night, because I doubt the standard one you buy from Amazon has DTS 5.1 while the Red Box one has 7.1. I'm really surprised I even had the option to pick. |
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Post by geebo on Jan 30, 2018 14:23:03 GMT -5
Thanks. A few others had also reported difficult to understand dialog with this movie. I'm going to have to try it again with the DTS track. Not sure if you've updated your Oppo UDP-203 to the latest public firmware, but there is a fix in it for a playback issue with this particular UHD blu-ray. Not sure what it fixes but maybe it addressed this issue. Thanks, I had already gotten the firmware. Not sure what the issues were with that disc but it played fine other than the less than optimal dialog. |
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Post by graphic on Jan 30, 2018 16:57:27 GMT -5
As someone mentioned, you can punch up the Dialog “object” ? Which I have defaulted to +2 dB on my 5.1.4 system. I found the sound almost overwhelming. VERY immersive, but a bit lacking in directionality.
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