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Post by leonski on Mar 16, 2017 21:47:51 GMT -5
I'd go for 10 or 12 gauge. Count me in for about 25 feet. Boomzilla Another 50 feet and we get to the 'price break' for the Belden 83803. 1 foot is 12.65$ or so while at 100feet, the price DROPS to 9.80$ per foot. a substantial savings of Over 20% per foot. 25X $9.65 = 241$ than add MY tax (8%) and shipping. Maybe 270$ for 25 feet. A LOT, but for the dedicated DIY, guy, peanuts. You're on your own for connectors, unless somebody else would like to organize THAT one. I'll take 4 plugs and sockets. I'm up for 25' myself, which will be 4 new cords. 1 each for 2amps, 1 for my power conditioner and a 4th? I'll worry about that one, later. |
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Post by jackpine on Mar 16, 2017 22:02:58 GMT -5
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Post by vcautokid on Mar 16, 2017 22:24:36 GMT -5
Finally someone who is not foisting a $10000.00 Power Cable. Sensible, and very welcome. Way cool.
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Post by RichGuy on Mar 16, 2017 22:41:27 GMT -5
Edit: I did not notice your link, the optional accessory shielded power cords Emotiva sells are 12 gauge, you can see this if you click on Features on its product page. I believe all my Emotiva products I've purchased XPA-2, XPA-5, XPA-3, XSP-1 and XMC-1 all came with 16 gauge power cords but there may have been a 14 gauge in the mix. I made my own shielded 14 gauge power cords for all of my Emotiva gear. Home wiring 15 amp circuits require a minimum 14 gauge wire. The max watts on a 15 amp circuit is 15X120 = 1800 watts. The max continuous load should not exceed 80%, which is 12 amps or 1440 watts. This is plenty for most AV systems. Home wiring for 20 amp circuits (20 amp breakers) require 12 gauge minimum. wire. Note this is minimum requirement for the in wall wiring not power cords and using a larger gauge power cord than your in wall wiring will be of no benefit at all. |
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Post by dougport on Mar 16, 2017 23:02:57 GMT -5
Both Amazon and Hifi Heaven in their item discription show the x iec cable as 12 gauge. Below is from Amazon Features Universal 3-wire IEC power cord works with 2 or 3 prong IEC connectors Gold plated 15 Amp commercial grade connectors 12 gauge oxygen free copper conductors (105 strand x 3) 100% shielding and nylon braided anti-scuff jacket Full five-year warranty. |
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Post by 405x5 on Mar 16, 2017 23:55:43 GMT -5
"The factory power cord has no shielding and provides absolutely no protection at all from electronic interference, no protection from electronic noise from the power cord to other cables in your system and no protection from electronic noise being picked up by its wires and being brought into your system. The factory power cord can actually act as an antenna to bring RFI/EMI noise into your system. A power cord built with quality shielded wire does offer protection from RFI/EMI noise." If all of the wires near and around the main power cable are well insulated and high quality, allowing no electronic interference, why does the power cable need to be scrapped. You are discounting all of the other high quality connections that are back there, quite simply. I don't know, I turn my system up high or low and hear not a peep, not a hiss or hum.......nothing but music and even at ear bleed levels if you pause, there is nothing and I mean NOTHING. "The factory power cord comes in one length and it is usually either too long or too short for the ideal length needed. A custom made power cord can be built to the exact length needed, 18 inches, 18 feet or whatever length works best." Never had a problem there but of course there can be a need for custom lengths at times.....at least that one is a very valid reason indeed for custom. "Quality connectors are better than the factory molded plugs, they normally last longer and can have a better snugger fit as well as the ability to be removed to make any adjustments, etc." So we agree to disagree on that one for sure..... Factory molded plugs are superior. All of mine fit snug and perfect. Don't know what you mean about lasting longer.......in normal use they should last a lifetime. "Custom power cords can also be an attractive addition and look nicer than the factory supplied power cord." uh.....well..........OK! Bill |
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Post by RichGuy on Mar 17, 2017 1:16:51 GMT -5
"The factory power cord has no shielding and provides absolutely no protection at all from electronic interference, no protection from electronic noise from the power cord to other cables in your system and no protection from electronic noise being picked up by its wires and being brought into your system. The factory power cord can actually act as an antenna to bring RFI/EMI noise into your system. A power cord built with quality shielded wire does offer protection from RFI/EMI noise." If all of the wires near and around the main power cable are well insulated and high quality, allowing no electronic interference, why does the power cable need to be scrapped. You are discounting all of the other high quality connections that are back there, quite simply. I don't know, I turn my system up high or low and hear not a peep, not a hiss or hum.......nothing but music and even at ear bleed levels if you pause, there is nothing and I mean NOTHING. "The factory power cord comes in one length and it is usually either too long or too short for the ideal length needed. A custom made power cord can be built to the exact length needed, 18 inches, 18 feet or whatever length works best." Never had a problem there but of course there can be a need for custom lengths at times.....at least that one is a very valid reason indeed for custom. "Quality connectors are better than the factory molded plugs, they normally last longer and can have a better snugger fit as well as the ability to be removed to make any adjustments, etc." So we agree to disagree on that one for sure..... Factory molded plugs are superior. All of mine fit snug and perfect. Don't know what you mean about lasting longer.......in normal use they should last a lifetime. "Custom power cords can also be an attractive addition and look nicer than the factory supplied power cord." uh.....well..........OK! Bill If you have no EMI/RFI noise your system will remain quiet however if you ever do have any EMI/RFI noise your insulted factory cords have no noise protection, none at all, insulation is not for this and no matter the condition it has no noise protection. Insulation and shielding have two totally different functions in wire design, they serve totally different purposes. Also it is possible to have extremely slight noise that you do not even realize is there, but eliminating it can make an improvement in overall clarity. The best gear has some of the best internal shielding in its design. No one is saying factory power cords are not usually good they normally are well made, but that does not mean they can't be improved upon if you wish to improve them. You act like shielding is some sort of hocus pocus, shielding is used as noise protection throughout your system in many ways and better systems have the best noise shielding. If you are happy with your molded plugs fine, I like my Marinco Hospital grade plugs more than any factory molded plug on any cord I've ever owned and I like the quality fit, feel and look. These are not silly overpriced audiophile plugs, just high grade quality electrical. |
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nrde
Minor Hero
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Post by nrde on Mar 17, 2017 4:36:43 GMT -5
Wrong period. The factory power cord has no shielding and provides absolutely no protection at all from electronic interference, no protection from electronic noise from the power cord to other cables in your system and no protection from electronic noise being picked up by its wires and being brought into your system. If your system doesn't filter out the interference in electricity, you have a poor power supply. Signal cables should/could be shielded or balanced, but power cables don't need it. Have you any source where it has been measured that interference to signal cables (or to anything) are coming from a power cable? I have about 20 power cables and extension cords in my living room, none of which a re shielded. I have no related interference in my hi-fi equipment. Or am I missing something? |
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Post by 405x5 on Mar 17, 2017 9:46:12 GMT -5
"Insulation and shielding have two totally different functions in wire design, they serve totally different purposes." Yes I'm aware of that of course.....sorry I did not make the distinction earlier........unfortunately, I have many more years of experience in dealing with radio interference (multipath in particular) than I ever wanted. Fortunately, those days are over. Straight out my front door, about 2 miles as the crow flies, is the radio tower for my towns local radio station. They play bubble gum pop music, and I was struggling to pull in the two closest jazz stations which came from 180 degrees in the opposite direction. Additionally, both of those were many miles farther away. Shielding aside (which was addressed of course) I worked the problem source using a dedicated FM roof antenna with a rotor system. It was a never ending "tweak" to rotate to that sweet spot, which was somewhat of a compromise between signal strength and multipath distortion...but it worked well enough for those days. I live in an "FM dead zone", so thank goodness for the digital age, streaming broadcasts, etc. "The best gear has some of the best internal shielding in its design" Now you're talking! I totally agree. I have found the addition of the XMC 1 to be the ultimate "insulator" for these types of problems. Bill |
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Post by RichGuy on Mar 17, 2017 10:18:28 GMT -5
Or am I missing something? Possibly a slight bit of detail, its just a matter of making that extra little effort to get the best from your system by doing extra protection from unwanted noise. The blacker the noise floor the more overall clarity a system can have. Shielding is used extensively on many levels throughout AV systems. From Marantz on their flagship PM-11S3 "Weighing in at just under 59 pounds, the PM-11S3 features a new chassis design with beautiful casework that includes a new 5mm thick solid aluminum top panel for maximum chassis rigidity that allows additional components to be stacked on top. The chassis also features a dual layer bottom panel for additional strengthening, and all internal chassis surfaces are copper plated for maximum resistance to RF and electrically induced interference" Manufacturers use shielding inside and outside of your system to control RFI/EMI, the chassis itself is a shield and often has features to provide extra shielding, yes Emotiva uses this and has extra internal shielding in their chassis design. Some expensive gear includes shielded power cables, Emotiva sells a shielded power cable in their accessories. Your system already uses shielding, shielding power cables is just an extra effort to reduce unwanted noise from a system, unwanted noise happens on several levels obvious static which is pretty much controlled in modern systems but also mostly undetectable noise you do not even realize is there yet removing it improves the overall clarity a system can achieve. It's very simple either use a shielded power cable if you wish or don't if you don't want to, the choice is yours just as the choice to upgrade or use any other part of your system is, most people wont want to bother with them, but yes some of us do. |
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Post by leonski on Mar 17, 2017 13:00:42 GMT -5
Speaking to 'shielding'?
Don't Toroidal Transformers INHERENTLY reject RFI? That's to the good, of course.
But other parts of a Circuit can act as an antenna. With audible results.
As for 'undetectable noise'? Exactly. This is what I noted when I first installed a power conditioner. Nothing 'obvious' or 'in your face', but man, what an improvement.
And RichGuy, above, writes,
QUOTE:
'I believe all my Emotiva products I've purchased XPA-2, XPA-5, XPA-3, XSP-1 and XMC-1 all came with 16 gauge power cords but there may have been a 14 gauge in the mix.'
IMO, for the highest powered amps in the line, 16ga is at least one size too small. An XPR-1 which comes with a 20 amp connector? Should have 12ga from the factory.
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Post by 405x5 on Mar 17, 2017 16:57:36 GMT -5
"Even less likely to improve sound than replacement speaker wire is after-market AC power cords and most other power “conditioner” products. The sales claims seem reasonable: Noise and static can get into your gear through the power line and degrade sound quality. In severe cases it’s possible for power-related clicks and buzzes to get into your system, but those are easily noticed. The suggestion that power products subtly increase “clarity and presence” is plain fraud.
Indeed, every competent circuit designer knows how to filter out power line noise, and such protection is routinely added to all professional and consumer audio products. Buying a six-foot replacement power cord ignores the other hundred-odd feet of regular AC wiring between the wall outlet and power pole."
Nice excerpt quoted from: The Audio Expert, Part 3: Common Audio Myths
By Ethan Winer • June 29, 2012
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Post by leonski on Mar 17, 2017 18:57:21 GMT -5
I feel bad for 'ya, #405.
My power conditioner made a substantial improvement in the sound of my stereo AND my TV at the time, a Panasonic 36" CRT model (over 100lb) had ALL the little 'flecks' removed from the picture.
when turning the source off, the screen went jet black. NO Snow whatsoever.
My sound changed, too. My Magnepans had to be reoriented, the sound appearing from a Jet Black background. I had to 'pop my ears'.
Imaging and dynamics were helped across the board.
The change was NOT subtle, once you just SAT and listened and Viewed.
A Side Effect from my power condition is 2-fold.
First? It has a 400 VA Isolation Transformer. All digitial and Low Current gear benefits from this addition. Balanced power is part of the deal:
Second? Power conditioners also typically include Surge Suppression. Mine also cuts off the circuits when the line voltage goes ABOVE about 135vac or below about 95vac.
The help given my TV was the clue. The same 'snow' which infested my TV must almost assuredly been in the Stereo, too. Most notable by its Absence.
I will categorically state that your 'expert' is on the wrong (3rd) rail.
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Post by RichGuy on Mar 17, 2017 19:12:30 GMT -5
Buying a six-foot replacement power cord ignores the other hundred-odd feet of regular AC wiring between the wall outlet and power pole." Except that hundred-odd feet is 1. Running before your power conditioner, while shielded power cables are used after it. 2. Inside your walls or outside your home, not running beside your equipment and other cables in your system which is where shielding becomes useful. I agree exotic material, large gauge overpriced audiophile power cables don't do anything. However quality shielding helps keep EMI/RFI noise out of your system. It's not silly voodoo magic, just better engineering. Most interconnects use shielding, some much better than others. Speaker wires normally do not use shielding as shielding can hinder their performance, though designs in wire such as twisted pair can help in ways to protect speaker wires from picking up unwanted noise as well as also having your other wires shielded which helps to protect them. Original power cables are usually not shielded, although as the equipments price increases shielded power cables becomes more & more common. Equipment itself is shielded, usually by the chassis and its design and often with extra panels used as shields to protect the most sensitive electronics. Normally the higher end product lines use the most shielding technics. |
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Post by 405x5 on Mar 17, 2017 20:15:06 GMT -5
"I feel bad for 'ya, #405." Gee! Thanks for that (I feel better already) What I really need is a big sloppy kiss!  |
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Post by leonski on Mar 17, 2017 22:01:32 GMT -5
Can we just call 'ya #2025?
No, Sorry, Simians are not my type.
However, it IS possible, perhaps, to TEST some of the nuttier aspects of your belief system.
Which, BTW, doesn't conform to a very large %age (maybe a majority?) of HiFi Users.
My experience is not unique.
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nrde
Minor Hero
Posts: 62
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Post by nrde on Mar 17, 2017 22:07:40 GMT -5
I want to make clear that I don't want to insult or downplay your experiences, it may be there really is something different when power cords are changed, I'm just so inexperienced with this hobby that I most likely get 100x more improvements with other changes to my system before I could tell any difference between power cords. Buying a six-foot replacement power cord ignores the other hundred-odd feet of regular AC wiring between the wall outlet and power pole." Except that hundred-odd feet is 1. Running before your power conditioner, while shielded power cables are used after it. What does a "power conditioner" do actually? All metallic cases make a faraday cage effectively blocking most/all interference. Be it close or far from the case. As for the power cable acting as antenna, a bigger case act's already as a bigger "antenna" than the cord. Look above. Also the power source of your device already filters the electricity for its use. Not my experience. I don't really pay attention to that, maybe they are all good enough for my use in any case? How? Again, how? Twisted pair is well know easy way to reduce crosstalk and induction. Bus as electromagetic fields don't "carry" too far, I have impression its effect for speaker cables is not so important. Well it's one justification for the higher price. Yes, and that shielding is sufficient for interference from the power cable. For what equipment are you using the shielded powercables? Also you mentioned Marantz top end equipment being copper plated inside. How does that relate to power cords? I don't mind if you think your system sounds better with fancy power cable, if it does it probably means there was something wrong with it in the first place or maybe there is some fancy psychological explanation. But I'm open to be educated, although I tend to believe at least slightly scientific explanation how shielding would help. Successful blind axb test would also help. Anyway, I can't rule out some people may be able to hear differences between different power cables. But I also think I couldn't trust my own senses in many cases. I'm not objective when it comes to "open" testing, blind test makes me a lot objective for some odd reason  |
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Post by leonski on Mar 18, 2017 0:49:22 GMT -5
Double Blind ABX testing is such a controversial subject that MANY forums simply BAN its mention. Most people think it is a 'panacea' for determining differences between equipment, but the problem is Vastly more complex than most could imagine.
Setting up such experiments is Very Costly, quite time consuming and subject to one detail after another mattering.
Results are always subject to debate.
Perhaps I wasn't clear. When I said test, a couple posts up, I meant that if you have a curiousity about various tweeks, than you should be the one to test it.
Most less experienced audiophiles would never experiment with various Crystals. Or some of the incredible vibration suppression systems available. Or even with a set of speaker crossover capacitors costing in the Thousands.
Some Tube guys keep multiple sets of tubes available. Tube Rolling? But it's the SAME darn tube! Want to hear a real nutty one? How about spending 50$ for an AudioPhile Fuse! Test which way it goes in the holder to determine
proper orientation. This of course, on AC current.
I'd love to experiment with a Schumann Resonance Device which emits a low amplitude signal at about 7.83hz, which is a not only a very low Earth resonance, but a very low frequency of human brain wave activity. I'll leave it to the curious
to look up the relationship between this frequency and listening enjoyment. Some sacred spaces are apparently designed with this principle in mind.
Still think power cords are the last word in weirdness?
nrde makes a valid point. Setup IS key.
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Post by 405x5 on Mar 18, 2017 7:36:35 GMT -5
I must test my theory, Captain.....
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