KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jun 12, 2017 10:26:59 GMT -5
I'm afraid I have to disagree on that one.... well, about your conclusion anyway. You're absolutely right.... computers don't care about audio; to them "it's all just data bits". But then, that's all digital audio IS: data bits. There isn't really anything you can do that's "better" than delivering the data bits correctly. And computers do a really good job of delivering data bits without altering them or allowing errors to occur to them. Unless something is seriously wrong, any reasonably functional computer can deliver data via a USB cable with absolutely no errors. Now, in the real world, there are two other potential issues with computer audio: 1) The data has to arrive at THE DAC CHIP with accurate timing - which means a clock with very low jitter. Now, it's well known that the data clocks on the USB outputs of most computers aren't very good at all - and USB uses packets anyway. Luckily, most modern USB inputs on DACs are asynchronous, which means that the DAC provides the clock signal instead of the computer. Many DACs also take other measures to ensure that the clock that is applied to the DAC chip with the audio data is clean (otherwise known as "re-clocking"). 2) The ground and power lines in computers are often very noisy. (It's not really a flaw as such. Since the noise doesn't bother computer circuitry, nobody bothers to eliminate it.) This noise can sneak into the analog circuitry on some DACs and affect the sound quality. And, if the DAC doesn't do a good job of eliminating this noise, then it can be sensitive to the noise generated by some computers. As long as those two potential issues are handled (or eliminated) properly, a computer can be just as good an audio source as any other digital audio source. (And, yes, if your DAC is sensitive to those two issues, then a computer may not work as well with it as another source that expends the effort to fix them itself.) Perhaps you've heard the old saying about high quality gear revealing the weaknesses elsewhere in your system? Computers via a usb cable are not a high quality source. It is a lie that they can be. Windows and Mac OS don't care about the audio. Audio is secondary. |
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Post by novisnick on Jun 12, 2017 11:10:34 GMT -5
I don't remember enough from my time with it. But it may have to do with it locking on to the stream. If Audirvana turns off the stream when the track is done and rei-initializes it, maybe Schiit's relays will click again to lock on to the stream. The relay system switches only if the DAC detects a sample rate change. Just stopping the signal will not cause the relays to switch, they remain in "last state." So what's likely happening is the software is set to resample (likely up-sample) and then between tracks it shifts to 16/44 or whatever is the default for the software, then back again when the next track begins. Try turning off any re-sampling in the software - set it to pass-through or the equivalent. It should sound better that way in any case/ then I must have a problem in my system that NO Other piece of gear has detected. Ive played Tidal and AIFF files through the Yggy and got a click every time. No sample rate changes between tracks. I haven't a clue as to why. |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jun 12, 2017 11:21:53 GMT -5
The relay system switches only if the DAC detects a sample rate change. Just stopping the signal will not cause the relays to switch, they remain in "last state." So what's likely happening is the software is set to resample (likely up-sample) and then between tracks it shifts to 16/44 or whatever is the default for the software, then back again when the next track begins. Try turning off any re-sampling in the software - set it to pass-through or the equivalent. It should sound better that way in any case/ then I must have a problem in my system that NO Other piece of gear has detected. Ive played Tidal and AIFF files through the Yggy and got a click every time. No sample rate changes between tracks. I haven't a clue as to why. Using what software? |
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Post by novisnick on Jun 12, 2017 11:31:11 GMT -5
DYohn then I must have a problem in my system that NO Other piece of gear has detected. Ive played Tidal and AIFF files through the Yggy and got a click every time. No sample rate changes between tracks. I haven't a clue as to why. Using what software? Tidal was used through my Oppo 103 directly to Yggy and JRiver through MacMini to Yggy. |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jun 12, 2017 11:49:48 GMT -5
Tidal through Oppo to Yggdrasil. Oppo forces a down-mixed output via S/PDIF. make sure it is set to the highest limit, which is 192kLPCM according to page 62 of the owner's manual, and that it is not set to Bitstream.
Jriver. Using USB? Make sure Output Encoding is set to None.
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Post by Bonzo on Jun 12, 2017 12:00:25 GMT -5
It is a shame you have to leave it on all the time but if that is what the Doctor orders. I'm sure this is one very fine DAC. It certainly looks good!  And based on this crazy positive article alone, I'd buy it in a second if I had the funds. Mr. Harley is one of the true professionals in this business, and I'd trust his experience and opinion over just about anyone else's. At the very least enough to give it a serious personal listening to see if my ears agree. Speakers require it, and I think a DAC is right behind them. Which leads me to my big question / problem. I'm not sure what good a 15 day return policy does on something that, by their own admission, sounds like schiit for the first 30 days until its broken in and warmed up. How can anyone possibly judge the product in 15 days if it takes 30 days to reach it's potential? And does this mean even after owning it for a year left switched on, if the power goes out for 5 hours at my house, that it won't sound good for another 30 days until it's warmed up again? If the 30 days is more like a "break in" period, not a warm up, why doesn't Schiit do that on their time before shipping these things out? |
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Post by Axis on Jun 12, 2017 12:19:36 GMT -5
It is a shame you have to leave it on all the time but if that is what the Doctor orders. I'm sure this is one very fine DAC. It certainly looks good! And based on this crazy positive article alone, I'd buy it in a second if I had the funds. Mr. Harley is one of the true professionals in this business, and I'd trust his experience and opinion over just about anyone else's. At the very least enough to give it a serious personal listening to see if my ears agree. Speakers require it, and I think a DAC is right behind them. Which leads me to my big question / problem. I'm not sure what good a 15 day return policy does on something that, by their own admission, sounds like schiit for the first 30 days until its broken in and warmed up. How can anyone possibly judge the product in 15 days if it takes 30 days to reach it's potential? And does this mean even after owning it for a year left switched on, if the power goes out for 5 hours at my house, that it won't sound good for another 30 days until it's warmed up again? If the 30 days is more like a "break in" period, not a warm up, why doesn't Schiit do that on their time before shipping these things out? This is way above my pay grade. If I buy a $2500 DAC, I have done my homework and accepted those things that may be beyond my control. I will more than likely never buy this product for the fact it needs to be left on all the time. My decision should not be the reason for others not to purchase this. I figure when I am in the position to buy a $2500 DAC that there will be plenty that do my old tech ears good without having to be on all the time. I have this thing were I have to turn stuff off. I think it was my Dad yelling at us kids to turn those Damn lights out and shut that Damn door.  |
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Post by novisnick on Jun 12, 2017 12:58:16 GMT -5
I'm sure this is one very fine DAC. It certainly looks good! And based on this crazy positive article alone, I'd buy it in a second if I had the funds. Mr. Harley is one of the true professionals in this business, and I'd trust his experience and opinion over just about anyone else's. At the very least enough to give it a serious personal listening to see if my ears agree. Speakers require it, and I think a DAC is right behind them. Which leads me to my big question / problem. I'm not sure what good a 15 day return policy does on something that, by their own admission, sounds like schiit for the first 30 days until its broken in and warmed up. How can anyone possibly judge the product in 15 days if it takes 30 days to reach it's potential? And does this mean even after owning it for a year left switched on, if the power goes out for 5 hours at my house, that it won't sound good for another 30 days until it's warmed up again? If the 30 days is more like a "break in" period, not a warm up, why doesn't Schiit do that on their time before shipping these things out? This is way above my pay grade. If I buy a $2500 DAC, I have done my homework and accepted those things that may be beyond my control. I will more than likely never buy this product for the fact it needs to be left on all the time. My decision should not be the reason for others not to purchase this. I figure when I am in the position to buy a $2500 DAC that there will be plenty that do my old tech ears good without having to be on all the time. I have this thing were I have to turn stuff off. I think it was my Dad yelling at us kids to turn those Damn lights out and shut that Damn door. I too was reared to "turn that OFF" etc. but for what it costs ( little I think ) ill leave my DC-1 on till it dies of old age. Does it sound better being left on? It must but can't remember the experiment just the results. |
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Post by jh4db536 on Jun 12, 2017 13:08:13 GMT -5
Every yggy owner needs a UPS in case there is a power hiccup. The 2 seconds it took to unplug and replug this DAC cost a day in recovery for the lost clarity and congestion.😋  |
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Post by Loop 7 on Jun 12, 2017 14:15:32 GMT -5
Which leads me to my big question / problem. I'm not sure what good a 15 day return policy does on something that, by their own admission, sounds like schiit for the first 30 days until its broken in and warmed up. How can anyone possibly judge the product in 15 days if it takes 30 days to reach it's potential? I admire and respect Schiit's entire philosophy, model and sense of humor but the home trial period does seem too short. Seems like, for reasons you and others have noted, 30 - 45 days would be a lot better. I do think their restocking fee is appropriate since Schiit's assembly operation is in Southern California where salaries need to be higher. According to Schiit, a HUGE percentage of their total product sales are from their sub $100 products and to very young adults. Maybe Shiit will eventually adopt in-house burn-in like companies such as Zu Audio: "all Zu loudspeakers receive 600 hours of near soak test level burn-in" |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jun 12, 2017 14:24:28 GMT -5
Schiit does not advocate the myth of in-home "burn in" beyond the normal component burn-in that all good manufacturers do before they ship a component, which ensures the component is fully functional. They do however recommend that all their multibit DACs be left on all the time as they function best when they are at thermal equilibrium. The medical-grade DACs in Yggdrasil require about 72 hours of power on time to reach stability. Reports from users of "30 days" and talk of "burn-in time" are audiophool phoolishness. Gugnir multibit reaches full stability in about 3 hours, in my experience. So leaving them powered on is the best bet to have them ready for use. And momentary loss of power causing any issues is also foolishness. It's about temperature. They don't cool off that quickly.
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Post by Bonzo on Jun 12, 2017 14:49:06 GMT -5
Schiit does not advocate the myth of in-home "burn in" beyond the normal component burn-in that all good manufacturers do before they ship a component, which ensures the component is fully functional. They do however recommend that all their multibit DACs be left on all the time as they function best when they are at thermal equilibrium. The medical-grade DACs in Yggdrasil require about 72 hours of power on time to reach stability. Reports from users of "30 days" and talk of "burn-in time" are audiophool phoolishness. Gugnir multibit reaches full stability in about 3 hours, in my experience. So leaving them powered on is the best bet to have them ready for use. And momentary loss of power causing any issues is also foolishness. It's about temperature. They don't cool off that quickly. So going by what you are saying, of the 15 days trial, I need to spend at least 3 of them letting it warm up. Let's say 5 for good measure. So really, the trial period is more like 10 days, not 15. And if I don't want to get caught arguing with them due to potential shipping pick up issues (like I would never wait 30 days to ship something back to Emotiva, I'd ship back after around 20 or 25 at most to avoid any arguments), then I need to knock at least 2 or 3 days off that 10 so I'm down to 7 or 8 trial days. In the end I guess that's okay, but with this particular "most expensive" product, I think they should extend the trial to a full 30 days so there are more than 7 days (one weekend for most people) to actually try it at it's best. |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jun 12, 2017 14:58:25 GMT -5
I have no idea what Schiit's "trail period" is. I never buy gear with the intention that I might want to send it back.
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Post by Axis on Jun 12, 2017 15:01:48 GMT -5
Schiit does not advocate the myth of in-home "burn in" beyond the normal component burn-in that all good manufacturers do before they ship a component, which ensures the component is fully functional. They do however recommend that all their multibit DACs be left on all the time as they function best when they are at thermal equilibrium. The medical-grade DACs in Yggdrasil require about 72 hours of power on time to reach stability. Reports from users of "30 days" and talk of "burn-in time" are audiophool phoolishness. Gugnir multibit reaches full stability in about 3 hours, in my experience. So leaving them powered on is the best bet to have them ready for use. And momentary loss of power causing any issues is also foolishness. It's about temperature. They don't cool off that quickly. So going by what you are saying, of the 15 days trial, I need to spend at least 3 of them letting it warm up. Let's say 5 for good measure. So really, the trial period is more like 10 days, not 15. And if I don't want to get caught arguing with them due to potential shipping pick up issues (like I would never wait 30 days to ship something back to Emotiva, I'd ship back after around 20 or 25 at most to avoid any arguments), then I need to knock at least 2 or 3 days off that 10 so I'm down to 7 or 8 trial days. In the end I guess that's okay, but with this particular "most expensive" product, I think they should extend the trial to a full 30 days so there are more than 7 days (one weekend for most people) to actually try it at it's best. Your over thinking this Bonzo. You will know if this is right for you after a few days. I have been following the reports on a dozen or more of people that have purchased this DAC since it came out. Three days per DYohn has been what Schiit said about it and customers since this DAC came out. I do not just live in Emotiva land and all this about 30 days is just those nut balls out there that live to own a $20,000 cable that has been frozen. There are those who think really bizzare things that have no place in science with Audio gear. They have been around for the 50 years I have been into this stuff. They are now all over the internet with there Fake News ! |
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Post by Bonzo on Jun 12, 2017 15:08:29 GMT -5
I have no idea what Schiit's "trail period" is. I never buy gear with the intention that I might want to send it back. The article clearly says 15 days (with a restocking fee). Well, you may not have so much money that you don't have to think about things, but you certainly have more than me. For example, if I were trying to decide on choosing between 3 DAC's that cost $1000, $1500, and $2000, the one that had some sort of trial period would certainly head to the top of my list over the ones that didn't. And considering Schiit ones basically have to be bought "site unseen," I'm not sure I would even consider buying it without some sort of trial period or 30 DMBG. |
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Post by Bonzo on Jun 12, 2017 15:11:42 GMT -5
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Post by brubacca on Jun 12, 2017 15:12:44 GMT -5
There is still a restocking fee. So it is not a free trial.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jun 12, 2017 15:15:07 GMT -5
If I buy something that I end up not liking, that's what EBay, Audiogon and PM to Boomzilla is for. |
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Post by Axis on Jun 12, 2017 15:19:53 GMT -5
There is still a restocking fee. So it is not a free trial. Get a job ! |
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Post by Bonzo on Jun 12, 2017 15:20:08 GMT -5
If I buy something that I end up not liking, that's what EBay, Audiogon and PM to Boomzilla is for. is WAY too much of a tight A$$ with his money to buy a $2300 DAC. Not in a million years.    Those other things are options, yes, but they are more of a hassle, and they aren't any guarantee. |
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Perhaps you've heard the old saying about high quality gear revealing the weaknesses elsewhere in your system?Computers via a usb cable are not a high quality source. It is a lie that they can be. Windows and Mac OS don't care about the audio. Audio is secondary.
