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Post by Bonzo on Apr 11, 2017 11:36:38 GMT -5
There was a thread a while back where several people including Keith answered a lot of these questions, but I can't find it. I thought I bookmarked it but can't seem to find it now. I thought I even e-mailed myself a link but can't find that either. EEERRRRRRRRR!!!! Slap myself upside the head. I'm not a super computer geek, so while I know some things, I'm FAR FAR FAR away from being any kind of guru. I just don't like computers enough to normally care. I can generally get things running, but that's about it. And I've never done the whole digital music computer streaming thing, so I'm looking for guidance. My house is basically a one story 100 feet long ranch, with complete attic access basically anywhere in the house (with a few exceptions). The incoming internet cable is at the one end, with the modem / router & computer(s) down there in the office. The TV / stereo and main place we hang out with our wireless devices is clear at the other end of the house. I want to hard wire everything I can so it all runs faster and better etc (without losing connection like our TV and DirecTV do now), and also be able to access music from my computer from the other end of the house. The easiest thing for me to do is to buy like 1000 feet of CAT6, cut it into like 10 pieces at 100 feet each, and then just run them all together at the same time. I think this would allow for darned near any kind of future connection, and allow me to have a switch where ever I need it. But that's money I may not need to spend. How would you do it if it were your house? If I had the option to move the modem/router down close to the TV, and then run the long wires back to the computer, would this help, make it worse, make no difference, still allow for networking music etc? Is it better to have a switch close to the modem and run multiple wires to other places, or can I run one wire and put a switch at the end? I'm sure I have more questions that I don't even know to ask. I'd just like to buy all the stuff I need, and go through the process of hooking it all up one time, now, ONCE, and be as future proof as possible so I don't have to do it again in the near future. I'm thinking I should be able to do it all myself, but if professional installation is better, that would be helpful to know too. Thanks for any advice / help you have time to give. Cheers ---- Bonzo
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Post by Casey Leedom on Apr 11, 2017 12:13:22 GMT -5
Well, first, I'd go with CAT5e. Simply pulling CAT6 wire won't actually pass CAT6 standards unless you run it very carefully. There are certain standards for minimum curvature of bends, etc. And, CAT5e gets you plenty of bandwidth and the cable and certified CAT5e equipment are cheaper. Just get every switch 1Gb/s and life will be good.
Second, decide where in each room you're liable to want to place heavy bandwidth equipment like TVs, Music Servers, Music Clients, etc. and set up a plan for putting RJ45 Terminal Drops in each of those locations. Note that I mentioned "heavy bandwidth equipment". I wired my entire apartment, with multiple drops in some locations (more on this below). But I've honestly almost never used any of the drops other than the one where the Music Server is located in a closet on the second floor and the one immediately behind the Music Client behind the stereo in my downstairs Living Room. For everything else, wireless works great and is far more convenient. It does pay to buy a Really Nice Wireless Access Point! (I'm currently using the ASUS RT-AC68U which I love and is now only about $150.)
You could run multiple CAT5e lines to the RJ45 terminals, but it's really not necessary unless you want to eventually have a managed network where you can monitor/control each individual endpoint. A single drop can support multiple pieces of Ethernet Equipment with a fairly cheap 1Gb/s Ethernet Switch. But, if you like, CAT5e cable and termination is cheap, so go ahead with multiple drops if you it floats your boat. It's also nearly the same effort when you consider the agony of crawling under the house/in the attic.
For network architecture, the easiest and simplest for most houses is a "Hub and Spoke" where you pick a single location for your Data Closet and run all the CAT5e to that location. They should be terminated into an RJ45 Patch Panel which makes it easy to patch individual lines into your 1Gb/s Ethernet Switch. In my case, this is a downstairs Hallway Closet which is centrally located and I have my Cable Modem there, my Wireless Router/Firewall, my 16-Port 1Gb/s Ethernet Switch, and a small UPS to keep everything powered up during brief power outages. But one could also have the Cable Modem located close to the "DEMARK" (where the Cable Drop comes into the house) and then run CAT5e from there to a location where the Wireless Router/Firewall lives, and then run CAT5e from there to the central 1Gb/s Ethernet Switch. It all just depends on how your house is laid out, where the Cable comes in, where you can find centrally located closets, where it's easiest to draw lots of Room Terminated CAT5e runs into, etc.
One final comment on Wireless Access Points. If your house is Really Freaking Spread out or has lots of floors or has significant interference in the walls (lots of metal), you may want to consider one of the more expensive Wireless systems which support multiple Wireless Access Points. And, if that's the case, you'll be wanting to run CAT5e to each of those points.
Casey
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jlafrenz
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Post by jlafrenz on Apr 11, 2017 12:21:10 GMT -5
You are on the right track with hard wiring everything. Wireless is getting better everyday, but I don't feel that it is as good as hard wired or a good main plan. It is a great back up plan. Centralized is always good for equipment and cable runs, but take into consideration where the service out of the house is already ran. Running wires inside a house with attic access is fairly easy compared to trying to get new wires outside the house for service. This is dependent on each house. Do you have a media panel in the garage? Without knowing the exact lay of your floor plan here are the basics of what you will want to do. Pick an interior wall so that it is easy to fish wire up into the attic. Cut in a hole the size of a 2 gang box. Be sure to use an orange box, not a blue one. If you need guidance on cutting this in, I can help you. I may even be able to do a tutorial if that would help. www.homedepot.com/p/2-Gang-Low-Voltage-Mounting-Bracket-SC200RR/202077405You will want to find the stud bay in the attic above where you box it. Drill a couple of 1 inch holes straight down. You will want an auger bit for this or even a spade bit. Pick yourself up some fish sticks from Harbor Freight. www.harborfreight.com/3-16-inch-x-33-ft-fiberglass-wire-running-kit-65326.htmlGet a box or reel of wire. Don't cut pre made sections as you will have waste and find that you may not have the proper length. Boxes of Cat6 are designed to be pulled from the box. From the attic, drop your sticks down the wall so that they are able to be seen from your cut in. Leave some slack up in the attic so you can pull the sticks out of the cut in you made. Tape a Cat6 in line to the sticks and pull them up the wall and it will pull your cable with it. To drop it down the wall you will want to repeat the same process you have already done above with the cut in box. I would opt for a single gang here unless you are going to have several wires. If you are pulling to existing locations where there is cable or phone, these locations will be easier to find. You may discover that whoever wired your house used blue boxex (electrical) for your low voltage. If so, you will want to cut them out to access the new wire from above. It is a pain to pull a new wire through a blue box especially if the existing wires are stapled to the stud. As far as location of each box and length, in a house your size I wouldn't worry about it. Your longest run(s) will be under 150ft which is well within spec of Cat6. To give you an idea, Cat6 can carry 4k Video at this length and even longer in some cases. Hopefully this gets you started. Post your questions and we can get you through this.
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Post by Bonzo on Apr 12, 2017 8:37:49 GMT -5
Wow, thanks guys! Already a ton of information. I'll get back with you soon. I'm all of a sudden busy today at work so no time right now to ask more. Thanks.
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Post by pknaz on Apr 12, 2017 10:43:52 GMT -5
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Apr 12, 2017 14:14:32 GMT -5
BonzoI wired my house for internet and cable as the electrician was running his electric wires while the house was framed but had no drywall. I ran wires to key locations I thought for sure would be the right places to have wall jacks. They all ran to a central location that I thought we be perfect to have be the "hub" of my system. There were some places I didn't need wires at the moment but thought I might...so, I put in a box in the wall with a solid cover plate over it, and I pre-drilled a hole in the framing and dropped a string down through into the crawl space below it...so if I ever needed to add a line there, I could take off the cover plate, connect a cable to the string hanging down, and pull it up into position. Great plan! But, as I finished my basement, as my needs expanded, and as I switched from using internet via a phone line to using cable...things changed in ways I could not have predicted. Net, I ended up running extra lines and set up the main hub differently. (Ah, the best laid plans...) What I ended up with is an incoming line from Spectrum (former Time Warner) that goes to their cable modem in my utility room (different than initial location as that used the phone line). A line goes out from that to a wireless router that is positioned centrally within my main floor to serve the whole interior of my house and even my outside deck/pool area with wifi. That router has 4 ports...1 goes to the old central location to an 8 port switch which feeds all of the old runs + some new ones I added as I finished the basement and had additional needs in 1 part of the house (thanks to learning how handy it is to have things like Xbox and Playstation hard wired for my son's needs). The others go to locations in which I added wall ports that are near the router. In 1 place, I even added a 2nd switch - a 4 port. That's near my home theater so I can have my STB, my Oppo 105, my XMC-1, a Sonos unit, and my HTPC all hardwired using the available lines I had run down there + the ports on the switch. I don't have all the wall ports in use at once, but I do have extras at strategic locations that are "hot" for future expansion and if I need to hardwire my work laptop for certain needs. For the cable, I bought a long spool for the initial wiring and added the connectors myself. For my expansion, I was thinking of doing the same thing, but...good ol' Parts Express sells lengths of cables with the connectors already attached for cheap...in various lengths and colors. I had no single line needing to be longer than 25', so I bought a bunch of 25' cables in as many colors as I could find. As I ran them, I recorded the colors and where they went to/from and made myself a map. This has been invaluable when I was troubleshooting an issue that came up (which turned out to be a dying couple of ports on an old router that suffered lightning damage). Another thing - Parts Express has nice wall jacks and wall plates. Given how close they are to you, take advantage of them! Good quality and fair prices. So, moral of the story...plan the best you can, but be prepared to evolve as your life does. And, make a map and leverage folks like Parts Express! Mark
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Apr 12, 2017 15:10:58 GMT -5
PS - is there any room partway down the length of the house where it might make sense to put a wireless router and have everything branch from there from its ports? It could be something like a laundry room or utility room. Or, with some routers, you could even easily wall-mount a router near the ceiling in a hallway.
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Post by Bonzo on Apr 12, 2017 15:15:59 GMT -5
Did some lunch time reading here, and the project I got assigned got put on hold, so I'm free here for a bit. Wow, what a wealth of great info. A few things are over my head but I'm going to take the time to do more research myself now that I have some guidance. I'm sure I'll be asking some VERY stupid questions, basic general questions, so please forgive me. It's funny, everyone I know comes to me regarding hooking up TV's and stereo's etc, but this computer schiit for me is like speaking a foreign language. It seems my deep dislike for computers just doesn't allow me to retain or comprehend things. Although I also think it's a computer geek conspiracy, to call such simple things a bunch of stupid names and acronyms to make it impossible for Joe Schmoe to figure it all out. It's like a spy game with code words. For starters, jlafrenz mentioned my house layout. I can post that here for now. Key rooms are the rec room and office. As for "central locations," the best one for me is the pantry, but the furnace/water heater closet in the hall could work with some effort. My thought is really that I don't care about spending a little more to have more wires, or multiple switches, or multiple access points, or range extenders etc. I just want it all to work well, and all network together enough so I can stream music and video, and get some "smart" home stuff to work. So if I have "dual" locations, that's perfectly acceptable to me. Central is not critical, I don't think. My most basic goal right now is two fold. #1. To have clean fast reliable wired communication between the office and rec room, with enough wires / equipment to hard wire everything I currently have, and the things I can think of that I might have in the future. #2. Good wireless throughout the house, but especially at the rec room side of things. Third would probably be to make sure I'm set up to get a SmartHub of some sort to start hooking up smart lights and smart door locks etc. From there, only desire and money would be the limit. I don't need everything that's for sure. But having an open attic ranch aides with everything except money spent on more cable, and if i do this first step right, should at least help a little with future add ons. Thanks guys!
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Post by Bonzo on Apr 12, 2017 15:16:57 GMT -5
ETHERNET Wiring Diagram.pdf (32.33 KB) Well, that didn't work. Let me try again. Be back in a second. EDIT #2: Oh wait, it did, it just doesn't show a preview. So above is a PDF, and below ins a JPG. EDIT: Okay, lets try this.
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Post by Casey Leedom on Apr 12, 2017 15:22:59 GMT -5
I wouldn't use your Furnace/Water Heater Room. Too much chance of having things overheat. But if you have to use that, you should think about putting passive vents at the bottom and top of the room out into a portion of you house which gets air exchange. And you may eventually need to put in a fan.
Casey
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Post by Bonzo on Apr 12, 2017 15:26:53 GMT -5
I wouldn't use your Furnace/Water Heater Room. Too much chance of having things overheat. But if you have to use that, you should think about putting passive vents at the bottom and top of the room out into a portion of you house which gets air exchange. And you may eventually need to put in a fan. Casey Agree, and due to the shape of my house, I really don't think it accomplishes much for me. I just attached a drawing.
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Post by Bonzo on Apr 12, 2017 15:36:04 GMT -5
PS - is there any room partway down the length of the house where it might make sense to put a wireless router and have everything branch from there from its ports? It could be something like a laundry room or utility room. Or, with some routers, you could even easily wall-mount a router near the ceiling in a hallway. Yes and no. I attached the drawing now so you can see. The pantry is my best room for a few other reasons other than actual centrality. Your first post really told me a lot and was mostly in lingo I could understand. Basically what I got out of your stuff the most is that it doesn't seem to matter where you put your switches. So in theory, I could just run one wire from the office to the rec room, put a big splitter there, then plug all the stuff into that. Same goes for the kithen - one wire to that area with a splitter at that location. I was wondering if that works just as well as having one huge splitter at the office, and then running a whole bunch of separate CAT wires to each component. It appears that at least in your case, it does. It's certainly much easier and cost effective that way.
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Post by Bonzo on Apr 12, 2017 15:44:34 GMT -5
Okay, my first really stupid question is for you pknaz. A guy at work and I tried to do 10 minutes of research on this. Let me see if I have this straight. In a minimalistic home wireless system there are basically 3 things. Modem Router Wireless Access Point When you get a device from the cable company, it's typically one device that has all 3 units in one, and is called a modem/wireless router. Kind of like having a Receiver in a stereo instead of separates? And then having them all separate would be like buying a pre-amp, a DAC, and an amp in a stereo system. Is this right? I'm trying to understand the difference between an access point and a wireless router.
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Post by Bonzo on Apr 12, 2017 16:03:45 GMT -5
You are on the right track with hard wiring everything. Wireless is getting better everyday, but I don't feel that it is as good as hard wired or a good main plan. It is a great back up plan. Agree 100%. I like wires!!!! Drawing is now attached so you can see. It's up a few posts from this one. I'm good here. I ran all my DirecTV coax 17 years ago when I was younger, and just did my in-wall stuff for the TV a few years ago. But this time I'm going to let my nephew do the attic walking. My body ain't cut out for that crap anymore. Other than making it easier for wires to slide in and out, is there any other reason? What I did with the coax wire years ago was pull it through the open cut out hole. Then I put it in the blue box, then I attached the "new work" box to the wall. But for this project, having it open like the orange box would make things much easier now, and in the future if I needed to make changes. Some good advice here. The only thing I might question since CAT wire isn't over the top expensive is precutting the wire. If I precut say, 10 wires at 100 feet, (or even do some preliminary measuring cutting with longer runs and shorter runs labeled) then I can run them all at the same time. I'll have trim off waste at the end, but it's not like this cable is $10 a foot. If I do one at a time out of a box then it's a ton of back and forth. No? Okay, so regardless of run length, I should be good then. Even full length runs are no problem. Excellent. Thank you much. I just want to make sure I do it all correctly and your input is very helpful.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Apr 12, 2017 17:12:37 GMT -5
PS - is there any room partway down the length of the house where it might make sense to put a wireless router and have everything branch from there from its ports? It could be something like a laundry room or utility room. Or, with some routers, you could even easily wall-mount a router near the ceiling in a hallway. Yes and no. I attached the drawing now so you can see. The pantry is my best room for a few other reasons other than actual centrality. Your first post really told me a lot and was mostly in lingo I could understand. Basically what I got out of your stuff the most is that it doesn't seem to matter where you put your switches. So in theory, I could just run one wire from the office to the rec room, put a big splitter there, then plug all the stuff into that. Same goes for the kithen - one wire to that area with a splitter at that location. I was wondering if that works just as well as having one huge splitter at the office, and then running a whole bunch of separate CAT wires to each component. It appears that at least in your case, it does. It's certainly much easier and cost effective that way. Yes...a few local splitters works fine. With any splitter, just put them "behind" your main internet source. So, for eaxmple, it looks like you have a cable line coming into to your house in the office...I assume there is a device (a "cable modem") from the cable company there that takes an RG6 cable into it, then runs RG6 out to your locations where you have TV's. And, based on what you said...I assume that also creates a wifi network that provides wifi through your house (most do, even though it is often a marginal wifi vs. what you can get outside them). And, the cable modem likely has an ethernet port out...which may be hardwired to your computer in your office. Right so far? If so, you could move the cable modem to another point in your house. But, if it is already wired via RG6 to your two TV locations, you would have to change wiring on those also. Net, I would leave the cable modem where it is for now. So then, the questions become: 1) what is the most efficient way to get hard lines to the kitchen and the rec room area? 2) do you want/need better wifi coverage? (Which may be possible with a non-cable company wifi router...) One option for #1 is to run an ethernet line from the office to the kitchen area near where your gear is located there, and run a line from office to the rec room near where the gear there is. Assuming your cable modem has 1 ethernet out, you would need a 4 port switch to provide 1 hardline to your office pc, at least 1 to your kitchen, and at least 1 to the rec room for whatever totals 4 ports. You could then have switches switches in the kitchen and rec room to serve those needs. But, you would need an electrical outlet available for each switch. And, you would have to buy 3 switches and your wifi won't be any different. Seeing the layout and what you say about losing wifi at the far end, here is what I would strongly consider... 1) run ethernet from office to a locatin in your library, your kitchen, or that furnace/water heater closet...preferably one of the first two. 2) get a kick butt new wireless router. My ASUS is awesome...fast, great reliability, reaches a long distance, and include wireless A/C and "beaming" technology. Totally rocks. Locate it wherever line #1 above terminates. 3) use the wifi router's output ports to send signals to other rooms. You could run 1 line from one of the router's ports to a switch right next to the router with the switch having "lots" of ports (they seem to come in multiples of 4...4/8/12/16...), And then run lines from each port of the switch to a multi-jack wall plate in the kitchen and a wall plate in the rec room. With an 8 port switch, that would give you 4 ports in the kitchen and 4 in the rec room...you could run wire for all 4/room now or later. Now, at this point, the wifi router typically has 4 ports...and you would have used 1 for the switch and 1 for the office...leaving 2 to spare. You could run those wherever you want...including to another switch either there or elsewhere for future needs. With this configuration, you end up hardwired where you need it now, have room to grow, and have kick but wifi. FYI, inmy house, the Spectrum cable modem has wifi built in. They set it up, but it sucks. I left it active. My Asus router creates a 2nd wifi network. We use it as it has the latest, fastest tech. Our devices all look to the Asus as first priority. If it is down, it tries the Spectrum wifi network. If the Asus is down and can't access internet but the spectrum is not, I know I need to reset the Asus. If both are down, I have an issue with Spectrum. In my case, Spectrum goes down more than the asus...by far. I hope that helps...if it doesn't make sense and you want to talk, PM me your cell # and I will call...happy to talk. Heading to scouts soon but will be home by 9. And will be home tomorrow after 6. Mark
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Post by scubadiver on Apr 12, 2017 18:54:55 GMT -5
Personally, I hate terminating cables.... can't stand it - and I've wired several data centers in my days.
For my own home, and even in my current two data centers, I pull pre-terminated cable. It's much faster, and companies like monoprice make it very affordable.
Additionally, the terminations are usually much cleaner than what you might be able to do on your own - especially if you are new to this...
I pulled preterminated CAT6 and I use keystone wall plates with female-female CAT6 keystones.
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Post by Casey Leedom on Apr 12, 2017 19:19:05 GMT -5
I agree that the Keystone Wall Plates are great, but pulling pre-terminated lines is a pain. The connectors hang up on everything and you have to select from a limited number of lengths. Buy a good termination tool and a tester.
Casey
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jlafrenz
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Post by jlafrenz on Apr 12, 2017 19:34:31 GMT -5
In you system you will have a modem, router and access point in that order. You can add multiple access points to create a wider spread network if you need. One access point will hand off the signal to another. Think of when you use a cell phone and travel. You keep going, but the signal stays connected as you go from cell tower to cell tower. It's the same concept. What happens behind the scenes is a little different, but really not important in this situation.
As far as running a single line and splitting it you can do this with a switch. I would try to minimize the number of switches you have. While you can run a switch off of another switch it is less than ideal. Those who work in IT on the board here might be able to shed a bit more light on the details of this.
Orange boxes are specified as low voltage which is TV, phone, data and comm wires. I only recommended a 2 gang box because I figured you would have multiple connections and would allow for the wire. If you decide to terminate into keystone jacks then a singe gang can get tight.
If you do pull out of the box and have a helper there really isn't much back and forth if any at all. You are simply just pulling the amount you need and cutting it off at the box end once you get the other pulled to where you want to go. Give yourself a bit of slack on each end when you pull and cut. The easiest way to do this is to make the "Hang 10" surfer sign and from your pinky to thumb will give you enough slack to work on the end of the wire if you are terminating it. Also, if you pre-cut wires, you may not know what you need to route around once you are in the attic and could come up short. While it may be 75Ft across the house, keep in mind you have to go up a wall and down a wall. This is going to add about 20ft on to each run assuming 8ft ceilings.
Pulling terminated wires may seem easier, but getting the fitting through a hole especially when you have multiple wires can be a real pain in the rear. It is no fun to be in an attic and fight a fitting. The other issue I see is if you get one too long then you are trying to stuff the excess back in the wall and create a mess and potentially kink the cable. To me it is much easier to pull raw cable and terminate. Terminating them isn't hard, but takes a little practice. Don't be tempted by the EZ feed through RJ45's (the fitting on the end of the Cat6) and tool. They seem to cause more issues than they solve.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Apr 12, 2017 20:08:10 GMT -5
Pulling pre-terminated is easy if you a) drill a big enough hole for the number of cables you plan to run (or drill a hole per cable) and b) use the right tools.
I use a hole that is at least 2x the terminated end...larger if I am feeding more than 1 cable.
And for tools, I have a nice fishing line that is fairly rigid metal. I tend to put the fishing line through the hole from either the bottom or top of the wall (wherever I have best access) and I run it up/down to the hole I cut for an outlet box and pull the fishing line into the room. Then, I put the pre-terminated end into a plastic bag (like a grocery bag), and I wrap the tool and garbage bag in tape (masking does fine...or duct tape if you feel the need) to secure the ethernet cable and its end to the tool. Then, I pull the tool slowly until the terminated end get near the hole...then ease the end through the hole. If I have more than 1 line to do, I like to drill 1 large hole and pull several strings up with the first cable. Then, I attach a new cable to each string and use the string to pull the rest through...saves multiple fishing expeditions.
Then, I use old work boxes, pull out the appropriate tabs and feed the loose ends of the cable into them, then install the boxes, connection the lines to the faceplate, and mount the faceplate.
As for piggybacking switches onto switches...it is best not to. But limited amounts are fine. The layouts I mention work fine.
To limit switches, the approach of a central wifi with 1 of its ports feeding an 8-port or more switch minimizes the need to have a switch onto another switch. 8-port switches are not very costly. As you go up in # of ports, there are fewer options and it seems like you don't get such good deals unless you get lucky.
Mark
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Post by klinemj on Apr 12, 2017 20:38:52 GMT -5
Ps, you can use pricier tools than this, but something like this works fine. I got one like this at Lowes or Home Depot. Works great. TOOL LINK HEREAnd, it looks like you have some interior walls where you can run the fishing line down. And, you should have easy access for drilling from the attic. So, get a 1.5" flat drill bit, drill one hole, run up to 4-6 cables through it. Easy...no problem pulling pre-terminated through that. I just checked parts express prices and they have some great deals on pre-terminated 25' and 50' on closeout right now. As far as putting kinks or bends in the cable...if you have 1 person in the attic and 1 person in the house, even if it is loose (not spooled or in a box)...you won't have any issue with feeding cable safely without bending/kinking it. Mark
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